Women asking for rape?
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Original post by tazarooni89
I really wonder, what is so unique about rape amongst all other crimes, such that it is the only one where people get extremely offended by the suggestion that it is possible to take precautions to reduce the likelihood of it happening?
I'd be interested to hear responses from people on both sides of the argument here. Why do you react so strongly when it's rape, but not when it's any othe crime? Or if you're not one of the people who do this: Why do you think the ones who do this react so strongly when it's rape rather than any other crime?
Personally, I just can't figure this one out.
I'd be interested to hear responses from people on both sides of the argument here. Why do you react so strongly when it's rape, but not when it's any othe crime? Or if you're not one of the people who do this: Why do you think the ones who do this react so strongly when it's rape rather than any other crime?
Personally, I just can't figure this one out.
I think it's because advice on not getting raped falls into two categories. On the one hand, not walking home alone at night when you're absolutely plastered is good advice for avoiding being a victim of crime in general, including rape but also things like muggings. It's really unfortunate that as a woman I feel unsafe in situations like that, and it's definitely something we should work to change, but in the meantime not making yourself vulnerable in that way is a good idea.
The problem comes with public figures telling women how to dress to avoid rape because
1. it ignores the fact that rape is largely about domination and power rather than sexual attraction
2. It encourages society to begin placing blame on victims for "encouraging" sexual attention.
Original post by Rasberrie
What you feel safe in is your choice, the claim that everyone else is safer in those clothes is unfounded, not "unfounded or not".
So you think you're more vulnerable wearing jeans and trainers than skyscraper heels and tight clothes that restrict your mobility?
And rapists definitely do go for vulnerability. That is why everyone from grandmothers to children are targeted (and who's going to be more vulnerable than these two groups?).
Original post by Wilfred Little
I like you desdemonata. You talk sense 
my thanks 
Seriously some feminists on here need to chill. Funnily enough, women have traditionally relied on men to make the first move, to initiate everything, for fear that them initiating it will mean they'll be viewed as a slut.
So guys make a move, wires get crossed in a drunken haze and misunderstandings occur. If women were up front, and not so trapped in the slut-virgin dichotomy which seems to dictate their thinking in most sexual encounters and even initiated there would be fewer misunderstandings. But i'm sure girls will appreciate this too; if she says yes, she means yes. if she says no, she means no. Female empowerment and equality at its greatest.
When have you ever encountered a guy who was unsure whether he wanted to have sex or not? Never. So guys always think that when a girl hesitates its because she's fighting her feelings over the slut-virgin dichotomy, not whether she wants to have sex, because shes already done something normally to put herself in that position, but because men don't tend to consider whether people will think they're a slut or not if they have sex.
"
So guys make a move, wires get crossed in a drunken haze and misunderstandings occur. If women were up front, and not so trapped in the slut-virgin dichotomy which seems to dictate their thinking in most sexual encounters and even initiated there would be fewer misunderstandings. But i'm sure girls will appreciate this too; if she says yes, she means yes. if she says no, she means no. Female empowerment and equality at its greatest.
When have you ever encountered a guy who was unsure whether he wanted to have sex or not? Never. So guys always think that when a girl hesitates its because she's fighting her feelings over the slut-virgin dichotomy, not whether she wants to have sex, because shes already done something normally to put herself in that position, but because men don't tend to consider whether people will think they're a slut or not if they have sex.
"
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by jreid1994
It's unfortunate but the guys that rape would probably target girls in heels though not too sure about the other apparel as it don't make rape any more difficult, I'd say they target girls that are in secluded and dark areas that are on their own whilst drunk, it's not completely the clothing, it's the vulnerability of the person that the target, rapists are predators so they choose people who are weak or vulnerable.
Getting raped is similar to getting mugged if you think about it. They target the people that are easy to attack.
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Getting raped is similar to getting mugged if you think about it. They target the people that are easy to attack.
Posted from TSR Mobile
No, it's not completely the clothing, and compared to other factors (being alone, being drunk, etc.) it is a small one, but I think it would contribute to the whole scenario of being drunk, alone and in an outfit hard to move/run away in.
It's similar in that they target someone vulnerable that they think will have little or no chance of fighting back, yes.
Original post by riotgrrl
I think it's because advice on not getting raped falls into two categories. On the one hand, not walking home alone at night when you're absolutely plastered is good advice for avoiding being a victim of crime in general, including rape but also things like muggings. It's really unfortunate that as a woman I feel unsafe in situations like that, and it's definitely something we should work to change, but in the meantime not making yourself vulnerable in that way is a good idea.
The problem comes with public figures telling women how to dress to avoid rape because
1. it ignores the fact that rape is largely about domination and power rather than sexual attraction
2. It encourages society to begin placing blame on victims for "encouraging" sexual attention.
The problem comes with public figures telling women how to dress to avoid rape because
1. it ignores the fact that rape is largely about domination and power rather than sexual attraction
2. It encourages society to begin placing blame on victims for "encouraging" sexual attention.
Because men would feel safe getting mugged too?
why why why?? So if you were desperate for money and you know someone with an expensive load of stuff was going to be walking home on their own and they were drunk would you care if the person you threaten to stab for their stuff is male or female??As for the rest...
1) True, I guess.
2) Yes because we also blame people who get mugged for having an iPhone, grow up.
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Original post by desdemonata
No, it's not completely the clothing, and compared to other factors (being alone, being drunk, etc.) it is a small one, but I think it would contribute to the whole scenario of being drunk, alone and in an outfit hard to move/run away in.
It's similar in that they target someone vulnerable that they think will have little or no chance of fighting back, yes.
It's similar in that they target someone vulnerable that they think will have little or no chance of fighting back, yes.
I don't really know what kind of person a rapist would target, I can't really help here but feminazis are really annoying, first and second wave is good but I mean third is more of a demonization of men, I mean it's similar to Nazi tactics if you think about it.
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Original post by jreid1994
I don't really know what kind of person a rapist would target, I can't really help here but feminazis are really annoying, first and second wave is good but I mean third is more of a demonization of men, I mean it's similar to Nazi tactics if you think about it.
Posted from TSR Mobile
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Anyone they think they can get away with raping, really, from kids to grandmothers, nuns to prostitues. No group of any kind is safe.
I don't want this to go off into a debate about feminism, but feminism isn't engaging in mass genocide and extermination tactics so I wouldn't really want to compare it to that.
Original post by tazarooni89
I really wonder, what is so unique about rape amongst all other crimes, such that it is the only one where people get extremely offended by the suggestion that it is possible to take precautions to reduce the likelihood of it happening?
I'd be interested to hear responses from people on both sides of the argument here. Why do you react so strongly when it's rape, but not when it's any othe crime? Or if you're not one of the people who do this: Why do you think the ones who do this react so strongly when it's rape rather than any other crime?
Personally, I just can't figure this one out.
I'd be interested to hear responses from people on both sides of the argument here. Why do you react so strongly when it's rape, but not when it's any othe crime? Or if you're not one of the people who do this: Why do you think the ones who do this react so strongly when it's rape rather than any other crime?
Personally, I just can't figure this one out.
Because women have been systematically controlled by men saying they shouldn't do X or Y for centuries under the guise of "keeping them safe" or doing what's "best for them". Telling women not to do X and Y only reduces their freedom and creates a submissive and fearful culture with very little overall benefit. That's ****ing why, you sexist pricks.
Original post by desdemonata
No, it's not completely the clothing, and compared to other factors (being alone, being drunk, etc.) it is a small one, but I think it would contribute to the whole scenario of being drunk, alone and in an outfit hard to move/run away in.
It's similar in that they target someone vulnerable that they think will have little or no chance of fighting back, yes.
It's similar in that they target someone vulnerable that they think will have little or no chance of fighting back, yes.
Im not sure clothing really contributes to vulnerability in that sense.
Firstly, women are on average not as physical as men. Most men can out run most women, thats almost a given. So its hardly like wearing running gear makes you uncatchable.
Also, the way the attack happens isn't 'look at that girl in the distance, im gunna run after her and catch her and rape her'. If a guy walks up to you in the street, bundles you into an alley or car, what you are wearing makes no difference.
Equally, given rape is normally accompanied by violence, even a fairly unathletic man punching a woman in the face several times to initiate the attack is the stopper. Doesnt matter if you have you best running gear on, your not going anywhere. same if the first thing you know about it is a knife in your back.
it isnt rocky, even in conventional 'fights' it is a fairly low level of violence needed to subdue somebody. Most dont last a minute, and usually the first landed punch is the decider. Against somebody who is completely unprepared to violence, it takes almost nothing.
Sexual predators will engineer a situation in which you cannot even try to escape, the mechanics of how quickly you can escape are close to irrelevant.
The reality of it is, in almost all sexual attacks against anybody, once it starts you are not likely to get away.
Original post by desdemonata
So you think you're more vulnerable wearing jeans and trainers than skyscraper heels and tight clothes that restrict your mobility?
And rapists definitely do go for vulnerability. That is why everyone from grandmothers to children are targeted (and who's going to be more vulnerable than these two groups?).
And rapists definitely do go for vulnerability. That is why everyone from grandmothers to children are targeted (and who's going to be more vulnerable than these two groups?).
You can wear revealing clothes that don't restrict your mobility so your point is moot.
You can also wear a business suit with heels.
No one is saying that being in unrestricted clothes and running shoes doesn't make it easier for you to get away. However that wasn't your point, your point was rapists are attracted to revealing clothes as oppose to everyday wear which is unfounded.
Which brings me back to my first point:
It is not unreasonable to say a pair of black skinny jeans will attracted a rapist whose a minority by caring about clothing, it is still unfounded though. Hence why people get mad.
Original post by theguv92
Seriously some feminists on here need to chill. Funnily enough, women have traditionally relied on men to make the first move, to initiate everything, for fear that them initiating it will mean they'll be viewed as a slut.
So guys make a move, wires get crossed in a drunken haze and misunderstandings occur. If women were up front, and not so trapped in the slut-virgin dichotomy which seems to dictate their thinking in most sexual encounters and even initiated there would be fewer misunderstandings. But i'm sure girls will appreciate this too; if she says yes, she means yes. if she says no, she means no. Female empowerment and equality at its greatest.
When have you ever encountered a guy who was unsure whether he wanted to have sex or not? Never. So guys always think that when a girl hesitates its because she's fighting her feelings over the slut-virgin dichotomy, not whether she wants to have sex, because shes already done something normally to put herself in that position, but because men don't tend to consider whether people will think they're a slut or not if they have sex.
"
So guys make a move, wires get crossed in a drunken haze and misunderstandings occur. If women were up front, and not so trapped in the slut-virgin dichotomy which seems to dictate their thinking in most sexual encounters and even initiated there would be fewer misunderstandings. But i'm sure girls will appreciate this too; if she says yes, she means yes. if she says no, she means no. Female empowerment and equality at its greatest.
When have you ever encountered a guy who was unsure whether he wanted to have sex or not? Never. So guys always think that when a girl hesitates its because she's fighting her feelings over the slut-virgin dichotomy, not whether she wants to have sex, because shes already done something normally to put herself in that position, but because men don't tend to consider whether people will think they're a slut or not if they have sex.
"
You are ****ing disgusting. You essentially claim that rape is because of "misunderstandings" based on women's faulty thinking, and justifying men who rape. No, I will not "chill" whilst people are being brutally attacked and then being attacked again verbally by sexist pricks like you who clearly think it's the woman's fault and stop just short of saying so.
Original post by desdemonata
Anyone they think they can get away with raping, really, from kids to grandmothers, nuns to prostitues. No group of any kind is safe.
I don't want this to go off into a debate about feminism, but feminism isn't engaging in mass genocide and extermination tactics so I wouldn't really want to compare it to that.
I don't want this to go off into a debate about feminism, but feminism isn't engaging in mass genocide and extermination tactics so I wouldn't really want to compare it to that.
I don't like the fact that violent crime is still present but they seem to think that guys giving advice in how to avoid rape is trying to opress them, for any other crime but this one advice is actually listened to even if the guys are giving less than perfect advice, they are blind to see that all that the males giving the advice are trying to do, is look out for them
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Original post by c471
Im not sure clothing really contributes to vulnerability in that sense.
Firstly, women are on average not as physical as men. Most men can out run most women, thats almost a given. So its hardly like wearing running gear makes you uncatchable.
Also, the way the attack happens isn't 'look at that girl in the distance, im gunna run after her and catch her and rape her'. If a guy walks up to you in the street, bundles you into an alley or car, what you are wearing makes no difference.
Equally, given rape is normally accompanied by violence, even a fairly unathletic man punching a woman in the face several times to initiate the attack is the stopper. Doesnt matter if you have you best running gear on, your not going anywhere. same if the first thing you know about it is a knife in your back.
it isnt rocky, even in conventional 'fights' it is a fairly low level of violence needed to subdue somebody. Most dont last a minute, and usually the first landed punch is the decider. Against somebody who is completely unprepared to violence, it takes almost nothing.
Sexual predators will engineer a situation in which you cannot even try to escape, the mechanics of how quickly you can escape are close to irrelevant.
The reality of it is, in almost all sexual attacks against anybody, once it starts you are not likely to get away.
Firstly, women are on average not as physical as men. Most men can out run most women, thats almost a given. So its hardly like wearing running gear makes you uncatchable.
Also, the way the attack happens isn't 'look at that girl in the distance, im gunna run after her and catch her and rape her'. If a guy walks up to you in the street, bundles you into an alley or car, what you are wearing makes no difference.
Equally, given rape is normally accompanied by violence, even a fairly unathletic man punching a woman in the face several times to initiate the attack is the stopper. Doesnt matter if you have you best running gear on, your not going anywhere. same if the first thing you know about it is a knife in your back.
it isnt rocky, even in conventional 'fights' it is a fairly low level of violence needed to subdue somebody. Most dont last a minute, and usually the first landed punch is the decider. Against somebody who is completely unprepared to violence, it takes almost nothing.
Sexual predators will engineer a situation in which you cannot even try to escape, the mechanics of how quickly you can escape are close to irrelevant.
The reality of it is, in almost all sexual attacks against anybody, once it starts you are not likely to get away.
I didn't say trainers and trousers would make you uncatchable. Just that you would be able to run; and you don't have to run far or all the way home, just to say a place where there are other people or far away enough to scream and be heard.
I know that. I'm saying that a rapist would be more likely to walk up to the drunk girl in heels than the sober one in trainers, and that dress contributes to the whole image. Dressed up, even if you are standing still and not showing any signs of being drunk, is still going to give the impression that you have been drinking.
Rape is accompanied by violence and threat, yes, but I'm talking here about the targeting process. It's opportunity they look for, and they will see a drunk woman coming back from a night out as more of an opportunity than someone dressed like they were out for a jog (though of course that's not to say someone like this will never get targeted, because they are too).
Original post by Chaoshi
Because women have been systematically controlled by men saying they shouldn't do X or Y for centuries under the guise of "keeping them safe" or doing what's "best for them". Telling women not to do X and Y only reduces their freedom and creates a submissive and fearful culture with very little overall benefit. That's ****ing why, you sexist pricks.
Total bull****, its only in the recent past (last century) that women didn't need looking after. Believe me, in the past when women were treated as second class citizens and dehumanised, they very much did need looking after. Nobody watches Les Mis and says that Valjean was taking away a womans freedom by looking after the woman and not letting her continue her life as a prostitute?
Original post by Chaoshi
You are ****ing disgusting. You essentially claim that rape is because of "misunderstandings" based on women's faulty thinking, and justifying men who rape. No, I will not "chill" whilst people are being brutally attacked and then being attacked again verbally by sexist pricks like you who clearly think it's the woman's fault and stop just short of saying so.
Most rapes are because of misunderstandings. If they were all violent rapes then the conviction rate wouldn't be 5%
Original post by Rasberrie
You can wear revealing clothes that don't restrict your mobility so your point is moot.
You can also wear a business suit with heels.
No one is saying that being in unrestricted clothes and running shoes doesn't make it easier for you to get away. However that wasn't your point, your point was rapists are attracted to revealing clothes as oppose to everyday wear which is unfounded.
Which brings me back to my first point:
It is not unreasonable to say a pair of black skinny jeans will attracted a rapist whose a minority by caring about clothing, it is still unfounded though. Hence why people get mad.
You can also wear a business suit with heels.
No one is saying that being in unrestricted clothes and running shoes doesn't make it easier for you to get away. However that wasn't your point, your point was rapists are attracted to revealing clothes as oppose to everyday wear which is unfounded.
Which brings me back to my first point:
It is not unreasonable to say a pair of black skinny jeans will attracted a rapist whose a minority by caring about clothing, it is still unfounded though. Hence why people get mad.
Read my first post again. Why do people get so mad about this? You tell someone not to take their phone of their pocket in a place where it's more likely to get stolen, and people say that OK it makes sense. Even if the link between clothes and a certain type of woman is unfounded, is that to say it's impossible there's ever been a connection between the two? That a rapists has never ever picked a target depending on what they were wearing? Wouldn't you rather just listen to the advice just in case?
Wearing overly revealing clothes will not get a women raped its a combination of her being by herself at night and her being intoxicated. A rapist wouldn't commit rape if a girl was with friends and not smashed out of her head. Rape can happen to any woman regardless what she's wearing.
Original post by Chaoshi
Because women have been systematically controlled by men saying they shouldn't do X or Y for centuries under the guise of "keeping them safe" or doing what's "best for them". Telling women not to do X and Y only reduces their freedom and creates a submissive and fearful culture with very little overall benefit. That's ****ing why, you sexist pricks.
Hasn't everybody been systematically told about ways of keeping safe? Why would anybody not want to know how to keep safe? Parents and police etc. are doing a pretty rubbish job if they don't tell people how to keep safe. This still doesn't explain why rape is the only crime that receives this reaction. Why don't other crimes get the same response?
I don't particularly see how this reduces anyone's freedom. There's a difference between advice, and a law or command. It's not like it's being made illegal to dress revealingly.
You say it's under the "guise" of helping women keep safe - what other agenda do you think MP's and police officers might have, that would make them advise women to dress less revealingly? What difference does it make to them what women are wearing? If anything, the male ones would want women to dress more revealingly, if they were just looking out for their own interests.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by desdemonata
Read my first post again. Why do people get so mad about this?
Read my first post again. Why do people get so mad about this?
I don't need to read your first post again.
I've already told you why people get mad about it.
Even if the link between clothes and a certain type of woman is unfounded
There is no even if, it is unfounded, accept it.
is that to say it's impossible there's ever been a connection between the two? That a rapists has never ever picked a target depending on what they were wearing? Wouldn't you rather just listen to the advice just in case?
Is it impossible to say a mugger has never mugged someone because they are wearing bright clothes? No, but we know the majority of rape cases don't happen because of that.
If it was true that only sluts got raped in this alternative reality my response would be: It is like telling gay people to not "act" or "dress" gay to avoid homophobia, there are plenty of homophobic everywhere does that mean gay people should avoid being themselves in fear? It not like locking your car.
Also wouldn't YOU rather listen to the advice? http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/album.php?albumid=5795&attachmentid=168555
Having your boobs out in that dress isn't avoiding attention yet you chose to do it. Why is that? Or are you just disregarding consistency, self respect and morals to impress your anti feminist boyfriend?
Owned.
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