Should I apply to Oxford for economics and management?

Hi, I'm a Year 12 student and I wanna apply for a degree with Economics. I found Economics and Management the most interesting, and I am thinking of applying to other UK universities as well. However, my parents really want me to apply to Oxbridge. I would love to go to Oxford, but I do not think that I am capable. My predicted grades is AAA (this is not finalised) in maths, chem and econs. On top of that, the higher education team in my college says that it is compulsory for me to take further math in order to get into oxford for e&m because it is so competitive. What do you think?

You get 5 choices so ultimately applying to Oxford will not do you any harm if you pick 4 other, attainable choices! You never know what might happen, so if you want to apply you can always try and see what happens

1) Why do you want to do a degree in economics? Its v competitive at top universities and many find the course itself quite boring.
2) You really need predictions close to A*A*A and excellent GCSEs ( comparable to PPE where 9-10 A*s are competitive. See page 4: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/418434/response/1021097/attach/2/Pattison%20Ltr%20and%20Information.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1
3) Don't need further maths for Oxford but will need it for economics at Cambridge, LSE and *maybe* UCL. For joint degrees like economics and geography etc or PPE its not necessary.
4) Will need to do really well on the TSA which is the entrance exam.

1) I believe my passion for Economics came from:
(i) my curiosity of the world: why certain things work a certain way (eg why a certain product can be priced so much higher but still receive such high levels of demand). I would say I prefer the business component of economics, rather than the political component, though I still enjoy macro a lot too.
(ii) the frequent discussions I have with my dad, which made us even closer
I like the e&m course because it is a mixture of economics and other components (eg accounting, finance, management etc) which I find very interesting because it will be more enjoyable and it will expand my knowledge and skills.
2) The most important part of the application is the grades right?

i mean tbh i was just making sure you weren't picking it to become an investment banker/work in finance since there are better degrees for that in the UK and you don't need to study economics to work in that industry - you can study any degree, including some you might find more interesting, and be equally as competitive when trying to become a banker etc.

2) Hard to say, the oxford application is split in 2 stages. Pre-interview and post interviews. Pre-interview the most important thing is: TSA score, GCSE/cGCSE grades and A-level grades. This will decide if you get an interview or not. Post interview the only important factor is interview performance.

i mean tbh i was just making sure you weren't picking it to become an investment banker/work in finance since there are better degrees for that in the UK and you don't need to study economics to work in that industry - you can study any degree, including some you might find more interesting, and be equally as competitive when trying to become a banker etc.

2) Hard to say, the oxford application is split in 2 stages. Pre-interview and post interviews. Pre-interview the most important thing is: TSA score, GCSE/cGCSE grades and A-level grades. This will decide if you get an interview or not. Post interview the only important factor is interview performance.

2 questions,
Firstly what other degree from Oxford would prepare u to go into banking/IB? I assumed it must be at least somewhat mathematical and can't be something like Law etc

2nd, how important are GCSEs in getting an interview? I have six 9s and two 7s (I'm in the top 5 high achievers in my cohort, only 3-4 students got 7A* and 1 student got 8A*) Would I be competitive, and if so should I start prepping for an oxbridge application now?

1) Yeah I get what you mean. Honestly, I don’t know what kind of industry I want to join after university. What are the few degrees? I also decided to take econs cause I would say I’m not extremely good in sciences like biology and physics, and at the same time, I’m not extremely good at other social sciences like history. Econs is a balance for me.

2) Hmm I understand. I know it’s Oxford for a reason but wow the application is so tough.

3) As for further math, do you think i’ll be disadvantaged if I don’t take it since the applications are so competitive?

4) Are TSA’s difficult? I know that I will only need to take Section 1 for e&m.

1) You need to know more about finance for me to answer this. Generally people only spend 2 years at an investment bank and then leave to do better paid jobs such as private equity and hedge funds. Ofc a minority will stay and rank up through the investment bank but most will try to leave to better opportunities. Investment banking is split between front office, middle office and back office. Front office is what you are aiming for and consists of: Investment banking division (IBD) Sales and trading (S&T) and research. For the first 2 years all have the same salary of around 50k at top banks but the bonuses tend to be different, i think 60-80k is probably the total compensation for IBD which tends to be the highest (and most competitive) paid. IBD is good because even though they work you like a dog (100 hour weeks) for 2 years, it opens up the most doors for you to go into (called exit opportunities).

S&T is very specialised but allows you to lateral into very specific types of hedge funds (traders at hedge funds make millions and many billionaires are billionaires because they were or are hedge fund managers.) Same with research but research has very few spots. IBD and research really don't care what degree you do trust me, the way applying to investment banks works is that they literally look at the university you go to and based off of that will decide whether or not you get an interview. Sales and trading might prefer STEM applicants but not significantly. The best courses at Oxbridge for finance tend to be engineering/Maths/Computer science/physics etc since they open ALL doors including prop shops which are a very specialised financial insitution that trade equities using highly advanced maths and algorithms. Investment banking is NOTHING like this so you don't need a mathsy degree but for prop shops you really do.

2) Yeah I mean some oxford courses are more competitive to get into than others but study what you find interesting.
3) For Oxford? No. Normally they outline a subject as "recommended" if they think you will be less competitive. Oxford's econ and management is very different to just economics at cambridge, ucl or LSE. The course at oxford is a lot more essay-based with less mathematical elements.
4) Varies between people, its designed to force you to think rather than apply knowledge you have randomly learnt. Some people will be great at it from the get go, others will struggle a lot. Just start practicing as soon as you can to get better.

1) Wow, idk how they work exactly but I’ll def research and read more about it. I don’t think I’ll do banking or consulting, cause as you said, you’ll work like a dog....but not sure, too early to tell and do open up many opportunities. What do you think of something with the environment? Such as developing change for businesses to transition into something more sustainable. If you get what I mean haha, I’m not so sure, heard it somewhere.

3) Really? I expected it to have more mathematics actually, since there’s accounting, finance and etc.

4) Did you do it? Or if not, do you know anyone who did it? I know that the questions test on critical thinking and problem solving, but idk how they are exactly. I’ll look into it.

But the application process is so much more rigorous, do you think "just trying out" will be a waste of my time and effort if I don't get it?

1) Like i said, most people only do 2 years of that hell and then switch to something with better hours and pay but tbh most high paid jobs will have longer hours, its just investment banking where 100 hour weeks aren't unheard of. Environmental policy/business solutions is a pretty rewarding and interesting job, economics and management will set you up nicely for that.

3) Accounting and finance isn't too mathsy tbh, you'll use some advanced equations but a lot of the theory isn't much more than GCSE/A-level maths. The maths intensive aspects of economics comes from other modules where you basically are using/learning university level mathematics but are using it in an applied context. At oxford you also do management with an even split so the course is less maths-intensive and they will have supplementary maths classes to improve your ability like PPE does. Economics (excluding the modules you mentioned ahahah) can get very mathsy like - rivalling university level maths but at Oxford they prepare you for it anyway and there's naturally less of it involved since your degree is split 50/50 with management.

4) I did the BMAT since i originally applied for medicine, section 1 of the BMAT is pretty much identical to section 1 of the TSA but a bit harder so use bmat section 1 papers to practice too.
For reference I didn't get to finish my test due to computer issues (covid meant it was done on computer) so I don't know how well I will have done since I literally did maybe 25%? I'm an A*A*A*A* student but cannot do standardised tests very well (like american ones, TSA, BMAT etc) but my brother who got AAB was very good at them. Its completely random, i didn't do much practice either so couldn't get better but that's the only advice i can give: Practice, practice and practice some more.

nothing is a waste if you want to do it! maybe you won’t get in but if you wanted to try, it isn’t a waste! if it’s more a goal of your parents rather than your own however, i’d recommend not ‘wasting your time’ as you said yes and focusing on the universities you would actually want to go to, as yes oxford will take up a lot of your energy

3) Hmm yeah I understand, I read and researched a little bit more and realised that there is not much maths in the e&m degree in oxford, as compared to an econs degree in lse, let's say. That being said, do you have any tips to improve and develop my thinking and writing skills? What I mean by this is forming my own opinions on global issues. I heard that during the interviews, they ask very random questions and aim to see your thinking and creative skills to form your own argument. I know that I am not good at this because I always find myself struggling to form my own opinion on daily issues. Should I just read and listen more? Will that really help, especially since application due dates are so close.

4) Noted, thanks for the tip!

After lots of thinking and discussions, I've decided to apply to oxford for e&m! I do realise that it's likely that I won't be accepted but I still do wanna try. The application process is extremely tough because I will have so many other things to prep under a shorter period of time, but I will def learn a lot, including time management, critical thinking, problem solving and many others. I am honestly so so nervous about the workload because I already have so much on my plate and I am starting late (as compared to my classmates who are applying to oxbridge), but it is a good learning experience.

Having said so, do you have any resource (book/ page/ podcast/ newspaper etc) recommendations for e&m? I found the oxford reading list online but I was just wondering if you might want to recommend any, maybe even on a specific economist and his/her beliefs (like Adam Smith for example??)? I quite like the business component, rather than the political component, however, I am still open to any. At the moment, I have only read 2 books (will def increase my reading time ;-: one on environmental economics, and the other in behavioural economics. I found behavioural economics very interesting but I want to expand my knowledge.

Thank you for your encouragement tho, the student room community is so encouraging and useful.

3) Disclaimer: I'm going to be studying Chemistry with Mathematics at UCL next year (deferred entry) and pretty much only value degrees in STEM so I cannot tell you everything about an E&M application; that being said at some point in year 11/12 I heavily wanted to do PPE so researched around the course and economics a lot hence why ik about it. Generally being able to think critically comes from understanding how an argument logically flows. What is the assertion, assumption, flaw, conclusion and premise (you will need to be able to identify these for the TSA btw). I would honestly practice talking to yourself about modern day issues; as sad as it sounds I used to do that all that time since I naturally loved debate at some point. Worth noting that being able to think and express yourself need not align with your own personal views, much of PPE (and E&M) is understanding the strengths of opposing views and being able to argue them as if they were your own. Just practice talking about something when you have time.
Wider reading always helps and I find myself linking ideas to books I've read years ago naturally. If you're struggling to form augments maybe do some reading about critical thinking and stuff.

There are some key economic principles I would attempt to learn about if I was you; Game Theory (and nash equilibrium by consequence) is a pretty prominent aspect of economics that is used by businesses and policymakers around the world and can get quite mathematical at times. It blends in with philosophy but is a core component of economics. Externalities was another principle I found interesting when I went to a summer school at Cambridge, understanding how decisions made in one industry/party can outwardly impact others is a very good exercise in lateral thinking and logical progression whilst being very important today - ranging from making decisions to stock picking. Oxford/Cambridge will have an economics reading list, the undercover economist is one they like to put in there, wider reading can do ALOT to improve your ability to pull arguments together and make good points. Application due dates are still months off mate. You have plenty of time and its worth noting that Oxford economics questions do tend to push you with "odd questions" where they want to see how you encounter material but they can also be very mathematical, akin to a maths interview in some cases. Looking at a recent FT article: Biden has announced a global 15% tax plan he wants to push in the G7 summit. Who might be for and against this change? Why? Why might Rishi Sunak already be trying to lobby for the City of London's financial institutes to be an exception and not have to pay? Understanding game theory and externalities can help you approach these questions.

You don't need FM to do E&M, and I even know a couple of Oxford physicists who haven't done it. I did the whole first year economics course with only A Level maths (I'm a PPEist) and didn't find it a challenge, any extra maths that you need is taught as part of the course.
If you get high enough predicted grades (I think the typical offer is above it), I'd say at least try to go for the course, so long as it's what you want and not anyone else. Very rarely do Oxford students actually think they're good enough to get in, but here we are.