Why is it fair for people with money to get a better education than me?
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Original post by Drewski
It's human nature.
Some kids are predisposed to illnesses because of their birth. Whether it's morally wrong or not frankly doesn't matter. The idea that the younger generation has to do better than the one that went before it is inherently bad because somewhere along the line someone has to miss out in order for someone else to get that gain.
Some kids are predisposed to illnesses because of their birth. Whether it's morally wrong or not frankly doesn't matter. The idea that the younger generation has to do better than the one that went before it is inherently bad because somewhere along the line someone has to miss out in order for someone else to get that gain.
Yes but who succeeds and who misses out should not be pre-determined by people with wealth and people without.
Original post by Miracle Day
Yes but who succeeds and who misses out should not be pre-determined by people with wealth and people without.
How else would it be determined? By lottery? Set up by those with wealth and money and power, no doubt...
So, ok, maybe the current system is unfair, but it's better than any other system. There will always be dumb kids. There will always be bright kids. There will always be bad schools. There will always be good schools. Nothing anyone can do can alter that.
Even if you abolished private schools and gave every school in the country the exact same budget [balanced out for number of kids at each place] then there would still be a top and a bottom of the league table and there would still be a dramatic gulf between the two.
Original post by Miracle Day
I've put up some statistics from the BBC which obviously shows that people do better in Private schools, doesn't matter if you tell me I should have done tried harder or I should have done better the bottom line is people have an advantage if they go to them.
Obviously, that's nothing to do with how intelligent they are.
Original post by Drewski
How else would it be determined? By lottery? Set up by those with wealth and money and power, no doubt...
So, ok, maybe the current system is unfair, but it's better than any other system. There will always be dumb kids. There will always be bright kids. There will always be bad schools. There will always be good schools. Nothing anyone can do can alter that.
Even if you abolished private schools and gave every school in the country the exact same budget [balanced out for number of kids at each place] then there would still be a top and a bottom of the league table and there would still be a dramatic gulf between the two.
So, ok, maybe the current system is unfair, but it's better than any other system. There will always be dumb kids. There will always be bright kids. There will always be bad schools. There will always be good schools. Nothing anyone can do can alter that.
Even if you abolished private schools and gave every school in the country the exact same budget [balanced out for number of kids at each place] then there would still be a top and a bottom of the league table and there would still be a dramatic gulf between the two.
Do you go to a private school by any chance?
No it won't be determined. If the people of private schools are naturally intelligent they'll shine through in state schools. The kids who are intelligent will be at the top, and those who aren't intelligent will be at the bottom.
This will be alot more fair.
Original post by Miracle Day
Do you go to a private school by any chance?
No it won't be determined. If the people of private schools are naturally intelligent they'll shine through in state schools. The kids who are intelligent will be at the top, and those who aren't intelligent will be at the bottom.
This will be alot more fair.
No it won't be determined. If the people of private schools are naturally intelligent they'll shine through in state schools. The kids who are intelligent will be at the top, and those who aren't intelligent will be at the bottom.
This will be alot more fair.
I went to a very very ordinary [putting the 'bog' into bog standard] state school in York. Closest I came to a public school was an afternoon visit to Ampleforth College.
Would they though? Half the reason private schools are better is that they can attract the better quality of teachers with better wages. And you are aware that teachers are of varying quality, right? They don't come off a factory production line as a preset unit. Some are good, some are not as good. That's something that'll never be changed either, unless you only want 3 teachers a year to graduate from their PGCE courses.
Original post by Drewski
I went to a very very ordinary [putting the 'bog' into bog standard] state school in York. Closest I came to a public school was an afternoon visit to Ampleforth College.
Would they though? Half the reason private schools are better is that they can attract the better quality of teachers with better wages. And you are aware that teachers are of varying quality, right? They don't come off a factory production line as a preset unit. Some are good, some are not as good. That's something that'll never be changed either, unless you only want 3 teachers a year to graduate from their PGCE courses.
Would they though? Half the reason private schools are better is that they can attract the better quality of teachers with better wages. And you are aware that teachers are of varying quality, right? They don't come off a factory production line as a preset unit. Some are good, some are not as good. That's something that'll never be changed either, unless you only want 3 teachers a year to graduate from their PGCE courses.
I still don't see your point? It would be alot fairer if everyone went to the same type of school, all your doing is showing the inequality by giving private school's advantages?
Don't make excuses. If you work hard you can achieve. If you ever say; "He got better grades than me because he went to a private school" that's just embarassing, you obviously didn't want it enough.
I go to a state school.
7A*'s 4 A's at GCSE.
4 A's at AS.
If you want it enough, you'll get the grades.
I go to a state school.
7A*'s 4 A's at GCSE.
4 A's at AS.
If you want it enough, you'll get the grades.
The majority of my old private school classmates have applied for mid table unis. I have applied to mid table unis too and I go to a state school.
Depends on what private school they went to.
Depends on what private school they went to.
Original post by Miracle Day
I still don't see your point? It would be alot fairer if everyone went to the same type of school, all your doing is showing the inequality by giving private school's advantages?
My point is that while you maybe have a point that it would be 'fairer' it would also be worse and entirely unworkable.
Worse because you are denying people the privilege of spending their money however they want to [and, btw, what kind of wealthy parent wouldn't want to give their own children every advantage and help they could?] and you would be making some schools worse, not better.
Original post by Aramiss18
Not an equal comparison. Education should be the great equaliser, not whether you have D&G underwear or not.
it is an equal comparison such is the capitalist world we live in and sad it isn't, if you pay the money ( the money that you've most likely earnt ) than why shouldn't you get better education for your money?
Life's not fair get used to it
Is it fair that people get a job over someone more qualified just because their parents know someone who works there?
Is it fair that minorities sometimes get jobs over the majority who are better qualified just so company's can fill in their equal oppertunities quota?
Is it fair some people are born into poverty while some are born into more wealth than they need
Is it fair that people get a job over someone more qualified just because their parents know someone who works there?
Is it fair that minorities sometimes get jobs over the majority who are better qualified just so company's can fill in their equal oppertunities quota?
Is it fair some people are born into poverty while some are born into more wealth than they need
Original post by Miracle Day
Do you go to a private school by any chance?
No it won't be determined. If the people of private schools are naturally intelligent they'll shine through in state schools. The kids who are intelligent will be at the top, and those who aren't intelligent will be at the bottom.
This will be alot more fair.
No it won't be determined. If the people of private schools are naturally intelligent they'll shine through in state schools. The kids who are intelligent will be at the top, and those who aren't intelligent will be at the bottom.
This will be alot more fair.
Firstly; how is it more fair for someone to have an advantage due to their inherited intelligence rather than due to their inherited wealth?
Secondly; even if we accepted that it was more fair the education system would be far less efficient if we replaced all private schools with state schools. The reason being that private schools are evidently better at getting people to achieve their potential compared to state schools. If we want to improve the system we ought to look at why private schools are so much more effective.
Original post by Miracle Day
So you think there's a different atmosphere in private schools? Interesting.
I haven't been to a private school but I would assume there's an atmosphere of 'getting your money's worth'. The only quantifiable way of doing that is through grades. You can essentially look at private schools like a business - if they get a bad turnover (grades) then no one's going to buy their services. There must be a very different ethos than at a state school.
Not to mention that state schools often have more pastoral care with children from disadvantaged backgrounds who may have behavioural issues, which detracts attention from exams exams exams.
Original post by Drewski
Worse because you are denying people the privilege of spending their money however they want to
Worse because you are denying people the privilege of spending their money however they want to
They can spend it on whatever they want, however a private school would not be an option as it's non-existant therefore their reasoning would be as good as "I want to spend my money on a time-machine, or the Crown Jewels, or that castle but I can't."
Original post by Drewski
and you would be making some schools worse, not better.
and you would be making some schools worse, not better.
Actually schools would be exactly the same. The state schools would remain the same, infact those who welcomed pupils from private schools would benefit. The private schools would just simply be converted and reformed to state schools. Nothing would be worse.
Original post by Miracle Day
I've put up some statistics from the BBC which obviously shows that people do better in Private schools, doesn't matter if you tell me I should have done tried harder or I should have done better the bottom line is people have an advantage if they go to them.
That's the point of private schools - advantage.
Original post by Miracle Day
They can spend it on whatever they want, however a private school would not be an option as it's non-existant therefore their reasoning would be as good as "I want to spend my money on a time-machine, or the Crown Jewels, or that castle but I can't."
Actually schools would be exactly the same. The state schools would remain the same, infact those who welcomed pupils from private schools would benefit. The private schools would just simply be converted and reformed to state schools. Nothing would be worse.
Actually schools would be exactly the same. The state schools would remain the same, infact those who welcomed pupils from private schools would benefit. The private schools would just simply be converted and reformed to state schools. Nothing would be worse.
So are you going to ban private tutoriing, too?
Original post by OJ S
Blame your parents for not doing good at school themselves, therefore they couldnt afford to put you into private school. I do. Makes me want to work harder for my kids 
Not everyone who can afford it sends their kids private. My parents would never have sent me and my sister private even though they could have, as they wanted us to meet a broader range of people, they felt the teaching is good in state education (they themselves both teach in state schools) and that if we were going to perform well academically we'd do that wherever.
(edited 11 years ago)
It's not fair, but sadly the world revolves around money.
Comparing comprehensives to private schools (in terms of grades) is pointless because the vast majority of private schools are selective (entrance test at 11, 13 or they look at gcse results for sixth form entrants).
Whereas obviously comprehensives aren't selective. Comparing grammar schools to private schools might be a better comparison but there are so few grammar schools that that isn't really a fair comparison either. But in the league tables the highest ranked schools are often grammar schools.
To get into somewhere like Westminster at 16 you have to have almost all A* grades at GCSE, so it's not surprising their pupils get lots of As at A level.
Anyway, if you look at the academic research it all shows that the biggest determinant on grades is your parents' social class, not the type of school you go to. Middle-class pupils in state schools who have parents who take them to museums, go to parents evenings, help with homework, ring up the teacher if the child falls behind in a subject, etc do much better than poorer pupils who attend the same school. Going to a school with better teachers and smaller class sizes may have a small difference on results, but it's a tiny difference compared to the difference between pupils of different classes in the same schools. So if you got Cs and a friend at private school got A*s then it's almost certain that you wouldn't have got A*s at the private school (if it's selective you may not have got in in the first place). You may (though by no means definitely would) have got a higher C or a B grade but not an A*. The same for your friend, at your school they may have got a slightly lower A* or maybe an A, but they wouldn't have got Bs and Cs.
Whereas obviously comprehensives aren't selective. Comparing grammar schools to private schools might be a better comparison but there are so few grammar schools that that isn't really a fair comparison either. But in the league tables the highest ranked schools are often grammar schools.
To get into somewhere like Westminster at 16 you have to have almost all A* grades at GCSE, so it's not surprising their pupils get lots of As at A level.
Anyway, if you look at the academic research it all shows that the biggest determinant on grades is your parents' social class, not the type of school you go to. Middle-class pupils in state schools who have parents who take them to museums, go to parents evenings, help with homework, ring up the teacher if the child falls behind in a subject, etc do much better than poorer pupils who attend the same school. Going to a school with better teachers and smaller class sizes may have a small difference on results, but it's a tiny difference compared to the difference between pupils of different classes in the same schools. So if you got Cs and a friend at private school got A*s then it's almost certain that you wouldn't have got A*s at the private school (if it's selective you may not have got in in the first place). You may (though by no means definitely would) have got a higher C or a B grade but not an A*. The same for your friend, at your school they may have got a slightly lower A* or maybe an A, but they wouldn't have got Bs and Cs.
(edited 11 years ago)
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