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Woman raped at 3am by a sick nasty rapist after getting thrown off the bus...

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    (Original post by minimarshmallow)
    I don't agree it should be out of his own pocket, but I do agree that if they're so much under late at night they should be able to be let on, or if there's a cash machine nearby and it's late at night they should be given time to go get some more money (and presumably if everyone else had already paid he'd even have the £15 change if she could only get a £20 note).
    Reducing the fair to say £4.80 leaves the situation where someone might be 20p short of that, what then?
    I can't see how else they could have a passenger getting on for a reduction as part of company policy though

    (Original post by dizzy09)
    The article doesn't assume you're guilty :rolleyes:
    It assumes that, unless you're having sex with people who don't want sex, you'll see point ten as irrelevant. But hey, women should be forced to constantly consider the risk of being raped; why shouldn't men be forced to consider the possibility their actions are rape?
    How can you say that? The article ends with "Do not rape".

    There's no possible way of knowing that.
    Well then you can't know that giving advice on how to avoid being raped doesn't work.

    Again, domestic abuse doesn't always come before rape in a relationship. In the cases where it does, a lot of DV victims don't connect what's happening to them as domestic abuse.



    Oh, crikey... She can avoid being raped... :rolleyes: Really
    This is effectively saying that if a woman gets raped, it's partly her fault for not seeing the warning signs. Again, what are these magical warning signs?




    No, I'd rather see 100% of responsibility put on the rapist. Not "Oh, rape survivor didn't do this, that, x, y, z or call the pope to confess his or her sins on the way home... She should take some responsibility..." yada yada... Every time you say a woman should do x, y or z to prevent a rape, you're saying she should take some responsibility should a rape happen.
    Can you stop bringing this up? I'm saying some rapes will be predictable, you're saying no rapes are predictable, and you're saying that I'm saying all rapes are predictable. Also, I think it says more about you that you so want to put blame/responsibility on a victim if they could have taken precautions - I on the other hand can point out precautions yet still put all the blame on the criminal if there is a crime.

    Another thing, how can you give out the advice to women to not be walked home by male friends because they're more likely to rape you than prevent a rapist? That's the very thing you're arguing against, if true.
    On a side note, I'm assuming you haven't heard of John Worboys, the black cab rapist? Try telling his survivors they should take a licensed cab at night; they did.
    No, I haven't actually. However, I'd ask you this, are you more likely to be raped in a random unlicensed cab, or in a random licensed one? If the former, then staying away from unlicensed cabs will reduce your risk.



    May I refer you to this? It's a bit of an eye opener, uneasy reading, and extremely triggering. Women in porn are routinely raped for entertainment. And it has a knock on effect.
    That doesn't answer my point that it is consensual. How can it be rape if they agree?

    That article defines pornography as "material that combines sex and/or the exposure of genitals with abuse or degradation in a manner that appears to endorse, condone, or encourage such behavior" so I am not surprised that the article concludes that porn under that definition encourages abuse/degradation. You might as well say "We define blahblah to be stuff that encourages abuse, and our study shows that blahblah encourages abuse". The author has changed the meaning of porn to include only the bad porn, in order to dupe the reader into thinking all actions under their own definition of porn (the generally accepted definition) are bad.
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    (Original post by dizzy09)
    Two problems with this.

    Women are more likely to be raped by someone they know. So if they rely on a man to see them home safely, they're statistically at a greater risk (I believe it's 10-15% of rapes carried out by strangers, as opposed to 85-90% carried out by someone the survivor already knew)

    So, to reduce this risk, they'd have to rely on a female friend to escort them home. How does said female friend get home? :rolleyes:

    This is why telling women to take steps to protect themselves is a double edged sword.

    How about: Men; if you think you're likely to rape someone tonight, ask a friend to accompany you home to make sure that you don't? (Or stay in, away from people... Much preferred)
    A few problems with this....

    1. I said FRIENDS, not "someone they know". Obviously this person should be trusted (whether guy or girl). I know about the date rape statistics, but surely you're not trying to imply it's better to go out alone, NOT with anyone, or only strangers, than friends? Again, I said FRIENDS, this does not have to necessarily mean men, but should be someone who has a good friend on your shoulders.

    Are you suggesting that women should not meet ANYONE because they are more likely to be raped by someone they know? Because this is the only logical conclusion to your little theory.

    2. The friend simply stays over with them for the night until the morning. I've done this (stayed over) and other people have stayed over by mine as well until the morning. Obviously

    3. That men should not rape is obvious, and I said first up that the ONLY one to blame here was the rapist. That does NOT mean that people should not take precautions to keep themselves safe. No one should not break into my house, yet I lock my doors every night, and would advise people to do the same.

    People who try naively suggest that giving advice about hot to stay SAFE are in someway encouraging crime annoy me.
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    (Original post by Theturnbull9)
    Enlighten me.. As a business, you would rather refuse the £4.80 (for it being 20p short) than take the £4.80 for the seat?

    Source: BA International Business Management

    (Original post by Bobifier)
    The bus driver is a low level employee of the bus company. The company could tell him that he is allowed to use his discretion, but this basically deregulates him and opens the bus up to anyone the bus driver feels like letting on. The alternative is just to tell him not to let anyone on who doesn't have the fare, and the loss of £4.80 is entirely worth maintaining regulation over the drivers for.

    And seriously, if your university taught you that the business world is that simple, you should take your degree back.


    What Bobifier said.
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    (Original post by Chief Wiggum)
    And equally, the bus driver is not to blame just because the woman ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    He's to blame for having a lack of compassion, but nothing legally was wrong with what he did if that's what you mean. Sometimes it would be nice if people did more than just the bare minimum and help each other out, but alas in this case it did not happen. This bus driver really didn't help the stereotype of jobsworths.
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    (Original post by SpicyStrawberry)
    He's to blame for having a lack of compassion, but nothing legally was wrong with what he did if that's what you mean. Sometimes it would be nice if people did more than just the bare minimum and help each other out, but alas in this case it did not happen. This bus driver really didn't help the stereotype of jobsworths.
    Well if you say that, then surely you think the woman was to blame for not having sufficient money?

    Really, blaming anyone except the rapist is completely wrong in my opinion.
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    (Original post by Chief Wiggum)
    Well if you say that, then surely you think the woman was to blame for not having sufficient money?

    Really, blaming anyone except the rapist is completely wrong in my opinion.
    If you read the post I made originally properly, you'll see I clearly said the rapist is the one to blame, but the bus driver (and passengers) should have had a conscience and helped her.

    As I also said before, the woman offered to go to a cash point to get the extra money, and it's common for people to mistake the amount needed for bus fare because it varies across companies and journey lengths. For the sake of a measly 20p was it really appropriate to kick her off the bus? It's not like she tried skipping the fare.

    All I seem to be getting from you is that the woman is mainly at fault and the rapist is a consequence, I do hope you're not suggesting the woman deserved to be attacked.
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    (Original post by SpicyStrawberry)
    If you read the post I made originally properly, you'll see I clearly said the rapist is the one to blame, but the bus driver (and passengers) should have had a conscience and helped her.

    As I also said before, the woman offered to go to a cash point to get the extra money, and it's common for people to mistake the amount needed for bus fare because it varies across companies and journey lengths.

    All I seem to be getting from you is that the woman is mainly at fault and the rapist is a consequence, I do hope you're not suggesting the woman deserved to be attacked
    .
    What?!

    That's not what I think at all. I think the rapist is the ONLY person responsible, not the woman, passenger, or driver. I think I made that pretty clear when I said "
    Really, blaming anyone except the rapist is completely wrong in my opinion." How you think me saying "blaming anyone except the rapist is completely wrong" is somehow me saying the woman "deserved to be attacked" leaves me seriously questioning your intelligence to be perfectly blunt.

    You, bizarrely, seem to think it's not only the rapist's fault, but also the driver and passengers, but for some mysterious reason best known to yourself, you leave out the woman and only blame the driver and passengers. I blame none of these groups.
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    (Original post by Chief Wiggum)
    What?!

    That's not what I think at all. I think the rapist is the ONLY person responsible, not the woman, passenger, or driver.

    You, bizarrely, seem to think it's not only the rapist's, but also the driver and passengers, but for some mysterious reason best known to yourself, you leave out the woman and only blame the driver and passengers. I blame none of these groups.
    Oh dear. I think you need to re-read what I wrote originally to be honest, you seem to have misunderstood me. It's a bit of a joke you're insulting my intelligence, you need to take a step back and think about what you're saying. You keep on saying "surely the woman is to blame for being in the wrong place at the wrong time", how is that not putting blame on her exactly?

    This is what I originally put, to save you the trouble of being pedantic:

    (Original post by SpicyStrawberry)
    Stories like this make me very angry. While it's the rapist's fault for attacking her, the bus driver could have just let the woman go to a cash point like she asked to get the extra bus fare, or to save even more time, one of the passengers could have shown a bit of compassion and coughed up a measly 20p. 20p is nothing. The bus was already running late because the driver would have had to speak to the woman and deny her boarding, so why couldn't he have just let her on?

    I understand that bus drivers get in trouble for not taking the correct fare, but 20p is such a small amount it shouldn't have been a problem. If it were me driving that bus I'd have just paid it for her, because walking alone at night can be dangerous, and look what happened.
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    I would have given her 20p >:
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    (Original post by SpicyStrawberry)
    Oh dear. I think you need to re-read what I wrote originally to be honest, you seem to have misunderstood me.

    This is what I originally put, to save you the trouble of being pedantic:
    Yes, and following your own reasoning, the woman could also have brought extra money, couldn't she? Yeah, she offered to go to a cashpoint, but bringing additional money would have avoided the problem too. As would, as you say, the driver letting her on.

    The point is, all these things are completely unpredictable. In any way suggesting the woman/driver/passengers were at fault is completely wrong IMO. This is all discussed with the benefit of hindsight.

    I don't believe the woman/driver/passengers should be criticised at all; it is the fact that you are criticising the driver and passengers, but NOT the woman that confuses me. Either criticise all or none.
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    (Original post by Chief Wiggum)
    Yes, and following your own reasoning, the woman could also have brought extra money, couldn't she? Yeah, she offered to go to a cashpoint, but bringing additional money would have avoided the problem too. As would, as you say, the driver letting her on.

    The point is, all these things are completely unpredictable. In any way suggesting the woman/driver/passengers were at fault is completely wrong IMO. This is all discussed with the benefit of hindsight.
    I think the bus driver and passengers are morally at fault, yes. They have to live with the fact that had they given her the 20p so she could get home safely, she wouldn't have been attacked.

    I'm tired of this petty argument now, you lost any respect I had for the discussion when you childishly insulted my intelligence. Quote someone else in future, don't unpick everything I've said then backtrack when I say you've tried to place blame on the woman for not having the correct money (which is a common problem).
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    (Original post by SpicyStrawberry)
    I think the bus driver and passengers are morally at fault, yes. They have to live with the fact that had they given her the 20p so she could get home safely, she wouldn't have been attacked.
    Are you morally obliged to do people favours? If you go out of your way to help someone out it's a good thing, but it's not a bad thing to not do so.
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    (Original post by SpicyStrawberry)
    I think the bus driver and passengers are morally at fault, yes. They have to live with the fact that had they given her the 20p so she could get home safely, she wouldn't have been attacked.

    I'm tired of this petty argument now, you lost any respect I had for the discussion when you childishly insulted my intelligence. Quote someone else in future, don't unpick everything I've said then backtrack when I say you've tried to place blame on the woman for not having the correct money (which is a common problem).
    This is an argument? I thought it was a discussion.

    I think my comment was justified given that I literally wrote "blaming anyone except the rapist is wrong", and you replied saying "All I seem to be getting from you is that the woman is mainly at fault and the rapist is a consequence". I mean, that is literally the complete opposite of what I wrote.

    The reason why I brought up the woman having insufficient money as a contributory factor is that if you believe the bus driver's actions were a major contributory factor, you'd surely, if you were being consistent, have to acknowledge that the woman's were as well?

    As I don't believe the bus driver's actions were wrong (hindsight etc etc etc), then I don't believe the woman was in the wrong in any way.

    But as you do seem to be suggesting that the bus driver was wrong, I am confused as to why you don't seem to be suggested that equally, the woman not having enough money was wrong. As you say, if they had given her 20p she wouldn't have been attacked. But equally, if she'd brought the 20p herself, she wouldn't have been attacked.

    I personally do not believe the woman's lack of money was to blame; the reason why I kept mentioning it in my quotes to you was that if you are focussing on the driver and passengers not letting her on (which I personally am not), I think, in the interests of being consistent, you should be focussing on her lack of money. It seemed a lack of consistency on your part.

    (Sorry for overuse of italics)
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    (Original post by DynamicSyngery)
    What does the bus fare have to do with it? It's not like every time someone cant afford a bus the assumption is they're going to be raped walking home.
    It's to make people feel bad.


    (Daily Mail).
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    (Original post by Chief Wiggum)
    This is an argument? I thought it was a discussion.

    I think my comment was justified given that I literally wrote "blaming anyone except the rapist is wrong", and you replied saying "All I seem to be getting from you is that the woman is mainly at fault and the rapist is a consequence". I mean, that is literally the complete opposite of what I wrote.

    The reason why I brought up the woman having insufficient money as a contributory factor is that if you believe the bus driver's actions were a major contributory factor, you'd surely, if you were being consistent, have to acknowledge that the woman's were as well?

    As I don't believe the bus driver's actions were wrong (hindsight etc etc etc), then I don't believe the woman was in the wrong in any way.

    But as you do seem to be suggesting that the bus driver was wrong, I am confused as to why you don't seem to be suggested that equally, the woman not having enough money was wrong. As you say, if they had given her 20p she wouldn't have been attacked. But equally, if she'd brought the 20p herself, she wouldn't have been attacked.

    I personally do not believe the woman's lack of money was to blame; the reason why I kept mentioning it in my quotes to you was that if you are focussing on the driver and passengers not letting her on (which I personally am not), I think, in the interests of being consistent, you should be focussing on her lack of money. It seemed a lack of consistency on your part.

    (Sorry for overuse of italics)
    That is a lot of italics!

    I do see your point, but since the woman tried her best to resolve the issue herself and was still rebuffed I don't feel that she is at fault for the circumstances that meant she had to walk instead. There is only so much you can do, but it does mean that people should plan their journey in enough time and ensure they have the correct amount of money should you run into a pedantic bus driver. He's only doing his job, but since it was such a minute amount of money I don't feel he was morally right for kicking her off the bus at night where services are much less frequent.
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    This is how I see it:

    - The bus driver is not at fault. After all not everyone who gets refused a bus journey will end up being raped. Perhaps he had a reason to refuse her, maybe she was kicking off about not being allowed on the bus or perhaps she was too drunk. The media are extremely capable of making the public believe what they want them to believe and knew if they mentioned she was being rude/drunk then the public would sympathise less with her. That being said, I do believe bus drivers, when faced with this sort of situation, should use basic common sense (and compassion for that matter) and let the girl on the bus.

    - The passengers are not at fault. If she was being rude and mouthy who would want to lend her 20p? But again, people should have used their common sense and compassion and have lent her the money.

    - It's not the girls fault - although! She should have been more responsible. Why would any one walk the streets alone on a dark night? Has she not seen an episode of Crimewatch?! She knew her mum was on her way and so should have waited somewhere responsible where she could be clearly seen (like a takeaway shop that was still open).

    - Men like this are not only opportunists but predators. He saw an opportunity and took it. If it hadn't of happened to this girl then it would of happened to another. He didn't just one day decided to rape a girl. He would of thought about it over and over again - even fantasized about it (trust me I study psychology so I know). It was just unfortunate that her circumstances led it to herself being the victim.

    Anyway, my heart goes out to the girl, her family and everyone else affected.
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    (Original post by Fusion)
    Also that doesn't bode well.
    Not being able to remember the exact amount you owed doesn't mean her story is not credible... I mean if I had been raped the last thing on my mind would be whether I needed 20p or 17p
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    WOW, TSR really will blame a woman for rape under any circumstances

    I thought you lot were meant to be educated?
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    (Original post by beansprouts)
    - The bus driver is not at fault.

    - The passengers are not at fault. If she was being rude and mouth....

    - It's not the girls fault - although! She should have been more responsible. Why would any one walk the streets alone on a dark night?
    No he is a ****, even the bus drivers where I live don't chuck a drunk girl off a bus over a few pence.

    I didn't read anything about her being rude and mouthy... where did you get that BS from?

    She was going to meet her mum, so why not? she didn't have to stand in on ****ing area where she could of been raped there too... either way she was walking or standing into danger.
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    £5 for a bus fare? ****ing hell

    but yh it's sad, i find it hard to believe that no one on the bus had a 20p coin :rolleyes:
Updated: December 19, 2012
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