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    To make oneself attractive in order to find a mate.

    /end thread.
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    (Original post by Balloon Baboon)
    To make oneself attractive in order to find a mate.

    /end thread.
    You haven't engaged with any of the issues raised in the thread.
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    (Original post by Eveiebaby)
    ????
    You do realise that most club owners are male right and they only have the free club entry for women to entice MEN into the club as bait.

    On another note though, I always notice that it's the really **** clubs that hold those promotions anyway. If the event is good, the price will be equal price for everyone/
    That's exactly my point. Girls get free things, lots of girls enter the club, lots of guys are enticed to enter the club, guys buy lots of drinks for girls, club owners make lots of cash.

    If you're not paying for it, you are the product being sold. Any feminist should be against these promotions - they are the crudest form of sexual objectification.
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    That's exactly my point. Girls get free things, lots of girls enter the club, lots of guys are enticed to enter the club, guys buy lots of drinks for girls, club owners make lots of cash.

    Golden rule: if you're not paying for it, you are the product being sold. This is why feminists should be against these promotions - they are the crudest form of sexual objectification.
    As I mentioned and I wasn't sure if it was clear, I think that venues using this ploy are **** anyway. I wouldn't be caught dead in such establishment. You're preaching to the wrong person, I think.
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    (Original post by Eveiebaby)
    As I mentioned and I wasn't sure if it was clear, I think that venues using this ploy are **** anyway. I wouldn't be caught dead in such establishment. You're preaching to he wrong person, I think.
    You quoted me - I'm not preaching to you, I'm just explaining the point which you questioned.
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    To be honest, I completely understand your viewpoint. I'll admit I do not agree with all of it whole-heartedly, however. Firstly, you seem to have mixed up the idea of objectifying women and just finding a woman attractive because I'll tell you now, there is a big, big difference. Secondly, make-up does not necessarily change every feature; natural make-up is hardly noticeable. For you to say this, I would honestly have to deduce that you are staring at people in magazines. If you are talking about girls in nightclubs, well obviously girls will be wearing more make-up for that. We all want to look good on a night out. It is quite fun to dress up and feel good. How about the guys who spend a ridiculous amount on 'designer' Hollister shirts? I have male friends refuse to let me see them until they've gel'd their hair. Saying that men do not have this problem at all or to the same extent just because you do not have make-up is a load of bull.

    To answer your question on why men do not wear make-up, you honestly, HONESTLY, think those men you see on TV or in magazines aren't wearing make-up?! Bless you. Also, explain to me why also you do not wear skirts or dresses? Exact same answer. You guys hate being seen as feminine and when you do, you ridicule each other for it. If you honestly want to go for the argument that you don't feel as insecure, I could ask the question of why do you shave, why wear aftershave, why do you have your hair done, why do some men spend hours at the gym, why do some guys get their eyebrows done? I bet you will start thinking that maybe there are some own personal reasons, surprise surprise. I have no idea what you're on about with changing a feature with make-up; make-up isn't THAT much of a miracle worker. Trust me, I wish it was sometimes!

    Of course one reason behind make-up is to make us look more attractive (duh!). The thing is, it is very natural for us all to want to look good for others. We all want to attract people and we all know that it will not be done without effort on appearance and this works with both genders. Someone commented earlier that it is besides Feminism to look attractive to men; the idea is to not be objectified in terms of only seeing us for our bodies. I completely agree. I'm flattered if a guy finds me attractive, don't get me wrong. What we don't like is you just acting like we are nothing more than our..., assets haha. THAT is objectifying. There is a big difference between you staring at us because you think we're pretty and would get to know us, and then staring at us like we're pieces of meat. We CAN tell the difference.

    Wearing make-up is not the problem. It is the way BOTH men and women look at it. If she is insecure, she is allowed to wear it to make her feel more confident. If she doesn't want to, she simply doesn't want to. What's the issue!? The fact that anyone can think that they can decide that women wearing make-up are going against what they believe in and are degrading themselves, is exactly the problem, and is indirectly telling women what they can and cannot wear whether you'll admit that or not, and I'm sorry, I find it unacceptable. How on Earth do you know what that woman believes in and how dare you think that a woman who chooses to wear make-up has to justify herself to you. The fact you even think you can define Feminism FOR A WOMAN is hilarious! I really hope you don't try and define Racism to those of different races to you.
    All you think about is that we just do it for men, and not just with make-up. THAT is the sexist idea. If you cannot accept that some women do not wear it only, and I mean only, for the attention of others, unfortunately that is you conforming to a very still evident patriarchal society because really, it isn't honestly that hard of an idea to process..., seriously... I really could care less about what make-up has been designed for because your Lynx aftershaves that you basically drown yourselves in have been for the same reason.

    Yes there are a lot of different views on Feminism. But if you haven't done your research, there are a lot of branches in the subject. I will not deny that a lot of women probably have no idea about it in detail, but I'm sure the majority of men have no idea either. But for us to believe we want to be in a fair and equal society, believing men and women to be equal is just common sense to be honest. Yeah, maybe some girls use Feminism to do what they want, well why can't women do what they want? What's the problem with that? Because the idea I have behind why it's been suggested is instantly leading me to an idea I'm sure you would not want me to accuse you of.

    Every girl has a right to dress up for herself, to not dress up, and to dress up for men if she does so wishes. What she chooses is quite frankly none of your concern. There are so many actual important issues out there such as women not being paid as much as men, the glass ceiling, rape, sexual harassment, etc. As much as I see your point, make-up is honestly not the big issue in Feminism, it is a way of thinking that is, and quite frankly, making girls wear make-up or not isn't going to change sexism. Please, try to tell me how we would suddenly get equal pay when we all stop wearing make-up...

    In my honest opinion, appearance is not just an issue primarily like this within Feminism, it is an issue that surrounds men and women of all races, ages, sexualities etc. Society puts a massive deal on appearance, and until people stop judging and telling people how to look and start learning to live with a wide-range of appearances such as make-up or not and actually just approach someone and not instantly judge them on their appearance, it will go. But that will never be the case.
    However, this is just my view. If you really think make-up is an insecurity issue or to look more appealing, then fine, but try to compliment girls more on personality and stop calling them 'hot' all the time, try to encourage confidence in women, because you commenting that women are ridiculous for choosing to wear make-up and belittling them only damages the insecurity you're talking about further, and it makes you sound incredibly judgemental, which I'm sure you're not. In my view, I believe you could go about your view in just a much more better, positive way. There are girls who wear make-up out of insecurity and really enhance their looks, I won't deny that, and you can do something about that much better than this. Attacking a girl's belief system is a poor way to look and go about it.

    EDIT: eeeesh that was longer than I thought! But you got the most passion out of me today so I applaud you for that.
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    (Original post by Mediterrasian)
    To be honest, I completely understand your viewpoint. I'll admit I do not agree with all of it whole-heartedly, however. Firstly, you seem to have mixed up the idea of objectifying women and just finding a woman attractive because I'll tell you now, there is a big, big difference. Secondly, make-up does not necessarily change every feature; natural make-up is hardly noticeable. For you to say this, I would honestly have to deduce that you are staring at people in magazines. If you are talking about girls in nightclubs, well obviously girls will be wearing more make-up for that. We all want to look good on a night out. It is quite fun to dress up and feel good. How about the guys who spend a ridiculous amount on 'designer' Hollister shirts? I have male friends refuse to let me see them until they've gel'd their hair. Saying that men do not have this problem at all or to the same extent just because you do not have make-up is a load of bull.

    To answer your question on why men do not wear make-up, you honestly, HONESTLY, think those men you see on TV or in magazines aren't wearing make-up?! Bless you. Also, explain to me why also you do not wear skirts or dresses? Exact same answer. You guys hate being seen as feminine and when you do, you ridicule each other for it. If you honestly want to go for the argument that you don't feel as insecure, I could ask the question of why do you shave, why wear aftershave, why do you have your hair done, why do some men spend hours at the gym, why do some guys get their eyebrows done? I bet you will start thinking that maybe there are some own personal reasons, surprise surprise. I have no idea what you're on about with changing a feature with make-up; make-up isn't THAT much of a miracle worker. Trust me, I wish it was sometimes!

    Of course one reason behind make-up is to make us look more attractive (duh!). The thing is, it is very natural for us all to want to look good for others. We all want to attract people and we all know that it will not be done without effort on appearance and this works with both genders. Someone commented earlier that it is besides Feminism to look attractive to men; the idea is to not be objectified in terms of only seeing us for our bodies. I completely agree. I'm flattered if a guy finds me attractive, don't get me wrong. What we don't like is you just acting like we are nothing more than our..., assets haha. THAT is objectifying. There is a big difference between you staring at us because you think we're pretty and would get to know us, and then staring at us like we're pieces of meat. We CAN tell the difference.

    Wearing make-up is not the problem. It is the way BOTH men and women look at it. If she is insecure, she is allowed to wear it to make her feel more confident. If she doesn't want to, she simply doesn't want to. What's the issue!? The fact that anyone can think that they can decide that women wearing make-up are going against what they believe in and are degrading themselves, is exactly the problem, and is indirectly telling women what they can and cannot wear whether you'll admit that or not, and I'm sorry, I find it unacceptable. How on Earth do you know what that woman believes in and how dare you think that a woman who chooses to wear make-up has to justify herself to you. The fact you even think you can define Feminism FOR A WOMAN is hilarious! I really hope you don't try and define Racism to those of different races to you.
    All you think about is that we just do it for men, and not just with make-up. THAT is the sexist idea. If you cannot accept that some women do not wear it only, and I mean only, for the attention of others, unfortunately that is you conforming to a very still evident patriarchal society because really, it isn't honestly that hard of an idea to process..., seriously... I really could care less about what make-up has been designed for because your Lynx aftershaves that you basically drown yourselves in have been for the same reason.

    Yes there are a lot of different views on Feminism. But if you haven't done your research, there are a lot of branches in the subject. I will not deny that a lot of women probably have no idea about it in detail, but I'm sure the majority of men have no idea either. But for us to believe we want to be in a fair and equal society, believing men and women to be equal is just common sense to be honest. Yeah, maybe some girls use Feminism to do what they want, well why can't women do what they want? What's the problem with that? Because the idea I have behind why it's been suggested is instantly leading me to an idea I'm sure you would not want me to accuse you of.

    Every girl has a right to dress up for herself, to not dress up, and to dress up for men if she does so wishes. What she chooses is quite frankly none of your concern. There are so many actual important issues out there such as women not being paid as much as men, the glass ceiling, rape, sexual harassment, etc. As much as I see your point, make-up is honestly not the big issue in Feminism, it is a way of thinking that is, and quite frankly, making girls wear make-up or not isn't going to change sexism. Please, try to tell me how we would suddenly get equal pay when we all stop wearing make-up...

    In my honest opinion, appearance is not just an issue primarily like this within Feminism, it is an issue that surrounds men and women of all races, ages, sexualities etc. Society puts a massive deal on appearance, and until people stop judging and telling people how to look and start learning to live with a wide-range of appearances such as make-up or not and actually just approach someone and not instantly judge them on their appearance, it will go. But that will never be the case.
    However, this is just my view. If you really think make-up is an insecurity issue or to look more appealing, then fine, but try to compliment girls more on personality and stop calling them 'hot' all the time, try to encourage confidence in women, because you commenting that women are ridiculous for choosing to wear make-up and belittling them only damages the insecurity you're talking about further, and it makes you sound incredibly judgemental, which I'm sure you're not. In my view, I believe you could go about your view in just a much more better, positive way. There are girls who wear make-up out of insecurity and really enhance their looks, I won't deny that, and you can do something about that much better than this. Attacking a girl's belief system is a poor way to look and go about it.

    EDIT: eeeesh that was longer than I thought! But you got the most passion out of me today so I applaud you for that.
    There is absolutely no way I am going to wade my way through this tangled enormity. Can you edit it down to about half its size?
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    You haven't engaged with any of the issues raised in the thread.

    I don't believe it's needed.
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    (Original post by Balloon Baboon)
    I don't believe it's needed.
    What don't you believe is needed?
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    What don't you believe is needed?

    To engage any of the issues you have raised. Simplified; we try to make ourselves look better, even act and performe better, so as to be more attractive to a potential mate. In doing so we establish and maintain our primal instinct - to mate.
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    It's difficult. The idea of makeup itself is hardly feminist. Cosmetics companies push the idea onto women constantly that they must wear makeup to be beautiful (obviously because it is profitable to them). It is something which is ingrained within us. Men are, apparently, attractive enough without enhancement. Many women try to frame makeup as something which is feminist because they themselves choose to wear it and wear it from themselves. I can see this argument, but at the same time, they are still giving their money to a company built on the destruction of women's self confidence and their money is helping to contribute to this culture and way of thinking. We do not live in a bubble. Nobody makes a completely individual choice without some sort of society and conformity influence.

    THAT BEING SAID. I wear makeup constantly. I enjoy makeup. believe many feminist values are correct, but I don't adhere to many of them, for strictly selfish reasons. I wear makeup to make myself feel attractive and generally seem attractive to others. I do not deny this. Sometimes I feel calling myself an in and out feminist is hypocritical, despite pretty much supporting many feminist ideas. Society has been conditioned to think makeup on women is attractive and I can't see that any time soon. I do not blame women in the least for being torn between boycotting cosmetic companies and giving into wearing makeup. Sometimes it's hard to not conform within a society built on conformity.

    If you don't wear makeup, all the more power to you. Seriously.
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    there's too much both way shaming, if you want to wear it you should not be judged for wearing

    if you dont wear it, it should be the same

    sadly its not tho, and you can't win either way

    theres a lot of girl on girl crime here tho because men rarely notice make up either way...
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    (Original post by KimonoMyHouse)
    It's difficult. The idea of makeup itself is hardly feminist. Cosmetics companies push the idea onto women constantly that they must wear makeup to be beautiful (obviously because it is profitable to them). It is something which is ingrained within us. Men are, apparently, attractive enough without enhancement. Many women try to frame makeup as something which is feminist because they themselves choose to wear it and wear it from themselves. I can see this argument, but at the same time, they are still giving their money to a company built on the destruction of women's self confidence and their money is helping to contribute to this culture and way of thinking. We do not live in a bubble. Nobody makes a completely individual choice without some sort of society and conformity influence.

    THAT BEING SAID. I wear makeup constantly. I enjoy makeup. believe many feminist values are correct, but I don't adhere to many of them, for strictly selfish reasons. I wear makeup to make myself feel attractive and generally seem attractive to others. I do not deny this. Sometimes I feel calling myself an in and out feminist is hypocritical, despite pretty much supporting many feminist ideas. Society has been conditioned to think makeup on women is attractive and I can't see that any time soon. I do not blame women in the least for being torn between boycotting cosmetic companies and giving into wearing makeup. Sometimes it's hard to not conform within a society built on conformity.

    If you don't wear makeup, all the more power to you. Seriously.
    my thoughts exactly but i'm so un-eloquent haha
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    (Original post by Balloon Baboon)
    To engage any of the issues you have raised. Simplified; we try to make ourselves look better, even act and performe better, so as to be more attractive to a potential mate. In doing so we establish and maintain our primal instinct - to mate.
    Putting aside the fact that many women have disagreed with your view on makeup in this thread, the fact that attracting a mate is one of the reasons women wear makeup doesn't make any debate about the hypocrisy of feminists wearing makeup redundant. I don't understand how you're coming to that conclusion.
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    (Original post by luuucyx)
    there's too much both way shaming, if you want to wear it you should not be judged for wearing

    if you dont wear it, it should be the same

    sadly its not tho, and you can't win either way

    theres a lot of girl on girl crime here tho because men rarely notice make up either way...
    There is some justice in disapproving of feminists for embracing gender inequality when they feel it suits them.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Putting aside the fact that many women have disagreed with your view on makeup in this thread, the fact that attracting a mate is one of the reasons women wear makeup doesn't make any debate about the hypocrisy of feminists wearing makeup redundant. I don't understand how you're coming to that conclusion.

    Ok, let's ask the question in another way; what's the aim of wearing makeup?
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    (Original post by Balloon Baboon)
    Ok, let's ask the question in another way; what's the aim of wearing makeup?
    That isn't the question another way, it's an entirely different question. I think you may be mistaking this thread for another one. Have you read the OP?
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    Going to actually attempt to outright answer some of OP's questions.

    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Incompatible?

    The vast majority of women wear make-up. The vast majority of men don't. Why is that?
    Women:
    1- Other women wear makeup, so if you yourself don't, you likely won't look as good as everyone else. In turn you're less likely to attract men (and women) and also feel bad about yourself in the presence of other women who look prettier.
    2- It's highly encouraged from a young age. Young girls from childhood are encouraged by parents and the media to wear makeup, so of course many girls grow up with either an interest in wearing makeup, or feeling it's a requirement.
    3- Light makeup is there only to cover up impurities. Bad skin, dark circles, short eyelashes, all those are deemed unattractive by western society on both men and women. People want to look nicer.

    Men:
    1- From a young age men are discouraged from being girly or having feminine interests (eg, makeup). Often men/boys fear they will be made fun of if they wear makeup, if it's crossed their mind to wear it. Or it hasn't crossed their mind to wear it because they've not been brought up believing they need it. Whether we want to admit it or not, I think we see hyper-feminine things as 'worse'. Plenty of men I know wish they could cover up their spots with some concealer but fear they'll be made fun of.
    2- Men buy into other things though. Many men spend hours in the gym to achieve a perfect body (women do spend a lot of time on their bodies though), they take steroids, style their hair, and do often tend to have a 'beauty regime' for their skin.

    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Incompatible?

    Do female feminists on here see any awkward contradictions between wearing makeup on a regular basis and their support for an equal society where women are not objectified or their appearance made a defining feature of them as people any more than it is with men?
    Personally, I do. I identify as a feminist, but feminism is a huge branch of different beliefs, so my idea of feminism may be different to another persons mind you.
    As much as it would be nice for all us women to throw out our makeup and all embrace how we naturally look; it's not going to happen. The media still gives men and women a distorted idea of beauty through makeup and photoshop, so people definitely feel they need it, even if the importance placed on makeup can conflict with basic idea's of feminism.
    Then again, just because a woman wears makeup doesn't mean she shouldn't be able to demand equality and be free from objectification. There's a difference between objectification and trying to look better.

    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Incompatible?

    Is it a healthy practice when looked at on its own? Does it encourage a healthy body image and self-esteem?
    No, I don't think it does. But my above answers pretty much answer this question too. Many other things also discourage healthy body image and self esteem too.

    All just my opinions though. I don't speak for the female population.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    That isn't the question another way, it's an entirely different question. I think you may be mistaking this thread for another one. Have you read the OP?

    Of course, twice. I was being facetious!
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    (Original post by Balloon Baboon)
    Of course, twice. I was being facetious!
    You are invariably impossible to understand.
 
 
 
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