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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    You are invariably impossible to understand.

    Just the way I like it, Birkenhead.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    There is some justice in disapproving of feminists for embracing gender inequality when they feel it suits them.
    No I totally agree, a lot of feminists (people in general) will put up with discrimination/unfairness if it benefits them.

    I think the key is to acceptance and tolerance of views, I think that a lot of the problems do come from girl on girl hate more so than men oppressing women.

    Also, teaching respect regardless of gender/race/sexuality, because ultimately all those issues go hand in hand with each other being just a case of not respecting peoples differences..
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    This doesn't have to be presented as an either-or situation. We can admit that we wear make-up because of social pressure and still do it because we enjoy it.
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    (Original post by Philbert)
    This doesn't have to be presented as an either-or situation. We can admit that we wear make-up because of social pressure and still do it because we enjoy it.
    The OP lays out the discussion points of the thread. I haven't questioned whether women wear makeup because of social pressure or whether they enjoy it or not. I've asked whether wearing makeup is incompatible with self-identifying as a feminist.
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    (Original post by Balloon Baboon)
    Just the way I like it, Birkenhead.
    Thank you for your valuable contributions.
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    (Original post by Smash Bandicoot)
    If you are straight, you do not wear a pretty dress or apply make-up to feel good about yourself alone, you're still conforming to the notion that you are valued more if you support your own objectification.
    I beg to differ, of course it's nice to see someone attractive but it's not like staring at yourself awestruck would be the only possibly enjoyable part of applying and wearing make-up. Enhancing my physical appearance is an act of showing respect to the body I've been blessed with, of undoing self-destruction, it's almost religious.

    Besides, my eyes are the most reliable source of information I've got so my mirror image is the only undeniable proof of my self-worth in existence. Say what you like but it's the only one that I ever will accept.

    (Original post by Eveiebaby)
    I do think it's more the objection to the suggestion that a woman's worth seems so much dependent on conventional beauty, more so than men and less on her achievements.
    Makeup personally, sometimes I wear it, more often I don't. I like the choice but I do often resent the difference that people (mainly men) react to me dependent on whether I am made up or not.
    Less likely to listen to a point I'm making if I'm not appealing to them visually. Men don't need to put up with this bull**** to the same extent.
    True and exhausting

    (Original post by KimonoMyHouse)
    It's difficult. The idea of makeup itself is hardly feminist. Cosmetics companies push the idea onto women constantly that they must wear makeup to be beautiful (obviously because it is profitable to them). It is something which is ingrained within us. Men are, apparently, attractive enough without enhancement. Many women try to frame makeup as something which is feminist because they themselves choose to wear it and wear it from themselves. I can see this argument, but at the same time, they are still giving their money to a company built on the destruction of women's self confidence and their money is helping to contribute to this culture and way of thinking. We do not live in a bubble. Nobody makes a completely individual choice without some sort of society and conformity influence.

    THAT BEING SAID. I wear makeup constantly. I enjoy makeup. believe many feminist values are correct, but I don't adhere to many of them, for strictly selfish reasons. I wear makeup to make myself feel attractive and generally seem attractive to others. I do not deny this. Sometimes I feel calling myself an in and out feminist is hypocritical, despite pretty much supporting many feminist ideas. Society has been conditioned to think makeup on women is attractive and I can't see that any time soon. I do not blame women in the least for being torn between boycotting cosmetic companies and giving into wearing makeup. Sometimes it's hard to not conform within a society built on conformity.

    If you don't wear makeup, all the more power to you. Seriously.
    I link the origins of make-up to some ethereal Egyptian women, to whom it gave empowerment in a patriarchal society. This might be some crazy defence of a makeup-wearing feminist, sorry for that, but I interpret most of their ads featuring utopia and/or seduction to mean that cosmetics is a benign industry shielding women from negative aspects of reality. Your argument is quite convincing though
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    I don't see any contradiction between being a feminist & wearing makeup. I class myself as a feminist & wear makeup because I like how I look in it, not because I feel I have to.
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    (Original post by Alesha1991)
    I don't see any contradiction between being a feminist & wearing makeup. I class myself as a feminist & wear makeup because I like how I look in it, not because I feel I have to.
    Would you be able to answer the questions in the OP?
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    (Original post by Ombre)
    I link the origins of make-up to some ethereal Egyptian women, to whom it gave empowerment in a patriarchal society. This might be some crazy defence of a makeup-wearing feminist, sorry for that, but I interpret most of their ads featuring utopia and/or seduction to mean that cosmetics is a benign industry shielding women from negative aspects of reality.
    What is this supposed to mean? It does sound like a crazy defence.
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    Can we just clarify here that feminism means to believe in the equality of the sexes? Not to hate men, adore women or be a total buzzkill.

    By that logic, my belief as a feminist is that both women and men should be completely free to choose to wear (or not wear) makeup so as to suit them! There are hundreds of different reasons why people wear makeup and I think we should respect that.
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    I personally think as a feminist that everyone should do whatever they choose with their makeup once it makes them feel happy. Be that a full face of makeup and thick false lashes, or no makeup at all. Feminism to me is about feeling happy about yourself as you are, done up or done down.
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    (Original post by helenapraidell)
    I personally think as a feminist that everyone should do whatever they choose with their makeup once it makes them feel happy. Be that a full face of makeup and thick false lashes, or no makeup at all. Feminism to me is about feeling happy about yourself as you are, done up or done down.

    (Original post by scavi2008)
    Can we just clarify here that feminism means to believe in the equality of the sexes? Not to hate men, adore women or be a total buzzkill.
    Why do you feel this reminder is necessary here? The whole point of this thread is discussing whether the fact that an overwhelming majority of women replace their natural facial features with object versions, encouraged by a multi-billion pound global industry, while men overwhelmingly do not, is compatible with self I identifying as a feminist who wants gender equality and rejects sexual objectification of women. To me and others, including women in this thread, it is not.

    By that logic, my belief as a feminist is that both women and men should be completely free to choose to wear (or not wear) makeup so as to suit them! There are hundreds of different reasons why people wear makeup and I think we should respect that.
    Once again, I'm going to ask you to respond to the questions in the OP, because some challenges to these arguments are contained in those questions.

    Here they are:

    The vast majority of women wear make-up. The vast majority of men don't. Why is that?

    Do female feminists on here see any awkward contradictions between wearing makeup on a regular basis and their support for an equal society where women are not objectified or their appearance made a defining feature of them as people any more than it is with men?

    Is it a healthy practice when looked at on its own? Does it encourage a healthy body image and self-esteem?
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Smash Bandicoot has said much of what I was going to say in response to this. In short, I don't buy it.
    This. Women are in competition with other women, which is why you also have the "slut shaming" double standard. Slightly off-topic, but sex is a commodity women use to trade with men. Because easy women devalue that commodity for the classier birds, they are socially shamed. Feminists attack men for this, but it's really themselves and biology to blame. Most feminists are pretty fugly tho.
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    I'd say women wear make up not for men, but to continuously aim for airbrushed perfection which is rammed down our throats by the media.

    Not a good reason, but it's damned near impossible to avoid feeling crappy about ones self when we have the magazines and other media outlets we do.

    It's a shame

    Most men don't really care for make up/like minimal make up/ask their gf's to wear less etc
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    I'd also say that we're steering towards a society where men CAN wear make up with out judgement. I know of quite a few who wear powder/concealer to improve the appearance of their complexion. I welcome it. Men should be able to wear make up if they so wish. It's no biggie
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Would you be able to answer the questions in the OP?
    I already answered why I choose to wear makeup- if you mean the double standard of men not being expected to wear makeup I suppose it's down to stereotypes about gender & not being seen to be too feminine. Since you mentioned false lashes I'll admit I overdid it with these when I was younger. I went through a phase of wearing massive false lashes & way too much eye makeup. I changed my style when I started wearing glasses- I couldn't wear the lashes without them brushing against my lenses & they made my eye makeup look really over the top. It's a bit embarrassing to see pictures of how I looked as a teenager but I thought it looked good at the time. Basically, if someone's happy wearing a crazy amount of makeup, or no makeup at at all then it comes down to personal choice.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    The vast majority of women wear make-up. The vast majority of men don't. Why is that?

    Do female feminists on here see any awkward contradictions between wearing makeup on a regular basis and their support for an equal society where women are not objectified or their appearance made a defining feature of them as people any more than it is with men?

    Is it a healthy practice when looked at on its own? Does it encourage a healthy body image and self-esteem?
    View of a make-up wearing feminist here

    The main reason many women wear make-up and men don't is social norms, which tell us it is something for females and which most people listen to. It's nothing set in stone and can change - there was a time when high heels where considered masculine footwear!

    Personally I don't. You can have the desire to look a certain way without that being a defining feature of you or you being objectified. Men take care of their appearance too in different ways, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. What I would say is a problem is when women feel forced or pressured into wearing make-up in order to look attractive, fit in with the crowd (even if that crowd is predominantly female!) or please men. It should be a complete free choice without social stigma or obligation either way, much like men can choose how to style their facial hair or whether to shave it off completely. Basically it's the way many women feel like they don't have the free choice to wear make-up or not that's the problem, rather than the fact that they succumb to the pressure to do so or that those who do feel they have the freedom sometimes choose to do so.

    In terms of being a 'healthy' practice, I think it entirely depends. If it's done only to meet social pressures or because you're made to feel like you can't be attractive or look good without it, implicitly that there's something wrong with your natural face, that's a problem. The problem however is on a societal level, not an individual one - I would take great issue with any "feminist" that criticised a woman for wearing make-up when pressured to do so, rather than criticising the social pressures that led to it! Aside from that though, there's nothing inherently wrong with it - it can be used simply because you prefer the way you look with make-up on, or because it's something fun and potentially creative and even social to do, and for me that's not a problem at all.
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    (Original post by Olderandwiser23)
    I'd say women wear make up not for men, but to continuously aim for airbrushed perfection which is rammed down our throats by the media.

    Not a good reason, but it's damned near impossible to avoid feeling crappy about ones self when we have the magazines and other media outlets we do.

    So you're going to ignore biology and claim it's all down to the media making women feel bad? That is indeed a simple answer, and a completely wrong one. It's a matter of competition. The self-esteem issues girls face is down to a lack of interest from males.

    The women who peddle this bull**** about fat acceptance, free-bleeding and all other nonsense, in which, the woman must do absolutely nothing to entice the man, but the man is still somehow obliged to chase, are absolutely deluded individuals. They are themselves fat, lazy, ugly and have matching personalities- who simply cannot compete.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    What is this supposed to mean? It does sound like a crazy defence.
    It's supposed to mean that some people actually prefer unrealistic to realistic, so the cosmetic industry's primary intention could be making dreamy types buy overpriced cosmetics instead of making women feel ugly and less confident. This might be a biased opinion because I use it to justify my own actions
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    (Original post by HigherMinion)
    So you're going to ignore biology and claim it's all down to the media making women feel bad? That is indeed a simple answer, and a completely wrong one. It's a matter of competition. The self-esteem issues girls face is down to a lack of interest from males.

    The women who peddle this bull**** about fat acceptance, free-bleeding and all other nonsense, in which, the woman must do absolutely nothing to entice the man, but the man is still somehow obliged to chase, are absolutely deluded individuals. They are themselves fat, lazy, ugly and have matching personalities- who simply cannot compete.
    Self esteem issues wouldn't occur if we didn't have societal pressures to conform to an ideal. No one is born with low self esteem.


    Your second paragraph makes absolutely zero sense (other than quite offensive) so I can't respond to that part specifically. Sorry.
 
 
 
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