Worries about PBL

I'm not a fan of lectures, usually switching of after about 6 minutes, so I think I would find a lecture based med school quite difficult. However, at least with a lecture based course you know exactly what you have to learn as you have done it in lectures, am I right?

The alternative is PBL, which in theory sounds great and suited to me, but since its the students who decide on learning objectives isnt there a chance that we could go off on tangents and miss out important topics that we actually need to learn? Or are we given a list of things we must stick to?

Being an organised person I like to know what Ive got to learn, so would a PBL course be suited to me?

If anyone can give me any information on their experiences of either PBL or lecture based med schools it would be a great help.

Thanks

Reply 1

Hygeia

14

inbetweener

I'm not a fan of lectures, usually switching of after about 6 minutes, so I think I would find a lecture based med school quite difficult. However, at least with a lecture based course you know exactly what you have to learn as you have done it in lectures, am I right?

The alternative is PBL, which in theory sounds great and suited to me, but since its the students who decide on learning objectives isnt there a chance that we could go off on tangents and miss out important topics that we actually need to learn? Or are we given a list of things we must stick to?

Being an organised person I like to know what Ive got to learn, so would a PBL course be suited to me?

If anyone can give me any information on their experiences of either PBL or lecture based med schools it would be a great help.

Thanks

I'm on a PBL based course and have had generally good experiences of it.

Learning outcomes: the way my uni does this is the the medical school staff prepare a list of learning outcomes that they think you should cover for the week and each group has a facilitator (PBL tutor) who has this list. The group then brainstorm and come up with their learning outcomes and the role of the PBL tutor is to try and make sure all the uni outcomes are covered, by guiding the brainstorm in the right direction if necessary. At the end of each week, we have wrap-up sessions where we are given the uni learning outcomes and we've usually covered all of them.
We do have lectures and semianrs alongside PBL so we get teaching on things as well to complement our own research.

Reply 2

michaela_banana

9

Here (a mixture) and I believe in many other unis, we are provided with a very explicit list of learning objectives at the beginning of each semester. It's up to the students to decide which we feel are sufficiently covered by lectures, which we want to develop through PBL sessions and which we feel confident enough to learn in our own time. To that extent, each group sets their own learning objectives in PBL. Each group will develop it's own ideas in PBL, some will do more therapeutics, some more social medicine, some more physiology, but you get taught how to do PBL, and every case should include pathology, relevant physiology, risk factors and causes of disease, treatment and prognosis, psychosocial considerations. Each to a lesser or greater degree.

As for the depth of knowledge needed to answer these questions, the learning objectives provided by the uni should be a guide, but basically it's up to you to guesstimate how important each is. Everyone here learnt in excrutiating detail the pathways of alcohol metabolism because it was our first PBL, only to be told later in the term the whole point of that case was to teach "process" - and so we'd effectively wasted our time (until we did have to learn it in 2nd year). Mostly, it will be obvious what is and isn't important.

In so far as going off on a tangent - PBL is supervised by a staff member (usually a retired Doc. or a PhD who has sheets upon sheets of info from the uni about what is and isn't expected from each case. If you diverge too far from what is expected, or miss something out, you will be dragged back on track.
Hope that helps.

Reply 3

username153949

2

PBL is students learning from other students, which initially i found to be the most stupid idea ever. Having gone through 2 terms of some pbl (my school is quite traditional but they do a little bit of pbl) i think if you have someone who knows what they are talking about in your group, it makes life a whole lot easier.

Reply 4

terpineol

14

I personally would avoid PBL like ebola on a skateboard.

It works if everyone in your group wants to do it.

Half of the people in your group will be at medical school X because it was the only place to give them an offer, and they thought the prospectus was pretty. At least two thirds of these people will turn out to hate PBL. Thus the sessions turn into an inane willy waving contest and the whole thing is a nightmare.

If lectures aren't your thing, go somewhere that puts up all the lecture slides and notes for you online (ie here), so the vast majority of the lectures you gain nothing from attending. That way you can learn in your own time in a suitably directed way.

Reply 5

dob86

At the end of the day, the Med school has to cover everything important that is set out by the GMC for fresh doctors. Every school has a different way of getting the message across but every graduate needs the same skills. So you won't miss out on info, vital to practise as the GMC wouldn't let it.

Reply 6

terpineol

14

dob86

At the end of the day, the Med school has to cover everything important that is set out by the GMC for fresh doctors. Every school has a different way of getting the message across but every graduate needs the same skills. So you won't miss out on info, vital to practise as the GMC wouldn't let it.

Although that is undoubtedly the case, I would say that learning in your preferred manner makes it far easier to ensure you cover everything set, improving your grades at the end of the day and overall performance.

I would also say that those people on PBL courses seem to moan far more about the impact of peers who are uninterested on their learning, than people on lecture based courses.

The be all and end all power of the GMC is perhaps not as huge as I always thought either. Apparently they have demanded we have an extra seven weeks a year due to the work being crazily compacted. The medical school have apparently told them in no uncertain terms to jog on over this.

The real test of learning seems to be at MRCP, the last time I found a paper on this lecture based learning seemed to have a significant edge if I remember rightly.

Reply 7

fatal

12

terpineol

I personally would avoid PBL like ebola on a skateboard.

It works if everyone in your group wants to do it.

Half of the people in your group will be at medical school X because it was the only place to give them an offer, and they thought the prospectus was pretty. At least two thirds of these people will turn out to hate PBL. Thus the sessions turn into an inane willy waving contest and the whole thing is a nightmare.

If lectures aren't your thing, go somewhere that puts up all the lecture slides and notes for you online (ie here), so the vast majority of the lectures you gain nothing from attending. That way you can learn in your own time in a suitably directed way.

wrong. willy wave in your own time, maybe try doing PBL before you assume.

Reply 8

beccy.

11

hmm my course is PBL and i like it!!

making sure you learn the right stuff depends on your tutor really - we have quite a good one this term who tells us when weve gone off on a totally random, irrelevant point and makes sure we dont spend hours looking at it. Last term our tutor wasnt really obvious enough and would never explicitally say 'what the hell are you on about that for?!' but just say 'i do not understand' to everything and 'but theyre YOUR learning objectives' if we asked if we needed to know everything, which often we did not.

Generally if you've missed something and the tutor hasnt picked up on it it'll happen to come up in conversation with another medic from another group who says 'i cant find anything on....' and then you look at it :smile:

but not when it comes to revising because youll find a friend in another group who says 'you haven't learned about *insert random thing youve never heard of here*?!?!?!' and you **** yourself.

it probably misses the point a bit but i think pbl at manchester would be mega improved by giving us a list of exact things we should have learned each term, like a syllabus or even just bullet points of the main topics, so we can at least check we know everything... but then i like lists and organisation so i would want that.
i wonder if we do and i just havent found it yet *waits for alex to come along and correct her...*

edit // i agree with the willy waving comments - got a girl this semester who has no concept of an 'indoor voice' and the most satisfying moments of pbl are when you prove her wrong... plus weve got boys who have little debates amongst themselves over irrelevant things to show off, whilst the rest of us sit there completely perplexed.. goodtimes.

Reply 9

mrs_bellamy

18

At Peninsula, the PBL facilitator has a list of learning objectives. They are supposed to guide our question making and give us hints if we've missed anything, but its usually pretty obvious what they main learning objectives are, and he reads out the list at the end of the 2 weeks to make sure. It is quite hard to tell how much detail to go into, and when I compare with my housemates, some of their groups complain about any sort of detail, and in some theres someone who wants to learn everything in 2 weeks and comes up with completely unrelated learning objectives. I've had 2 groups so far and have been pretty lucky because they were both good, yes there were some people who probably would rather not be there, but they tended to just keep quiet and let the rest of the group get on with it. I get quite a lot out of PBL, and find it so much easier to pay attention than in lectures. We do still have some lectures and other small group things, so its not like we have to teach ourselves everything, and we have LOADS of time for 'self-directed learning'.

I have to say I do partly agree with terpineol about the willy waving. 2 of the 8 people per PBL group get a professionalism 'excellent' and people will try so hard to show off to get this. I'm really not sure what its for, I'm sure its nice to have but it doesn't seem to count towards anything. I think PBL here would be so much better is they made professalism in PBL pass or fail, to stop this! It doesn't seem to make people work better, they just feel the need to make a lot of random contributions. My group are not where near as bad as some of the other supposedly are for this though.

PBL isn't perfect but I'm quite happy with it. I agree with beccy though I would like a list of what we need to learn. We have LSRC study guides which are supposed to tell us what life sciences to learn, but half of it is in the form of 'vignettes' (hate that word, its like a mini PBL case) so I find it pretty useless.

Reply 10

terpineol

14

fatal

wrong. willy wave in your own time, maybe try doing PBL before you assume.

Ah ha!

Here I shall slap my willy on the table so to speak, and point out our fortnightlyish PBL based patient scenario sessions.

Your move.

Hope glasgow is going alright.

Reply 11

fatal

12

terpineol

Ah ha!

Here I shall slap my willy on the table so to speak, and point out our fortnightlyish PBL based patient scenario sessions.

Your move.

Hope glasgow is going alright.

Well I'm gonna bang both my rather large boobs on the table and make the point that in the last 30 weeks (or whatever time) I've been doing PBL twice a week, everyone has preferred it to lectures, no-one has shown off particularly and we've covered everything necessary. :smile:

Reply 12

terpineol

14

fatal

Well I'm gonna bang both my rather large boobs on the table and make the point that in the last 30 weeks (or whatever time) I've been doing PBL twice a week, everyone has preferred it to lectures, no-one has shown off particularly and we've covered everything necessary. :smile:

Hello boobs...

Fair call, if you hit it very lucky with your PBL group apparently it can work well. Fingers crossed on your group next year.

Apparently the Glasgow course has improved since the pure PBL days, (we had a demon last year who swore had she gone to a lecture based course she wouldn't have ended up demoning. This was on the basis of the absence of any detailed neuroanatomy in their course, which became very troubling when she wanted to go into anesthetics)

That said, the girls here do seem to get on better with the PBL sessions, perhaps there is a gender divide. One did apologise the other day for all the girls in my group battling for control of the session.

AlexL has had similar issues with PBL to those I described (willy waving antics), as if I remember rightly did hygena last year. (both on pure PBL courses).

On a side note I've been trying to work out what people enjoy about PBL from a more serious line.

Most people seem to claim learning in ones on time and style, though on a lecture based course where all the materials and lecture notes are uploaded for you well in advance, there is almost no need to turn up to the lectures, you can just learn it from the materials provided. Almost removing the need for any contact time at all.

Hope the weather is as glorious on your side of scotland as this one, I'm struggling muchly to keep off the beach.

Reply 13

inbetweener

OP

Thanks everyone for their input its been really helpful. Keele and cardiff are 2 of my choices and their both really different so it helps to get other peoples views. Does anyone think the pbl tutors would let you have a copy of their objective lists at the end of the week if you asked them?

Also 'beccy' did you find out whether youre med school provides a sylabus list?

Reply 14

terpineol

14

inbetweener

Thanks everyone for their input its been really helpful. Keele and cardiff are 2 of my choices and their both really different so it helps to get other peoples views. Does anyone think the pbl tutors would let you have a copy of their objective lists at the end of the week if you asked them?

Also 'beccy' did you find out whether youre med school provides a sylabus list?

I'm not sure its still an issue, but I heard after I applied to cardiff that a certain amount of welsh learning was becoming compulsory.

Just incase that repulses you as it did me.

Reply 15

fatal

12

terpineol

Hello boobs...

Fair call, if you hit it very lucky with your PBL group apparently it can work well. Fingers crossed on your group next year.

Apparently the Glasgow course has improved since the pure PBL days, (we had a demon last year who swore had she gone to a lecture based course she wouldn't have ended up demoning. This was on the basis of the absence of any detailed neuroanatomy in their course, which became very troubling when she wanted to go into anesthetics)

That said, the girls here do seem to get on better with the PBL sessions, perhaps there is a gender divide. One did apologise the other day for all the girls in my group battling for control of the session.

AlexL has had similar issues with PBL to those I described (willy waving antics), as if I remember rightly did hygena last year. (both on pure PBL courses).

On a side note I've been trying to work out what people enjoy about PBL from a more serious line.

Most people seem to claim learning in ones on time and style, though on a lecture based course where all the materials and lecture notes are uploaded for you well in advance, there is almost no need to turn up to the lectures, you can just learn it from the materials provided. Almost removing the need for any contact time at all.

Hope the weather is as glorious on your side of scotland as this one, I'm struggling muchly to keep off the beach.

Boobs say hello.

I'm back in Ireland, and its gorgeous but I'm stuck inside doing immunity. The sky is such a pretty shade of blue.

Well I think PBL gives you a better sense of independence, finding books that suit you more and making notes in your own style. I also love the fact that I have very little contact hours, I can spend my early after noon running or baking or sleeping. If I had the notes handed to me I know for a fact that I'd just chuck them to one side and intend to read them at some point. The only problem I would have with PBL is the lack of tests, wierd I know but I would like more clear standards set.

Reply 16

terpineol

14

fatal

Boobs say hello.

I'm back in Ireland, and its gorgeous but I'm stuck inside doing immunity. The sky is such a pretty shade of blue.

Well I think PBL gives you a better sense of independence, finding books that suit you more and making notes in your own style. I also love the fact that I have very little contact hours, I can spend my early after noon running or baking or sleeping. If I had the notes handed to me I know for a fact that I'd just chuck them to one side and intend to read them at some point. The only problem I would have with PBL is the lack of tests, wierd I know but I would like more clear standards set.

Same here on the weather front.

I'm working through various bits of health economics, and heading towards a heap of stuff on the gastrointestinal system.

Freedom to choose books I guess makes a certain amount of sense, though if I'm honest I haven't had to open a single book thus far this year.

We get tested after every break but the summer one. This is frustrating as we effectively don't get any breaks aside from the summer holiday. This is more of a uni specific thing though I think, than course style.

I really like being able to pick up the notes, and knowing if you memorize it word for work you will get 95% or so, there are normally a few marks you will only pick up by reading around, put in there to reward the chinese kids.

Is it Glasgow or Aberdeen that has some kind of crazy cull of first years after the first set of exams? (one of them threw out 17 people last year at that point)

Reply 17

theatrical

5

beccy.

it probably misses the point a bit but i think pbl at manchester would be mega improved by giving us a list of exact things we should have learned each term, like a syllabus or even just bullet points of the main topics, so we can at least check we know everything... but then i like lists and organisation so i would want that