Law graduates face a bleak future at the bar
Source
Ouch
Did anyone know this before applying to do Law?
Do you think it will affect you?
I have a few friends who had essentially been lied to by their former teachers and now 4 years down the line are finding out about this hard truth. Do you think students should be made aware of this problem and is there a solution?
With 65 students applying for each training place, many would-be solicitors face not finding a job within the five-year post-graduation limit
Ouch
Did anyone know this before applying to do Law?
Do you think it will affect you?
I have a few friends who had essentially been lied to by their former teachers and now 4 years down the line are finding out about this hard truth. Do you think students should be made aware of this problem and is there a solution?
Scroll to see replies
I think most students applying to law are aware that there may be difficulties ahead, but you'll never know if you don't try.
I hate saying this, and I'll probably get negged to hell and back for saying it, but law graduates from higher ranking institutions have less to worry about. I'm not saying that to promote an elitist agenda either. I've seen enough to make such a conclusion.
I hate saying this, and I'll probably get negged to hell and back for saying it, but law graduates from higher ranking institutions have less to worry about. I'm not saying that to promote an elitist agenda either. I've seen enough to make such a conclusion.
Original post by Jimbo1234
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I have a few friends who had essentially been lied to by their former teachers and now 4 years down the line are finding out about this hard truth. Do you think students should be made aware of this problem and is there a solution?
I have a few friends who had essentially been lied to by their former teachers and now 4 years down the line are finding out about this hard truth. Do you think students should be made aware of this problem and is there a solution?
So you relied entirely on your teacher's opinions when deciding what degree/profession to get into? It would have taken you 30minutes of googling to find out that the bar is one of the most competitive and elitist professions to get into. Competition has been fierce for a long time, it is nothing new.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by tkane
So you relied entirely on your teacher's opinions when deciding what degree/profession to get into? It would have taken you 30minutes of googling to find out that the bar is one of the most competitive and elitist professions to get into. Competition has been fierce for a long time, it is nothing new.
I am talking about friends as I did engineering
Although I do not think this was as much as a problem 4-5 years ago and only now is this issue more widely known.......and yet for some reason the amount of Law undergrads is increasing 
Also I think there is a large difference between fierce competition and a market that has a 65:1 ratio of grads to jobs.Original post by JohnC2211
While this is a sad truth, a law degree is still a good degree to have, regardless of whether you actually end up in the legal profession.
True, but are many employers aware of this and what job opportunity would you end up with?
Original post by OmeletteAuFromage
Law degrees are completely and utterly pointless and lawyers are only a drain on society just as bankers are.
What rubbish:
a) A society with law needs solicitors and barristers
From crime to moving house, everyone will use one.b) If it was not for bankers and the Law firms, this country would be a failed cesspit that would make even Greece look wealthy in comparison.
80% of all QCs are Oxbridge graduates. The Bar is insanely elitist and it always will be, there are just too many people with a law degree. If you come out with anything below a 1:1 alone, it's incredibly difficult to get onto the bar even if you're at Oxbridge (Which equivalent being 2:1 ofc.)
However, if you put the effort into it and get as much work experience throughout the 3 years (not just in your 2nd and 3rd) and push yourself as hard as you possibly can, it won't be impossible. You'll have to have some good connections, a lot of work experience, mooting and all that jazz set up on your CV and applications, but it was never going to be an easy ride from the beginning.
However, if you put the effort into it and get as much work experience throughout the 3 years (not just in your 2nd and 3rd) and push yourself as hard as you possibly can, it won't be impossible. You'll have to have some good connections, a lot of work experience, mooting and all that jazz set up on your CV and applications, but it was never going to be an easy ride from the beginning.
The law society has been warning about the excess of graduates over training places for years... It's a perfectly good choice if you're interested in the law and want to join a gradscheme...
On another note op was claiming to be part way through both economics and physics degrees last year and is therefore an utter troll.
On another note op was claiming to be part way through both economics and physics degrees last year and is therefore an utter troll.
Original post by Jimbo1234
Source
Ouch
Did anyone know this before applying to do Law?
Do you think it will affect you?
I have a few friends who had essentially been lied to by their former teachers and now 4 years down the line are finding out about this hard truth. Do you think students should be made aware of this problem and is there a solution?
Ouch
Did anyone know this before applying to do Law?
Do you think it will affect you?
I have a few friends who had essentially been lied to by their former teachers and now 4 years down the line are finding out about this hard truth. Do you think students should be made aware of this problem and is there a solution?
The figures are pushed up by the go-nowhere-riffraff that come out of universities like Greenwich and London Met. While securing a TC with a 2:i+ from Oxbr/Durham/LSE/etc is by no means easy, those graduates are unlikely to fall on the wrong side of this 5 year race against time.
Original post by Sean9001
The figures are pushed up by the go-nowhere-riffraff that come out of universities like Greenwich and London Met. While securing a TC with a 2:i+ from Oxbr/Durham/LSE/etc is by no means easy, those graduates are unlikely to fall on the wrong side of this 5 year race against time.
But I know of people from good uni's such as Manchester who achieved a first and still have not progressed due to the extreme market saturation
If only a handful of uni's will actually get you anywhere, then the others should not offer the course.Original post by Jimbo1234
But I know of people from good uni's such as Manchester who achieved a first and still have not progressed due to the extreme market saturation If only a handful of uni's will actually get you anywhere, then the others should not offer the course.
If only a handful of uni's will actually get you anywhere, then the others should not offer the course.Have they been a graduate for 5 years +? I understand that times are hard, but to have literally gone nowhere suggests that they are doing something just plain wrong. As for your second point, I don't really agree. Even Oxbridge can't guarantee that their Economics graduates are going to get anywhere - by their standards meaning front office in IB Banks like JP Morgan. One of the greatest determinants of success is personality, so it is too simplistic to just associate getting somewhere with attending certain universities.
This does, however, remind us of the problems with devalued degrees. My personal view is that 'bad' universities should not be considered 'universities'. At the same time, they should not be able to issue degrees, but qualifications of the same 'level' under a different name. The sole purpose of this being to return value to degrees earnt by intelligent students, and to discourage wasting money on courses like Sports Science.
Original post by Xhotas
80% of all QCs are Oxbridge graduates. The Bar is insanely elitist and it always will be, there are just too many people with a law degree. If you come out with anything below a 1:1 alone, it's incredibly difficult to get onto the bar even if you're at Oxbridge (Which equivalent being 2:1 ofc.)
However, if you put the effort into it and get as much work experience throughout the 3 years (not just in your 2nd and 3rd) and push yourself as hard as you possibly can, it won't be impossible. You'll have to have some good connections, a lot of work experience, mooting and all that jazz set up on your CV and applications, but it was never going to be an easy ride from the beginning.
However, if you put the effort into it and get as much work experience throughout the 3 years (not just in your 2nd and 3rd) and push yourself as hard as you possibly can, it won't be impossible. You'll have to have some good connections, a lot of work experience, mooting and all that jazz set up on your CV and applications, but it was never going to be an easy ride from the beginning.
That's kind of missing the point. Collecting stuff for your CV is ok, but I would say that if you have the requisite academics, the most important thing is to be an impressive candidate in person and demonstrate in writing and with spoken word that you are an articulate and intelligent advocate, and easy to work with.
Original post by Jimbo1234
But I know of people from good uni's such as Manchester who achieved a first and still have not progressed due to the extreme market saturation If only a handful of uni's will actually get you anywhere, then the others should not offer the course.
If only a handful of uni's will actually get you anywhere, then the others should not offer the course.Having a 1st doesn't mean that you aren't a complete tool or aren't useless in the workplace. The market for trainee solicitors isn't wonderful, but it's nothing like as bad as people make out.
It's an absolute fact that most solicitor candidates get training. Not the tiny minority like with those hoping to be called to the bar.
If you have good academics from a "good" university, I would suggest that the main reason for failing to get on in law would be down to personal failings. You might not come across well or you might have an attitude that is counter to the particular firms where you are applying.
Original post by Jimbo1234
But I know of people from good uni's such as Manchester who achieved a first and still have not progressed due to the extreme market saturation If only a handful of uni's will actually get you anywhere, then the others should not offer the course.
If only a handful of uni's will actually get you anywhere, then the others should not offer the course.There are plenty of benefits to having a good degree, even if you don't go into the most obvious career paths. Anyone with social skills, extra-curricular activities and a good Law degree from a good university should be able to make it to a decent graduate job. Such opportunities aren't exactly abundant at the moment, but someone with a First in Law from Manchester should be in with a good shot.
Also, other factors, like social aptitude, will affect success. Everyone's got their favourite Schadenfreud story about the Oxbridge graduate who failed miserably to get a job, but that graduate may well have had the interview skills of a dead cow.
Original post by Clip
It's an absolute fact that most solicitor candidates get training.
It's an absolute fact that most solicitor candidates get training.
This makes the assumption that the only people intending to be solicitors are those who take the LPC.
Only about 15-20% of law graduates ever get training contracts though obiously, not all ever want to be lawyers and plenty have given up on the idea by the time they leave university.
(edited 11 years ago)
Is it just me that thought 'the bar' was an actual bar where you get drinks and stuff? I was expecting a joke.
my knowledge is lacking.
my knowledge is lacking.Original post by Clip
Having a 1st doesn't mean that you aren't a complete tool or aren't useless in the workplace. The market for trainee solicitors isn't wonderful, but it's nothing like as bad as people make out.
It's an absolute fact that most solicitor candidates get training. Not the tiny minority like with those hoping to be called to the bar.
If you have good academics from a "good" university, I would suggest that the main reason for failing to get on in law would be down to personal failings. You might not come across well or you might have an attitude that is counter to the particular firms where you are applying.
It's an absolute fact that most solicitor candidates get training. Not the tiny minority like with those hoping to be called to the bar.
If you have good academics from a "good" university, I would suggest that the main reason for failing to get on in law would be down to personal failings. You might not come across well or you might have an attitude that is counter to the particular firms where you are applying.
To clarify, the people I know where also socially able, competent at interviews, and had experience. There simply are just not enough jobs in the market for them.
Original post by Jimbo1234
To clarify, the people I know where also socially able, competent at interviews, and had experience. There simply are just not enough jobs in the market for them.
So you've watched them in interview I presume? And of course know exactly what the grad recruitment partners were looking for. Have you worked as a graduate recruitment partner yourself I presume to get this insight?
I'm not sure who you're talking about. You/the article mention the bar (Advocates and barristers) which yeah is insanely competitive but the quote and article talks about solicitors...
Original post by Jimbo1234
To clarify, the people I know where also socially able, competent at interviews, and had experience. There simply are just not enough jobs in the market for them.
That's what 95% of candidates think about themselves, so how you are applying that accurately to your friends, I don't know.
It's already been said here. If you're talking about the bar - sure - no-one could be under any illusions that it's insanely competitive, and the most likely outcome will be failure. For solicitors, it's completely different. It might be tough, but if you meet the minimum requirements, the most likely result will be success.
Original post by Clip
That's kind of missing the point. Collecting stuff for your CV is ok, but I would say that if you have the requisite academics, the most important thing is to be an impressive candidate in person and demonstrate in writing and with spoken word that you are an articulate and intelligent advocate, and easy to work with.
Obviously that is to be taken into account and not taken for granted, but just getting your application to be viewed and considered or even pooled requires a lot of effort. The bar isn't going to interview every candidate it gets, the CV needs to stand out. If it doesn't stand out, it's going to be put in the bin like so many others. You can be an amazing speaker and candidate, maybe even perfect. But if your CV doesn't have the relevant experience, it's not going to get close to an interview.
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