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How can people think homosexuality is a choice?
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Original post by DYKWIA
They're not rants and they're not homophobic, but I'll never convince you because you are so stuck in your views.
Coming from a man who refuses to believe anything that doesn't involve gay people spreading disease, I find that rather laughable. You are the epitome of stuck record, and an offensive one at that.
Original post by paulbridger
Why would the homosexuality gene die out with evolution? We are still evolving. We, the human race, is not perfect. What do you think morphological deformities are? They are caused by a mutation in a gene, and the same could happen for a sex-determination gene. Perhaps in the future homosexuality will be extinct, you never know.
Gay people can't have kids (or at least have far fewer kids than straight people), that's why it would die out over time. I know that there is theory that apparently a benefit to having 'gay genes' if they exist, but tbh I feel that homosexuality must be partly environmental, while not a conscious choice. With the right environmental factors we could direct young children to becoming straight.
Original post by ohirome
Coming from a man who refuses to believe anything that doesn't involve gay people spreading disease, I find that rather laughable. You are the epitome of stuck record, and an offensive one at that.
You cannot dispute the facts that HIV is primarily a disease amongst the gay community.
Original post by DYKWIA
Gay people can't have kids (or at least have far fewer kids than straight people), that's why it would die out over time. I know that there is theory that apparently a benefit to having 'gay genes' if they exist, but tbh I feel that homosexuality must be partly environmental, while not a conscious choice. With the right environmental factors we could direct young children to becoming straight.
You've missed what I'm trying to say completely.. Yes, I agree, homosexuality will die out with time. But what if that time isn't over? Evolution is an ongoing process, and due to the ever-changing nature of the earth, organisms including humans are continually having to adapt to that change.
Original post by DYKWIA
You cannot dispute the facts that HIV is primarily a disease amongst the gay community.
You cannot dispute the facts that HIV is primarily a disease amongst the gay community.
The majority of cases in the UK are transmitted via heterosexual sex.
I think that lots of people get confused with being gay and having gay sex. You'd be an idiot to argue that the former is a choice and equally idiotic to say the latter isn't. I've spent a lot of time trying to seperate these two things and too many bigots say they're the same and use this as a way to attack them.
However, I would never choose to abstain, as a gay coming from a Catholic family, I know the types of statements they'll come up with when I come out. I must thank whoever took the bible apart on its messages on homosexuals as I think it will come in extremely handy in the future
However, I would never choose to abstain, as a gay coming from a Catholic family, I know the types of statements they'll come up with when I come out. I must thank whoever took the bible apart on its messages on homosexuals as I think it will come in extremely handy in the future
Original post by paulbridger
Why would the homosexuality gene die out with evolution? We are still evolving. We, the human race, is not perfect. What do you think morphological deformities are? They are caused by a mutation in a gene, and the same could happen for a sex-determination gene. Perhaps in the future homosexuality will be extinct, you never know.
I stated why I thought it would've died out. However, I'm no geneticist and I don't claim any of my posts in this thread to be fact. I just find it difficult to believe that there could be a gene for homosexuality.
Original post by Gales
The majority of cases in the UK are transmitted via heterosexual sex.
What about if you consider the relative proportions of gays and straight people though? I am sure gay people are more likely and more at risk of HIV. It's a very expensive disease to treat too.
well... one of the tropes is 'overbearing/enmeshed mother' & absent father, hormonal stuff, cultural stuff (thailand for instance), victim of abuse..
i also believe that the only thing stopping a man from being a homosexual in practice is exercised morality because let's face it, whatever actually goes on in a straight man's mind (meaning what they fantasise about or have at least pondered) one will never know for sure
and then there are prisoner dudes.. would you call them homosexuals? how 'bout black men on the 'down low'?
how about japanese 'herbivore men'?!
and native american anthropological tribes or whatever which allow men to choose whether theyd like to be a hunter or a gatherer?
+ metro men today..
+ men who enjoy being cuckolded.. does it carry on across to that fetish? ( i am aware of the standard 'shame' diagnosis)
and the fact that gender =/= sex..
i dont really know tbh.. and i actually helped shoulder a friend who had issues about sexuality and helped him come out while i was struggling with this whole concept (mainly due to upbringing.. my mother is quite um .. vociferous about her stance of gays.. eg the anal sex thing being impure and not natural... and yet for years in the past before contraception men and women used to do it that way i think)
the thing is for me, everything not limited to homosexuality is a choice.. how we behave.. what we do.. it comes from choice..the choice to exercise whatever it is we believe and want to be. Whether or not we are aware and / want to be aware of the deliberateness of our choices is another matter.. To do so would require one to live intensely introspectively/'meta'
and to follow on from the above poster i'd like to add that that friend who i supported has had sex without a condom before.. very irresponsible but hey..
for me i acknowledge that i have little % of bisexuality or lesbianism or whatever but like.. i dunno.. i went to a girls school for 5 years and never felt compelled to do anything with anyone.. i acknowledge the that the whole gender-sex thing is complicated.. so i engage with the topic on an theoretical level..
Oh that same friend whose pain and confusion and all that I shouldered, had intense views on religion as a whole and was very culturally intolerant bordering on offensive.. (not making a statement against gays, i'm just saying that he obviously had unresolved issues cause it is possible to be gay and at peace with oneself and possessing great character but of course once again this phenomenon is rampant amongst 'straights'/ 'non gays'..). For me as long as nobody is irresponsible (meaning own up and step up in life and dont hurt others and dont use 'marginalisation'/'victimisation' as a ploy), i dont care what they call themselves and how they look (tho yes it may take me time to adjust to something i've never ever seen or encountered but i have seen a lot in my life)
i also believe that the only thing stopping a man from being a homosexual in practice is exercised morality because let's face it, whatever actually goes on in a straight man's mind (meaning what they fantasise about or have at least pondered) one will never know for sure
and then there are prisoner dudes.. would you call them homosexuals? how 'bout black men on the 'down low'?
how about japanese 'herbivore men'?!
and native american anthropological tribes or whatever which allow men to choose whether theyd like to be a hunter or a gatherer?
+ metro men today..
+ men who enjoy being cuckolded.. does it carry on across to that fetish? ( i am aware of the standard 'shame' diagnosis)
and the fact that gender =/= sex..
i dont really know tbh.. and i actually helped shoulder a friend who had issues about sexuality and helped him come out while i was struggling with this whole concept (mainly due to upbringing.. my mother is quite um .. vociferous about her stance of gays.. eg the anal sex thing being impure and not natural... and yet for years in the past before contraception men and women used to do it that way i think)
the thing is for me, everything not limited to homosexuality is a choice.. how we behave.. what we do.. it comes from choice..the choice to exercise whatever it is we believe and want to be. Whether or not we are aware and / want to be aware of the deliberateness of our choices is another matter.. To do so would require one to live intensely introspectively/'meta'
and to follow on from the above poster i'd like to add that that friend who i supported has had sex without a condom before.. very irresponsible but hey..
for me i acknowledge that i have little % of bisexuality or lesbianism or whatever but like.. i dunno.. i went to a girls school for 5 years and never felt compelled to do anything with anyone.. i acknowledge the that the whole gender-sex thing is complicated.. so i engage with the topic on an theoretical level..
Oh that same friend whose pain and confusion and all that I shouldered, had intense views on religion as a whole and was very culturally intolerant bordering on offensive.. (not making a statement against gays, i'm just saying that he obviously had unresolved issues cause it is possible to be gay and at peace with oneself and possessing great character but of course once again this phenomenon is rampant amongst 'straights'/ 'non gays'..). For me as long as nobody is irresponsible (meaning own up and step up in life and dont hurt others and dont use 'marginalisation'/'victimisation' as a ploy), i dont care what they call themselves and how they look (tho yes it may take me time to adjust to something i've never ever seen or encountered but i have seen a lot in my life)
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by ROYP
I stated why I thought it would've died out. However, I'm no geneticist and I don't claim any of my posts in this thread to be fact. I just find it difficult to believe that there could be a gene for homosexuality.
I agree, I also think a gene for homosexuality is unlikely. A genetic mutation however, that causes homosexuality is much more likely.
Original post by DYKWIA
What about if you consider the relative proportions of gays and straight people though? I am sure gay people are more likely and more at risk of HIV. It's a very expensive disease to treat too.
1) I've explained to you numerous times why it's proportionally higher among gay people: It's carelessness on the people having sex's part. No other reason. During the 80s, when the AIDS epidemic started straight couples were more likely to use contraception to stop pregnancies. Can two men or two women having sex get pregnant? No, that's why the proportions were higher. The numbers are stabilising now. Now that you understand, is there any reason to object to gay rights because of HIV rates?
2) The cost is irrelevant.
Original post by Gales
1) I've explained to you numerous times why it's proportionally higher among gay people: It's carelessness on the people having sex's part. No other reason. During the 80s, when the AIDS epidemic started straight couples were more likely to use contraception to stop pregnancies. Can two men or two women having sex get pregnant? No, that's why the proportions were higher. The numbers are stabilising now. Now that you understand, is there any reason to object to gay rights because of HIV rates?
New infection rates are still higher, especially in the USA. It's not that different in britain. The reason numbers are higher is because of a dangerous lifestyle that gay people lead. It's not your fault, and I think that any sort of anal sex is not good and our bodies just aren't designed for it.
I'm not against gay rights, I am against the gay privileges people are suddenly demanding, which aren't justified.
2) The cost is irrelevant.
It is relevant. HIV is expensive and diverts treatments away from those who need it, not because they have led a dangerous lifestyle, but because of misfortunes at birth or cancer etc - things beyond their control. In a socialized healthcare system cost should matter even more.
Original post by Gales
The majority of cases in the UK are transmitted via heterosexual sex.
That's a fairly misleading statistiv though; it is true that of the 91,500 people estimated to have HIV in the UK only 40,100 of them were homosexual. That represents around 44% of all HIV cases being homosexual - as you correctly pointed out a minority.
However, when you consider that even by generous estimates less than 8% of the population self identify as LGBT that represents a disproportionate share of infections amongst the LGBT community.
EDIT - in response to the claim that the numbers are stabilising -
"The majority of new cases are amongst men who have sex with men" (PHA stats, quoted in BBC report - 1/12/11)
Link:
http://www.nat.org.uk/HIV-Facts/Statistics/Latest-UK-Statistics.aspx
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15978016
(The Question we really need to bear in mind is; "Why does who has more HIV matter when we're really concerned about whether sexuality is a choice?")
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by ThePhilosoraptor
That's a fairly misleading statistiv though; it is true that of the 91,500 people estimated to have HIV in the UK only 40,100 of them were homosexual. That represents around 44% of all HIV cases being homosexual - as you correctly pointed out a minority.
However, when you consider that even by generous estimates less than 8% of the population self identify as LGBT that represents a disproportionate share of infections amongst the LGBT community.
Link:
http://www.nat.org.uk/HIV-Facts/Statistics/Latest-UK-Statistics.aspx
(The Question we really need to bear in mind is; "Why does who has more HIV matter when we're really concerned about whether sexuality is a choice?"
However, when you consider that even by generous estimates less than 8% of the population self identify as LGBT that represents a disproportionate share of infections amongst the LGBT community.
Link:
http://www.nat.org.uk/HIV-Facts/Statistics/Latest-UK-Statistics.aspx
(The Question we really need to bear in mind is; "Why does who has more HIV matter when we're really concerned about whether sexuality is a choice?"
I stated it wasn't proportionate in my last post
Original post by DYKWIA
New infection rates are still higher, especially in the USA. It's not that different in britain. The reason numbers are higher is because of a dangerous lifestyle that gay people lead. It's not your fault, and I think that any sort of anal sex is not good and our bodies just aren't designed for it.
I'm not against gay rights, I am against the gay privileges people are suddenly demanding, which aren't justified.
It is relevant. HIV is expensive and diverts treatments away from those who need it, not because they have led a dangerous lifestyle, but because of misfortunes at birth or cancer etc - things beyond their control. In a socialized healthcare system cost should matter even more.
I'm not against gay rights, I am against the gay privileges people are suddenly demanding, which aren't justified.
It is relevant. HIV is expensive and diverts treatments away from those who need it, not because they have led a dangerous lifestyle, but because of misfortunes at birth or cancer etc - things beyond their control. In a socialized healthcare system cost should matter even more.
But you've also stated you're against civil partnerships or unions? WHY?! It has nothing to do with you and it doesn't demand 'privileges' like gay marriage would (in your opinion). Why do you think you have the right to make the lives of others miserable?
Original post by Gales
I stated it wasn't proportionate in my last post
So clearly gay people lead a different lifestyle in one way or another that is more dangerous.
Original post by DYKWIA
So clearly gay people lead a different lifestyle in one way or another that is more dangerous.
Oh **** off will you. My way of life is no more dangerous than yours. Anyway, all of this is irrelevant as to whether homosexuality is a choice. So stop going off topic and stop being moronic.
Oh that DYKWIA idiot.. He's just like the guy I'm talking about actually.
Original post by Gales
Oh **** off will you. My way of life is no more dangerous than yours. Anyway, all of this is irrelevant as to whether homosexuality is a choice. So stop going off topic and stop being moronic.
and yet you chose to respond to this person instead of my post
Original post by Gales
But you've also stated you're against civil partnerships or unions? WHY?! It has nothing to do with you and it doesn't demand 'privileges' like gay marriage would (in your opinion). Why do you think you have the right to make the lives of others miserable?
I don't like them, but if we were forced to take either civil unions or gay marriage, I'd take civil unions.
Why do you feel marriage is a right? I don't think you need it to be happy in life. Besides, I thought you didn't wanna get married yourself.
Original post by Gales
Oh **** off will you. My way of life is no more dangerous than yours. Anyway, all of this is irrelevant as to whether homosexuality is a choice. So stop going off topic and stop being moronic.
Sorry, I have gone off topic. When people state that homosexuality is a choice they don't mean a choice in the normal sense (oh, i think i've decided today I'm gonna be gay! woo, rainbows and gay sex!). They mean that homosexuality can be influenced in the way we are raised, which is true, and is the reason that homosexuality should not be encouraged.
Original post by Miracle Day
Oh that DYKWIA idiot.. He's just like the guy I'm talking about actually.
I'm not like that, I don't wish gay people would commit suicide - we should support them through their lives. I'm also not religious for the record.
Original post by a_stitch_in_time
and yet you chose to respond to this person instead of my post
That's because he'd have to deal with inconvenient facts.
(edited 12 years ago)
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