Minimum Wage

"here, let me punch you in the face until you do what I want you to do because you're too evil and stupid to do if without me threatening you" -

and again, if we had no welfare state, mutual aid societies would most likely voluntarily perform the tasks with the larger degree of necessity/interest.

and honestly, there are already homeless people in the streets today, what would you suppose should be done about it? make it illegal to become homeless? make it illegal to fail?

Kind of. You would only get punched in the face in you refused to pay tax and then tried to resist arrest etc or got violent with the law enforcement. Of course people like me were also voted in by fellow citizens so not everyone will dislike it.

Especially as a large proportion of society can benefit from it themselves.

But ye, some exceedingly rich person doesn't want to give a small amount of his wealth to help those that generate his profit or to those who are in need of help then tough ****, he will feel the force of the law.

I'm not trying to dance around what I believe in. Or trying to preach I have found the one true moral/economic/philosophical truth like you are with your extreme individualism.

You're entitled to your belief but it is annoying when you can't seem to even comprehend that is is only a philosophical view point, not some scientific absolute truth like gravity.

So why was poverty so wide spread in say the vicotrian era when the things such as the welfare state and government were so much smaller. Why has poverty dropped massively as these state institutions you despise increased?

Why in places like India where there is massive amount of wealth are there so many who are poor? Why are the mega rich not falling over themselves to give away their wealth?

Lets say you are right though and people would help each other of their own accord. Great. Humanity has grown and we should be grateful to the wise mr smiley leading us there.

But lets also consider another scenario. Say people do not behave in the way you predict and leading us to your libertarian utopia. What would you do if enough people were not giving away enough wealth to charity to stop poverty? What if the socioeconomic problems of the past re-emerge? What would you do? Out of interest.

I know. Most people walk past them without even looking at them.

I propose we continue being compassionate and humane and don't resort back to the society you want in which I believe there would be even more homeless on the streets.

also, I really don't have the time to keep going back and forth so make your next message your last

He deosn't even think that. The weak and unemployable should just be left alone to die.

Kind of. You would only get punched in the face in you refused to pay tax and then tried to resist arrest etc or got violent with the law enforcement. Of course people like me were also voted in by fellow citizens so not everyone will dislike it. Especially as a large proportion of society can benefit from it themselves. But ye, some exceedingly rich person doesn't want to give a small amount of his wealth to help those that generate his profit or to those who are in need of help then tough ****, he will feel the force of the law.

I'm not trying to dance around what I believe in. Or trying to preach I have found the one true moral/economic/philosophical truth like you are with your extreme individualism. You're entitled to your belief but it is annoying when you can't seem to even comprehend that is is only a philosophical view point, not some scientific absolute truth like gravity.

...are you presuming all property in the remote depths of history originated from theft?

but doesn't that mean if all property is stolen, they, the thief from the past, simply stole from another thief seeing as all property comes from theft? so doesn't that cancel out the badness?

what if property originated from a guy finding something (be it abandoned/unused land or some kind of similar possession) and simply said "this is mine" and nobody contested it? is that theft? who'd they steal the property from? mother nature? or...god? I don't see who could have possibly come to own the property before them if nobody around before them except maybe animals?

because either I own something and have the claim of possession over it, or I don't, and therefore I don't have that right, right?

Well, I was willing to discuss some abstract 'immaculate conception property' style scenario, but yes, historically that is what happened:

For more detail: http://www.mutualist.org/id4.html



I don't see how you work that out.



He wouldn't be stealing it, no, but why does he have any rights to it? Why does simply finding something and declaring it to be yours automatically give you the rights to forcefully exclude others from it?



Not at all. Ownership is often explained as a 'bundle of rights' that by no means necessarily go together,