Law Students - Chat Thread

Original post by Norton1

If it's anything like Renton and Brown in Scotland Blackstone's would work well.

I realise this may be one of the least helpful posts ever made on this thread.

I found some stuff in Archbold that looks relevant. Bizarrely I have a moot on something which is not 'substantive law' at all - the question is basically whether if the police issue a conditional caution they can subsequently change their mind and prosecute, or if that will fall foul of the rule that you can't be convicted for the same offence twice and be an abuse of process.

Reply 2763

Norton1

18

Original post by Forum User

I found some stuff in Archbold that looks relevant. Bizarrely I have a moot on something which is not 'substantive law' at all - the question is basically whether if the police issue a conditional caution they can subsequently change their mind and prosecute, or if that will fall foul of the rule that you can't be convicted for the same offence twice and be an abuse of process.

DPP v Alexander? I assume this is the articvle you've found already but if not then this looks quite interesting.

This argument may be queried, most of all by reference to Jones v Whalley [2006] UKHL 41, where the House of Lords decided that it was an abuse of process for a private prosecutor to bring a charge when the police had administered a caution for the same offence. Understandably Nicol J. relied on this case as support for regarding a caution as presumptively a final disposal. But importantly, Lord Rodger conceded in Jones itself (at [23]) that the case was not a true *Arch. Rev. 5 case of legitimate expectations, since the private prosecutor could not be said to have been bound by any misleading impression given by the police caution. It might be added that there was also no evidence as to what the defendant had understood to be the effect of the caution.

DPP v Alexander: case with comment

Reply 2764

Original post by Norton1

DPP v Alexander? I assume this is the articvle you've found already but if not then this looks quite interesting.

DPP v Alexander: case with comment

Yeah, I found both Alexander and Jones v Whalley mentioned in Archbold. It seems like my moot is on all fours R v Gore & Maher, even down to the injuries suffered by the victim. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, I guess it means that if the opposition don't find that case then we are in good shape.

Reply 2765

gethsemane342

11

Original post by Forum User

Anyone know a good book to explain the principles of 'autrefois convict'? Specifically whether someone who has been cautioned for an offence can be charged with the exact same offence? Blackstone's Criminal Practice perhaps?

Archbold is probably the best. Sprack on procedure will give an explanation of it as will Hungerford-Welch's book.

Jones v Whalley [2006] is the relevant case at the moment (so far as I know) although I seem to recall Gore and Maher [2009] has some discussion of it.

Abuse of process in general - see DPP v Maxwell [2011] and Warren v AG for Jersey[2011].

Reply 2766

Just learnt a bit about bailments - guess there will be no whipping for me!

The new BPTC aptitude test sounds horrendous as well. They are planning to send us off to driving test centers to test our skills on a bloody computer!!

Reply 2767

Original post by gethsemane342

Archbold is probably the best. Sprack on procedure will give an explanation of it as will Hungerford-Welch's book.

Jones v Whalley [2006] is the relevant case at the moment (so far as I know) although I seem to recall Gore and Maher [2009] has some discussion of it.

Abuse of process in general - see DPP v Maxwell [2011] and Warren v AG for Jersey[2011].

Thanks - found them all now. My case is almost identical to Gore & Maher, the only difference is that Gore was given a penalty notice, and my defendant was given a conditional caution, which on second thoughts is a relevant distinction. But at least I have plenty of material to make a skeleton argument now :smile:

Did you cover this stuff in a module on Evidence/Procedure at degree or is it something you've done on the LPC?

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 2768

gethsemane342

11

Original post by Forum User

Thanks - found them all now. My case is almost identical to Gore & Maher, the only difference is that Gore was given a penalty notice, and my defendant was given a conditional caution, which on second thoughts is a relevant distinction. But at least I have plenty of material to make a skeleton argument now :smile:

Did you cover this stuff in a module on Evidence/Procedure at degree or is it something you've done on the LPC?

I did Jones v Whalley and Gore v Maher in Criminology and Sentencing. I did autrefois and abuse of process in CPE (even wrote an essay in my exam on the effect of Maxwell and Warren on the law. Concluded it with a terrible cricket reference. Didn't get into the examiner's report :frown:

)

Reply 2769

nulli tertius

21

Original post by zaliack

Just learnt a bit about bailments - guess there will be no whipping for me!

The new BPTC aptitude test sounds horrendous as well. They are planning to send us off to driving test centers to test our skills on a bloody computer!!

Isn't that the same as the LNAT?

Anyway, the ability to make a three point turn has always been one of the chief skills of the bar.

Reply 2770

tehforum

20

Halp.

Can I discuss Fairchild v Glenhaven services in widening the "bounds of duty" - per Denning, Spartan Steel v Martin & Co?

Or can I not because the duty has already been established, and therefore this particular case is about causation?

If I can't discuss it, then can someone tell me a case where the bounds of duty have actually increased the responsibility of the defendant?

Cheers.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 2771

Original post by tehforum

Halp.

Can I discuss Fairchild v Glenhaven services in widening the "bounds of duty" - per Denning, Spartan Steel v Martin & Co?

Or can I not because the duty has already been established, and therefore this particular case is about causation?

If I can't discuss it, then can someone tell me a case where the bounds of duty have actually increased the responsibility of the defendant?

Cheers.

Not to sure what you mean (because I'm hopeless at tort just now). Are you talking about incremental increases in the widening the scope of the duty? If that's the case, then you have to argue that it is 'just, fair and reasonable' to extend the scope.

Umm.. Don't know any cases for increased responsibility, but isn't the general rule that the higher the risk, and the higher the damage, then the higher the standard of care needs to be?

Reply 2772

Original post by tehforum

Halp.

...can someone tell me a case where the bounds of duty have actually increased the responsibility of the defendant?

Cheers.

I'm not sure I understood the question either. But I assume you're referring to this passage in Spartan Steel: "At bottom I think the question of recovering economic loss is one of policy. Whenever the courts draw a line to mark out the bounds of duty, they do it as matter of policy so as to limit the responsibility of the defendant".

So if you want some examples of that responsibility increasing, why don't you pick some cases where the ambit of the duty of care in regards to economic loss was extended? Negligent misstatement type cases are the most obvious candidates - Hedley Byrne, Spring v Guardian Assurance, for example? Another example might be White v Jones.

Reply 2773

tehforum

20

Original post by Forum User

I'm not sure I understood the question either. But I assume you're referring to this passage in Spartan Steel: "At bottom I think the question of recovering economic loss is one of policy. Whenever the courts draw a line to mark out the bounds of duty, they do it as matter of policy so as to limit the responsibility of the defendant".

So if you want some examples of that responsibility increasing, why don't you pick some cases where the ambit of the duty of care in regards to economic loss was extended? Negligent misstatement type cases are the most obvious candidates - Hedley Byrne, Spring v Guardian Assurance, for example? Another example might be White v Jones.

"At bottom I think the question of recovering economic loss is one of policy" was not included in the question as we haven't covered pure economic loss.

So really, I need any where where the ambit of the duty of care in regards to policy was extended.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 2774

Original post by tehforum

"At bottom I think the question of recovering economic loss is one of policy" was not included in the question as we haven't covered pure economic loss.

So really, I need any where where the ambit of the duty of care in regards police was extended.

Hmm, well I already mentioned Swinney v CC Northumbria, that's appropriate here. Maybe the 'suicide in custody' cases could be other examples? Kirkham v CC of somewhere, Reeves v CC of Metropolis. Leach v CC of Gloucestershire on duty to prevent psychiatric harm to 'appropriate adults'. Duty to investigate alleged crime in a reasonable way - L v CC Thames Valley. Other random police defendant cases, Costello, Donachie, hmm, Alcock but don't think those latter three are great examples.

I replied before you edited police to policy :smile:

So all my examples are 'police' defendants.

Reply 2775

tehforum

20

Original post by Forum User

Hmm, well I already mentioned Swinney v CC Northumbria, that's appropriate here. Maybe the 'suicide in custody' cases could be other examples? Kirkham v CC of somewhere, Reeves v CC of Metropolis. Leach v CC of Gloucestershire on duty to prevent psychiatric harm to 'appropriate adults'. Duty to investigate alleged crime in a reasonable way - L v CC Thames Valley. Other random police defendant cases, Costello, Donachie, hmm, Alcock but don't think those latter three are great examples.

I replied before you edited police to policy :smile:

So all my examples are 'police' defendants.

So sorry!

Reply 2776

Two mini-pupillage rejections in one day. I feel so spoiled :smile:

Reply 2777

Original post by zaliack

Two mini-pupillage rejections in one day. I feel so spoiled :smile:

I still have that to look forward to - waiting till I get my results from the 'summer term' next week before starting to make applications.

Reply 2778

Original post by Forum User

I still have that to look forward to - waiting till I get my results from the 'summer term' next week before starting to make applications.

It's such joy. You put your heart & soul into an application, and you get a generic 'unusually high number of applicants', 'more high quality applicants' and 'this rejection shouldn't put you off applying for a full pupillage'. Hopefully you'll have better luck :tongue:

Reply 2779

Tortious