This discussion is now closed.

Check out other Related discussions

There is every need for feminism in the UK

Not really, just highlighting a double standard. If as you claim, feminism is all about equality, and not female advantage, they would be marching on the streets demanding equal rates of car insurance.

The fact that they are not says it all, that they are just as happy to reap the benefits where inequalities exist in their favour.

You do realise that insurance costs are determined by risk factors don't you

Or do you honestly believe that we should all pay the same as the newly licensed driver of a sports car who lives in an high crime area

Reply 21

Fullofsurprises

OP

20

Original post by TenOfThem

You do realise that insurance costs are determined by risk factors don't you

Or do you honestly believe that we should all pay the same as the newly licensed driver of a sports car who lives in an high crime area

Please, don't interrupt marcus's relentless campaign to prove that biological determinism dictates all gender relations!

Reply 22

hexagon999

13

Original post by Fullofsurprises

I'm just sayin'.

Please don't just come out with random statements without supporting your view, this thread seems quite pointless :tongue:

Reply 23

Fullofsurprises

OP

20

Original post by hexagon999

Please don't just come out with random statements without supporting your view, this thread seems quite pointless :tongue:

I was seeking to mock the thread just below it. Of course there are a zillion good reasons and doubtless some will be brought out in the discussion.

For me, feminism is more like a way of thinking about how women can release themselves from any undue boundaries set to what they can achieve or enjoy, where those boundaries are false and to do with unreal views of gender.

Reply 24

marcusfox

16

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Not really, it's just the workings of the car insurance system - women did not actually campaign for it one way or another, at least, not as a mass activity - I can't right now recall what the trigger was on that one, wasn't there an EU legal case on it?

Yes, the EU decided it was illegal.

However, for all the years I have lived that feminism has existed, I can't for the life of me remember any feminist campaign for more expensive car insurance. Perhaps you can be of service?

Come to think of it, I can't think of any feminist campaigns for more support for male victims of domestic violence either - oh, yes, that's right, according to you they don't exist.

Reply 25

cant_think_of_name

15

Original post by dendodge

Why does feminism even need to be a thing with its own name?

Sure, women have some things pretty bad - the wage gap, for example. And it totally sucks.

But there are also things men don't have so good: In about 95% of cases, the non-resident parent in a divorced couple is male, so we're a heck of a lot more likely to get our children taken away from us. And men are the only people who can commit rape, according to the law - so if a girl gets me too drunk to give informed consent and has her way with me I have no legal course of action.

There's no way we can achieve equality by fighting for a single group and ignoring another. Feminism is necessary, but so is masculism or whatever it's called when it goes the other way; and the only way either group is going to get anything done is if they stop being separate groups and start just being gender equality activists instead.

You win. End of thread

Reply 26

marcusfox

16

Original post by TenOfThem

You do realise that insurance costs are determined by risk factors don't you

Or do you honestly believe that we should all pay the same as the newly licensed driver of a sports car who lives in an high crime area

Oh my.

Funny how nature and biological differences (testosterone) can be used as an argument in this case, but not in other situations where it's the other way around, unless you want to be called a misogynist.

You're in favour of men being charged higher premiums because they are statistically more likely to claim. Would it be fair to charge black people higher premiums if they were statistically more likely to claim. Or gay people?

That's a strange way of being 'for equality'.

To me it would mean that you should not expect to be entitled to (or to accept) preferential treatment - whether that be lower insurance rates or being the preferred candidate for an employment opportunity - for no reason other than your gender (or race or sexual orientation).

After all, women have been arguing for years that there is no good reason for both sexes not to be treated the same in the name of feminism.

If it was the other way around the feminist argument would be "it's not fair that gender should have come into premium calculations – plenty of young males females are safe, cautious drivers, and plenty of young females males are tearaways. Why should either be judged on gender?"

Unfortunately 'feminsm' has become a dirty word nowadays because for many of its supporters at least it has become synonymous not merely for campaigns for equality but supporting privilege for women over men. You undoubtedly show yourself to be in favour of gender discrimination when women are put at an advantage.

Reply 27

+ polarity -

21

Original post by a729

I guess women and men paying the same for insurance is a good step in the direction of equality!

Original post by marcusfox

Is that before or after feminists campaign for more expensive car insurance for women?

Original post by Snagprophet

Definitely pissed that they did it by charging more for women instead of reverting the original male rates back down.

Original post by kunoichi

becuase men are always campaigning to make things worse for themselves are they?

No

So dont expect women to do it.

Original post by dendodge

Why does feminism even need to be a thing with its own name?

Sure, women have some things pretty bad - the wage gap, for example. And it totally sucks.

But there are also things men don't have so good: In about 95% of cases, the non-resident parent in a divorced couple is male, so we're a heck of a lot more likely to get our children taken away from us. And men are the only people who can commit rape, according to the law - so if a girl gets me too drunk to give informed consent and has her way with me I have no legal course of action.

There's no way we can achieve equality by fighting for a single group and ignoring another. Feminism is necessary, but so is masculism or whatever it's called when it goes the other way; and the only way either group is going to get anything done is if they stop being separate groups and start just being gender equality activists instead.

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Not really, it's just the workings of the car insurance system - women did not actually campaign for it one way or another, at least, not as a mass activity - I can't right now recall what the trigger was on that one, wasn't there an EU legal case on it?

Original post by Martyn*

Which wave of feminism? The one that fought for women's rights or the (later) one that set women against men?

Original post by Fullofsurprises

I was seeking to mock the thread just below it. Of course there are a zillion good reasons and doubtless some will be brought out in the discussion.

For me, feminism is more like a way of thinking about how women can release themselves from any undue boundaries set to what they can achieve or enjoy, where those boundaries are false and to do with unreal views of gender.

Spoiler

Reply 28

a729

16

Original post by Snagprophet

Definitely pissed that they did it by charging more for women instead of reverting the original male rates back down.

Well they're a business aren't they and on top of it people have to buy their insurance however much they charge because the law is so stict!

I think there should be greater regulation as quotes of around 2-7k for car insurance is frankly unaffordable for most (young) people

Reply 29

TenOfThem

18

Original post by marcusfox

Oh my.

Funny how nature and biological differences (testosterone) can be used as an argument in this case, but not in other situations where it's the other way around, unless you want to be called a misogynist.

You're in favour of men being charged higher premiums because they are statistically more likely to claim. Would it be fair to charge black people higher premiums if they were statistically more likely to claim. Or gay people?

That's a strange way of being 'for equality'.

To me it would mean that you should not expect to be entitled to (or to accept) preferential treatment - whether that be lower insurance rates or being the preferred candidate for an employment opportunity - for no reason other than your gender (or race or sexual orientation).

After all, women have been arguing for years that there is no good reason for both sexes not to be treated the same in the name of feminism.

If it was the other way around the feminist argument would be "it's not fair that gender should have come into premium calculations – plenty of young males females are safe, cautious drivers, and plenty of young females males are tearaways. Why should either be judged on gender?"

You seem to be confusing fairness with a business model

Reply 30

Fullofsurprises

OP

20

Original post by dendodge

There's no way we can achieve equality by fighting for a single group and ignoring another. Feminism is necessary, but so is masculism or whatever it's called when it goes the other way; and the only way either group is going to get anything done is if they stop being separate groups and start just being gender equality activists instead.

I agree that men need some better things in their lives and a movement around that would be no bad thing - the trouble is, that so far, what movements there have been tended to focus on a misplaced sense of victimhood - for example, around the results of custody battles - rather than on what men, to some people's minds, really need - more emotional liberation, a chance to escape from the rigidities of work drudgery and a new way of looking at their roles as things like fathers and husbands. Many young guys seem to me to still be stuck in looking at us only as sex objects and the huge volumes of pornography available seem to have a profound negative effect on men and on men/women relations.

Reply 31

Pigling

8

Original post by dendodge

Why does feminism even need to be a thing with its own name?

Sure, women have some things pretty bad - the wage gap, for example. And it totally sucks.

But there are also things men don't have so good: In about 95% of cases, the non-resident parent in a divorced couple is male, so we're a heck of a lot more likely to get our children taken away from us. And men are the only people who can commit rape, according to the law - so if a girl gets me too drunk to give informed consent and has her way with me I have no legal course of action.

There's no way we can achieve equality by fighting for a single group and ignoring another. Feminism is necessary, but so is masculism or whatever it's called when it goes the other way; and the only way either group is going to get anything done is if they stop being separate groups and start just being gender equality activists instead.

Personally (as a gender equalist and a feminist) I would like to agree that I find that figure disturbing. But I'd also like to suggest that this is more complex than "men get their children taken away" - you are assuming that this isn't a situation many men don't automatically expect (due to their own belief that women are better parents), are happy with or even want. Or that it may result from, again, the gendered expectation that the woman is or should be the predominant parent, leaving couples making decisions which ultimately make that the case - in which case you might expect a greater proportion of women to be the most appropriate parent in a separation, if that makes sense? Although don't mistake me and think I am suggesting institutionalised discrimination against men in this regard doesn't exist.

I agree that a wider perspective of gender equality and non-gendered thinking is important. But I disagree that feminism is a negative concept. It was the feminist movement, imo, that really awoke the whole concept of gender egalitarianism and opened the debate on male and female roles and expectation. Additionally, feminism as in specifically focusing on female rights and female representation (particularly in society/ the media) is an interesting and valid lens, which can happily accompany a matched support for the equivalent issues for men.

I'm going off on a tangent here, but I feel there is still this subconscious feeling that to be male is default, whereas to be female somehow isn't? I'm finding this difficult to explain(!), and I'd be happy to listen to the argument that this is my own internalised feeling and not a wider societal issue. But I think there is a truth in it, a certain culturally ingrained idea about women as a sort of female-person, and not just a person. It's even in the language - we have man, mankind and then we have "wo-man" a modified man. Lol I'm rambling here and I'm not trying to suggest that the word woman is offensive and shouldn't be used etc, I just think it's easy to underestimate the depth of these issues.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 32

leah_morgan

Original post by venenecinema

Why?

Why? Because even though women have the right to vote and free speech, things aren't equal.

-We don't get equal pay for doing the exact some jobs as men
-We live in a culture where the victim of rape is blamed for their attack
-We have to fight for the right over our body. I know we are legally allowed to have an abortion in the UK, but it' a lengthy process and causes a lot of distress. I don't care if you're pro-life. Every woman should have the right to choose what's going on in their bodies
-We're abused for wanting equality, we're abused for going against the 'women in the kitchen' stereotype because some misogynistic men believe that's where we belong *
-woman are the ones who are 'slut shamed' for having many sexual partners, whereas men who've had many sexual partners and don't receive the same criticism.

the list goes on.

*Note: Not ALL men are misogynists, I do know that.

Reply 33

Tabzqt

all white cis males on this thread should CHECK THEIR PRIVILEGE!

I'm a strong independent black womyn who don't need no man.

Reply 34

miser

20

PRSOM, but you are right. For as long as women do not have the same freedoms as men, there will exist room for improvement.

Reply 35

marcusfox

16

Original post by kunoichi

becuase men are always campaigning to make things worse for themselves are they?

No

So dont expect women to do it.

And there I was believing the theory that feminism doesn't mean 'advantage for women' but 'equality for women' as we are routinely told by feminists. :wink:

If feminists want equality, they will argue for equality. But what is obvious, they actually don't give a stuff about anything but improving women's issues under the underlying subtext of equality. After all, what kind of bigot could be against equality?

Such feminists obviously don't care about men's issues so why should men care about any you highlight?

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 36

venenecinema

16

Original post by leah_morgan

Why? Because even though women have the right to vote and free speech, things aren't equal.

-We don't get equal pay for doing the exact some jobs as men
-We live in a culture where the victim of rape is blamed for their attack
-We have to fight for the right over our body. I know we are legally allowed to have an abortion in the UK, but it' a lengthy process and causes a lot of distress. I don't care if you're pro-life. Every woman should have the right to choose what's going on in their bodies
-We're abused for wanting equality, we're abused for going against the 'women in the kitchen' stereotype because some misogynistic men believe that's where we belong *
-woman are the ones who are 'slut shamed' for having many sexual partners, whereas men who've had many sexual partners and don't receive the same criticism.

the list goes on.

*Note: Not ALL men are misogynists, I do know that.

And what about the many disadvantages that men face? Feminism in its current form does nothing for equality.

Reply 37

PolarBearSlayer

1

Original post by Fullofsurprises

I agree that men need some better things in their lives and a movement around that would be no bad thing - the trouble is, that so far, what movements there have been tended to focus on a misplaced sense of victimhood - for example, around the results of custody battles - rather than on what men, to some people's minds, really need - more emotional liberation, a chance to escape from the rigidities of work drudgery and a new way of looking at their roles as things like fathers and husbands. Many young guys seem to me to still be stuck in looking at us only as sex objects and the huge volumes of pornography available seem to have a profound negative effect on men and on men/women relations.