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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Incompatible?
    I doubt most women think about feminism from a principled standpoint. More "I should be able to do what I want. I want to work, I want the vote and I want to wear makeup."

    If women were principled feminists, they would surely reject ladies' night, to give another example. But the analysis doesn't often progress beyond 'woo, free entry'.
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    Clearly another attempt at stirring up **** and making feminists out to be against anything that men like/attractiveness. Equality isn't about makeup. Equality is about equal rights, so why does that have ANYTHING to do with makeup? Stop trying to think that feminists are just whining little girls who have no valid opinion on anything. THAT is why feminism is needed. When you get treated like that and reduced to the stereotype of a whining, nagging woman just because you fight equality? How does that make sense?
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    I doubt most women think about feminism from a principled standpoint. More "I should be able to do what I want. I want to work, I want the vote and I want to wear makeup."

    If women were principled feminists, they would surely reject ladies' night, to give another example. But the analysis doesn't often progress beyond 'woo, free entry'.
    I wholeheartedly agree.
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    I see it a bit like art - think of your face like a canvas

    i don't feel that painting my eyelids different colours mass me more or less beautiful or valuable or whatever. but i have fun doing it so I'm going to continue
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    It's different for multiple reasons. For one, both men and women are encouraged and do dress well and keep fit in equal measure. This is not at all replicated with women spending an average of £140,000 on makeup in their lifetimes.

    It's also different in the sense that dressing well does not affect your body and keeping fit is conducive to good health. Makeup cosmetics fundamentally change every aspect of a person's face solely to enhance their sexual appeal. It is inarguably objectifying; many even go to the extent of replacing some of their natural features with object versions.



    As argued above, the sole purpose of makeup is to increase a woman's sexual appeal. I'm sure there are numerous books and articles out there explaining this but it is obvious if you think...red lipstick signifies health blood circulation, as does blush, concealed removes any dermatological imperfections, longer eyelashes because it is seen as more feminine in our society. All of these measures are designed to increase a woman's sexual appeal. I'm not saying women always do it to attract a mate, I am saying that makeup is overwhelmingly designed and used to enhance a woman's sexual appeal; this is objectifying, and it is one of the last remaining bastions of gender inequality that is not preyed on by anyone...I suggest that this is because feminists who wear makeup want to enjoy the best of both worlds, or else are too afraid to disadvantage themselves aesthetically by fully adhering to their beliefs.

    As for it giving you more confidence, I am sure psychiatrists would have something to say in dispute of that...fundamentally and regularly changing your face, often drastically, does not se conducive to self-acceptance and self-love, which isn't the same as developing a reliance on makeup to fee aesthetically 'acceptable to society' as judged by an enormous global cosmetics industry.



    I cannot see any coherent meaning here.
    I have given you an answer OP, why do you choose to ignore my post? I have explained that make-up is not simply a means to increase sexual attraction. Even if a woman does want to look sexy, that is entirely her choice. Feminism doesn't mean that you can't want to look appealing, it means that women are not REDUCED to sexual objects. Please read my last post.
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    (Original post by themoldypeaches)
    I have given you an answer OP, why do you choose to ignore my post? I have explained that make-up is not simply a means to increase sexual attraction. Even if a woman does want to look sexy, that is entirely her choice. Feminism doesn't mean that you can't want to look appealing, it means that women are not REDUCED to sexual objects. Please read my last post.
    It has been minutes since you posted. Have some patience. I am a strong independent black woman and neither you nor the patriarchy can make me respond within a certain timeframe.

    Alternatively, see the post you quoted for some rebuttal of the points you have already made.
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    Although make up can be associated with trivialisation of women and some quite air-headed things, it can also be associated with power, intelligence and self determination. So no conflict and perhaps men are at a disadvantage in only being able to enhance their attractiveness with Lynx aftershave..
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    I do think it's more the objection to the suggestion that a woman's worth seems so much dependent on conventional beauty, more so than men and less on her achievements.
    Makeup personally, sometimes I wear it, more often I don't. I like the choice but I do often resent the difference that people (mainly men) react to me dependent on whether I am made up or not.
    Less likely to listen to a point I'm making if I'm not appealing to them visually. Men don't need to put up with this bull**** to the same extent.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    It has been minutes since you posted. Have some patience. I am a strong independent black woman and neither you nor the patriarchy can make me respond within a certain timeframe.

    Alternatively, see the post you quoted for some rebuttal of the points you have already made.
    You write that the sole purpose of make-up is to appear sexually appealing. This is untrue, if you had read my first post closely enough you would have gotten that. In my second post I explained that even if a woman chooses to wear make-up to appear sexually appealing, this is not her asking to be objectified. Admiring beauty does not constitute objectification. Did you honestly read any of what I wrote?
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    (Original post by themoldypeaches)
    You write that the sole purpose of make-up is to appear sexually appealing. This is untrue, if you had read my first post closely enough you would have gotten that.
    Either that or I disagreed with you.

    In my second post I explained that even if a woman chooses to wear make-up to appear sexually appealing, this is not her asking to be objectified. Admiring beauty does not constitute objectification. Did you honestly read any of what I wrote?
    Yes. I thought it was specious nonsense and will explain why when I feel up to wrestling with longer posts. You're just going to have to be patient.
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    (Original post by Eveiebaby)
    I do think it's more the objection to the suggestion that a woman's worth seems so much dependent on conventional beauty, more so than men and less on her achievements.
    I'm not sure what your point is here. Surely women wearing makeup only enables this social attitude to survive?
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    I doubt most women think about feminism from a principled standpoint. More "I should be able to do what I want. I want to work, I want the vote and I want to wear makeup."

    If women were principled feminists, they would surely reject ladies' night, to give another example. But the analysis doesn't often progress beyond 'woo, free entry'.
    ????
    You do realise that most club owners are male right and they only have the free club entry for women to entice MEN into the club as bait.

    On another note though, I always notice that it's the really **** clubs that hold those promotions anyway. If the event is good, the price will be equal price for everyone/
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    (Original post by Eveiebaby)
    ????
    You do realise that most club owners are male right and they only have the free club entry for women to entice MEN into the club as bait.
    The point he was making was that going along with such a system runs contrary to their stated belief in gender equality. As you point out it also treats women as a marketing ploy to bring in lascivious men, which isn't very respectful.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    I'm not sure what your point is here. Surely women wearing makeup only enables this social attitude to survive?
    I personally think that makeup should be less gendered, but it's not unfortunately up to me to change society as I understand that the notion of make up is entangled wiith gender and sexuality norms.

    I also think that women who constantly wear makeup seem to be scared to be judged/treated differently which unfortunately is true in a lot of cases unless you are in a close personal relationship with that person. Sexual selection favours women who doll themselves up more. The issues just feed into each other like a giant messy self perpetuating cycle.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    The point he was making was that going along with such a system runs contrary to their stated belief in gender equality. As you point out it also treats women as a marketing ploy to bring in lascivious men, which isn't very respectful.
    Misses the point.
    I don't support such a stupid and unequal system but then I'm not in a position to change how these venues operate. I vote with my feet and don't frequent such places, so others need to vote with their feet as well.
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    I just like to look pretty tbh :dontknow: Attracting guys is just a bonus
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    (Original post by carstairs)
    I see it a bit like art - think of your face like a canvas

    i don't feel that painting my eyelids different colours mass me more or less beautiful or valuable or whatever. but i have fun doing it so I'm going to continue
    This as well. In some cultures men where face paint and stuff.
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    (Original post by Eveiebaby)
    I don't support such a stupid and unequal system but then I'm not in a position to change how these venues operate. I vote with my feet and don't frequent such places, so others need to vote with their feet as well.
    Then you are not in the large camp of hypocritical feminists who do otherwise and you have my respect in that area.
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    (Original post by Tai Ga)
    I just like to look pretty tbh :dontknow: Attracting guys is just a bonus
    Let's delve deeper. Will you respond to the questions in the OP?

    The vast majority of women wear make-up. The vast majority of men don't. Why is that?

    Do female feminists on here see any awkward contradictions between wearing makeup on a regular basis and their support for an equal society where women are not objectified or their appearance made a defining feature of them as people any more than it is with men?

    Is it a healthy practice when looked at on its own? Does it encourage a healthy body image and self-esteem?
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    i dont particularly like or feel comfortable with any notions that are strictly gendered, but i definitely wouldnt criticise anyone for enjoying wearing make up if they were also a feminist. it is actually pretty creative and makes a lot of people feel happy with themselves, not just for men. i went to an all girls school and loads of people wore make up just because they like to. the thing is, while i think itd be cool if people decided to wear make up not depending on their gender but because they want to (because i know if it wasnt thought of as weird, boys would do it too), i think as long as people dont judge people for NOT wearing make up or conforming its not a major issue. anyway, feminism is essentially about equality, but that doesnt mean the two groups have to act exactly the same. make up is important to female culture and history, even if it has negative origins, i dont see how it is that far different to other ways of defining ourselves e.g. clothing or tattoos. its one thing to think 'i have to wear make up because i have to because i am a girl and gender barriers are super duper important' and another to think 'i believe men and women should have total equal rights and gender barriers should be smashed, but i enjoy wearing make up. so there.' its deemed feminine, obviously, but i dont think that means it should entirely be done away with. you can celebrate stereotypically feminine things and still be deemed equal. its kind of antifeminist to believe that acting 'girly' is wrong
 
 
 
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