It is only sexist when men do it
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Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
You misunderstand. I'm not saying on an individual level. You are right about that. I'm saying institutionally men have more power than women.
The fact men have such pride is patriarchy ... So you should be on my side
The fact men have such pride is patriarchy ... So you should be on my side
Yes it is but that will not be abolished via feminism which is seen as an extremist response to such. This will just further the divide.
Yeah because society sees us as weak fragile creatures who need protecting... Id rather bd seen as an equal
So if a man hit you in self defence would you be happy for that? (not condoning it by the way but just want your opinion on such)
I see your point but surely you can see how discriminating against a privileged group, while still unfair, isn't as bad?
Men are privileged in the eyes of other men who are sexist. Fortunately, not all men feel this way. You must work alongside men who aren't this way inclined to tackle gender inequality and not tar them with the same brush as many men who are misogynist etc. By saying men this and men that you are taking a blanket approach to a much more complex devolved issue. There is a subset of men who are this way inclined. You will only eradicate this way of being by working alongside men who view you as equals.
And feminism is just the belief that women have equal rights to men, it is not extreme
I disagree. I see feminism as an extremist reaction to the actions of men. Of course with most actions there will be a reaction so do I blame feminists for this approach? No because many feel this is the only way of responding to the injustices placed upon them in society and their day to day lives. Does this mean I think its the solution? No. I think gender equality and promoting that as gender equality is the answer and that will only happen when both men who view women as equal and women who view men as equal come together for the common good.
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
Let me explain power structures to you
If you shout "you're fired" to your boss, nothing happens to him, because you're not in a position of power over him
If he shouts "you're fired" at you, you lose your job. The same thing was said, yet it had much worse consequences when he said it because he's in a position of power
I don't agree with people being "sexist" to men but you cannot argue it is as damaging as sexism towards females
If you shout "you're fired" to your boss, nothing happens to him, because you're not in a position of power over him
If he shouts "you're fired" at you, you lose your job. The same thing was said, yet it had much worse consequences when he said it because he's in a position of power
I don't agree with people being "sexist" to men but you cannot argue it is as damaging as sexism towards females
It can easily be argued, however, that women who experience sexism have an abundance of help and support available to them, whereas men don't (ironically because of this notion that it isn't as much of a problem for a man).
Also, I'm a man, and I can think of no powers whatsoever that I have over any woman I know. In fact, come to think of it, most of the authority figures in my life have been women. I've had no recognisable advantages or favourable treatment over my female classmates in my schooling life, nor have I been granted any additional authority, opportunities or pay by my employers simply for being a male.
For me, at least, if I am cheated out of something or given a raw deal due to my sex (which has happened to me from time-to-time), it would be equally as annoying, inconvenient and damaging to my life and career regardless of whether I was a man or a woman.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
If you shout "you're fired" to your boss, nothing happens to him, because you're not in a position of power over him
If you shout "you're fired" to your boss, nothing happens to him, because you're not in a position of power over him
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
so that's where i've been going wrong.
This thread is stupid. The whole well yeah, sexism to men is less of a problem than sexism towards women. Sexism is sexism at the end of the day, am I right? Of course I am.
If a prostitute was raped instead of a Virgin, is raping the prostitute less of a problem? Because I mean, c'mon, it's not like they're not used to sex.
This whole thing is stupid. Discrimination is not a spectrum of severity. You can't be a little bit pregnant, just the same as you can't be a little bit sexist.
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If a prostitute was raped instead of a Virgin, is raping the prostitute less of a problem? Because I mean, c'mon, it's not like they're not used to sex.
This whole thing is stupid. Discrimination is not a spectrum of severity. You can't be a little bit pregnant, just the same as you can't be a little bit sexist.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
Men are institutionally more powerful than women, this isn't up for debate.
Also I'm not extreme. I would try and engage you but I doubt you'd be able to read what I'm writing from under your fedora
Also I'm not extreme. I would try and engage you but I doubt you'd be able to read what I'm writing from under your fedora
No, I think that MORE men are institutionally more powerful than women. Your original comment implies that women have a lot less power which is nonsensical as several countries (Australia, Brazil, the UK, Germany, Sri Lanka, South Korea and more) have had or have female PMs, presidents or queens, implying that women still have a quite a lot of power. I want neither a patriarchy nor a matriarchy but rather a democratic system of power in which women and men are represented EQUALLY. That, my friend, is one step better than feminism, because it's called egalitarianism.
Original post by Clip
I don't care if you are a cow-strangler at an abbatoir or a portable toilet cleaner. I'm quitting my job and working where you work.
Comments like this are why sexism towards men is not taken seriously. You are making a joke out of yourself and this poor man's experience of harassment.
Original post by Ichiko N.A.B.
Comments like this are why sexism towards men is not taken seriously. You are making a joke out of yourself and this poor man's experience of harassment.
I am not joking.
I can't think of any circumstances where I would not want to be treated as a sex object by a large number of women.
Original post by Clip
I am not joking.
I can't think of any circumstances where I would not want to be treated as a sex object by a large number of women.
I can't think of any circumstances where I would not want to be treated as a sex object by a large number of women.
Right... -_- well you just proved my previous point, more so when you said that you were not joking
Original post by Ichiko N.A.B.
Right... -_- well you just proved my previous point, more so when you said that you were not joking
Proved in what way?
Original post by Clip
Proved in what way?
Because you made a joke out of that user's experience of harassment in a forum that is trying to make light of and end sexism towards men.
Well let me start by saying I am a feminist.
I do not hate men, nor do I blame all men for sexism. I also don't believe that only men can be sexist.
While the 'scary' sexism that I have experienced (catcalls, groping, getting followed) has always been done by men, I'd say 50% of the sexism I receive professionally is by other women.
If I say that I don't want a family, I want a career, it is often women who will reply "Oh, you'll change your mind." or "But why don't you want kids?" or anything else along those lines. They never seem to say that to my male peers who have the same idea as me. That to me is sexism.
I do not hate men, nor do I blame all men for sexism. I also don't believe that only men can be sexist.
While the 'scary' sexism that I have experienced (catcalls, groping, getting followed) has always been done by men, I'd say 50% of the sexism I receive professionally is by other women.
If I say that I don't want a family, I want a career, it is often women who will reply "Oh, you'll change your mind." or "But why don't you want kids?" or anything else along those lines. They never seem to say that to my male peers who have the same idea as me. That to me is sexism.
because a) men hold institutional power which has been explained clearly in this thread already and also b) sexism against women kills women, whereas sexism against men, does what, annoy them at most. Also sexism against men doesn't exist (i.e., just because bad things happen to men that isn't due to 'sexism', whereas a lot of the time, when something bad happens to women, it is due to misogyny. Also, a lot of these bad things against men also happen bc you know, toxic masculinity)
Original post by ChelseaYvonne
Well let me start by saying I am a feminist.
I do not hate men, nor do I blame all men for sexism. I also don't believe that only men can be sexist.
While the 'scary' sexism that I have experienced (catcalls, groping, getting followed) has always been done by men, I'd say 50% of the sexism I receive professionally is by other women.
If I say that I don't want a family, I want a career, it is often women who will reply "Oh, you'll change your mind." or "But why don't you want kids?" or anything else along those lines. They never seem to say that to my male peers who have the same idea as me. That to me is sexism.
I do not hate men, nor do I blame all men for sexism. I also don't believe that only men can be sexist.
While the 'scary' sexism that I have experienced (catcalls, groping, getting followed) has always been done by men, I'd say 50% of the sexism I receive professionally is by other women.
If I say that I don't want a family, I want a career, it is often women who will reply "Oh, you'll change your mind." or "But why don't you want kids?" or anything else along those lines. They never seem to say that to my male peers who have the same idea as me. That to me is sexism.
Half of what you just said is nonsense.
I've been followed by a man as well walking home from work one night, was he being sexist? The first 3 examples of what you initially listed are illegal, groping happens to plenty of men as well at the hands of females but unlike women guys would rarely report it through fear of ridicule.
Being a mother is extremely common and a massive majority of women end up having children and raising a family, how is it sexist to be curious as to why you would not? Its like a couple deciding not to get married, its fine and nobody really cares but of course people will probably ask why and be a bit curious because its not the normal thing to do.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by timelizard
because a) men hold institutional power which has been explained clearly in this thread already and also b) sexism against women kills women, whereas sexism against men, does what, annoy them at most. Also sexism against men doesn't exist (i.e., just because bad things happen to men that isn't due to 'sexism', whereas a lot of the time, when something bad happens to women, it is due to misogyny. Also, a lot of these bad things against men also happen bc you know, toxic masculinity)
Well the sexist idea that all men should be able to fight got millions of men killed during World War 1 and 2, and many others locked up for 'cowardice' simply for being a male who wasn't able to fight.
Those two single wars killed more males due to a sexist ideology than and i can think off in female history, so care to carry on?
Half of what you said was just ignorant nonsense, such as "sexism against men doesn't exist". I also fail to see where you point a) is explained in the thread, i noticed the second post refers to males essentially being the boss of females, but the only person to make that assumption/comparison was a female feminist.
Original post by JG1233
Well the sexist idea that all men should be able to fight got millions of men killed during World War 1 and 2, and many others locked up for 'cowardice' simply for being a male who wasn't able to fight.
Those two single wars killed more males due to a sexist ideology than and i can think off in female history, so care to carry on?
Half of what you said was just ignorant nonsense, such as "sexism against men doesn't exist". I also fail to see where you point a) is explained in the thread, i noticed the second post refers to males essentially being the boss of females, but the only person to make that assumption/comparison was a female feminist.
Those two single wars killed more males due to a sexist ideology than and i can think off in female history, so care to carry on?
Half of what you said was just ignorant nonsense, such as "sexism against men doesn't exist". I also fail to see where you point a) is explained in the thread, i noticed the second post refers to males essentially being the boss of females, but the only person to make that assumption/comparison was a female feminist.
But the thing is, the idea that men should become soldiers was mostly imposed onto men by other men (fathers, brothers, friends, etc), not by women. You are also forgetting the fact that women were later conscripted (albeit into less dangerous jobs) and many still died.
Moreover, even though I wholly agree with you that sexism goes both ways, it's obvious that women are exposed to sexism more harshly and more frequently - an observation that becomes magnified by 100 fold when you go to LEDCs or developing countries.
Original post by Ichiko N.A.B.
But the thing is, the idea that men should become soldiers was mostly imposed onto men by other men (fathers, brothers, friends, etc), not by women. You are also forgetting the fact that women were later conscripted (albeit into less dangerous jobs) and many still died.
Moreover, even though I wholly agree with you that sexism goes both ways, it's obvious that women are exposed to sexism more harshly and more frequently - an observation that becomes magnified by 100 fold when you go to LEDCs or developing countries.
Moreover, even though I wholly agree with you that sexism goes both ways, it's obvious that women are exposed to sexism more harshly and more frequently - an observation that becomes magnified by 100 fold when you go to LEDCs or developing countries.
Sexism is sexism, the men who actually fought and died in the war had no say whether or not they were going to be forced to fight. Just because men were the main policy makers doesn't mean they were unable to be sexist to their own gender, and the person i quoted stated men had never died due to sexism. In traditional Indian households daughters often suffer sexism (arranged marriages, maintaining honour) etc. However often the mother is just as much as guilty as the father, so does that then mean it isn't sexist?
I would agree women still suffer sexism slightly more than men in everyday life, but not the the extent many feminists make out. I would also agree feminism does still have a massive place in many other countries (usually LEDCS as you mentioned), however it now really lacks almost any importance in the UK as the gap is so small there is no reason now to focus solely on one gender (especially considering the radicals now linked with feminism and the menial campaigns currently being waged by feminists).
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Ichiko N.A.B.
But the thing is, the idea that men should become soldiers was mostly imposed onto men by other men (fathers, brothers, friends, etc), not by women. You are also forgetting the fact that women were later conscripted (albeit into less dangerous jobs) and many still died.
I should add to this that the army is one of the main, if not the main, organ of state power. If a government is trying to pack the army with members of a particular group through, it's most likely a sign that the current system actually privileges that group. This is for obvious reasons; you don't want to give oppressed elements in your society control of an institution that could overthrow the current regime tomorrow if it wanted to.
Cases in point:
- SADF (conscription for whites, volunteer for Asians and coloureds, barred completely to blacks)
- IDF (conscription for Jews, volunteer for Arabs)
- Rhodesian Army (conscription for whites, volunteer for blacks)
- Wehrmacht (conscription for 'Aryan' Germans, barred completely to Jews and Slavs, volunteer for other ethnic minorities)
Original post by anarchism101
I should add to this that the army is one of the main, if not the main, organ of state power. If a government is trying to pack the army with members of a particular group through, it's most likely a sign that the current system actually privileges that group. This is for obvious reasons; you don't want to give oppressed elements in your society control of an institution that could overthrow the current regime tomorrow if it wanted to.
Cases in point:
- SADF (conscription for whites, volunteer for Asians and coloureds, barred completely to blacks)
- IDF (conscription for Jews, volunteer for Arabs)
- Rhodesian Army (conscription for whites, volunteer for blacks)
- Wehrmacht (conscription for 'Aryan' Germans, barred completely to Jews and Slavs, volunteer for other ethnic minorities)
Cases in point:
- SADF (conscription for whites, volunteer for Asians and coloureds, barred completely to blacks)
- IDF (conscription for Jews, volunteer for Arabs)
- Rhodesian Army (conscription for whites, volunteer for blacks)
- Wehrmacht (conscription for 'Aryan' Germans, barred completely to Jews and Slavs, volunteer for other ethnic minorities)
Yep, i'm sure the millions of men who were forced to fight and die felt real privileged as they saw the comrades die around them and knew it was almost inevitable they were soon to follow.
There are obvious reasons why women would be less likely to be in the army, they are physically weaker than men being the obvious one. However there are anomalies, there were plenty of physically weak guys who were just presumed to be strong enough to fight (and die) based on their gender. Your examples are fairly pointless, there have been countless armies assembled which you can find yourself its not difficult that were often slave armies, assembled by the 'elite' and were not seen as privileged.
(edited 9 years ago)
I hate it when ppl say it's wrong to hit women ! Its implying that its fine to hit men, innit!?
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