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    (Original post by Green_Pink)
    View of a make-up wearing feminist here

    The main reason many women wear make-up and men don't is social norms, which tell us it is something for females and which most people listen to. It's nothing set in stone and can change - there was a time when high heels where considered masculine footwear!

    Personally I don't. You can have the desire to look a certain way without that being a defining feature of you or you being objectified. Men take care of their appearance too in different ways, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. What I would say is a problem is when women feel forced or pressured into wearing make-up in order to look attractive, fit in with the crowd (even if that crowd is predominantly female!) or please men. It should be a complete free choice without social stigma or obligation either way, much like men can choose how to style their facial hair or whether to shave it off completely. Basically it's the way many women feel like they don't have the free choice to wear make-up or not that's the problem, rather than the fact that they succumb to the pressure to do so or that those who do feel they have the freedom sometimes choose to do so.

    In terms of being a 'healthy' practice, I think it entirely depends. If it's done only to meet social pressures or because you're made to feel like you can't be attractive or look good without it, implicitly that there's something wrong with your natural face, that's a problem. The problem however is on a societal level, not an individual one - I would take great issue with any "feminist" that criticised a woman for wearing make-up when pressured to do so, rather than criticising the social pressures that led to it! Aside from that though, there's nothing inherently wrong with it - it can be used simply because you prefer the way you look with make-up on, or because it's something fun and potentially creative and even social to do, and for me that's not a problem at all.
    Beautifully said :-)
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    There very small number of girl who purely wear make up for themselves, otherwise majority wear for men or other women.

    Why majority of guys don't wear make up? Because they are accepted the way they are naturally, women don't judge then if their skin is not spotless.

    Opposite is not true, men are looking for perfection, smooth skin, enhanced features, so women feel the need to wear it.

    I know county in my country, where men doesn't like make up, prefer natural look and not a single lady wears make up...they are not forbidden or anything, men just don't like 'enhanced, fake, painted face'. I wonder why not single woman wears make up and claims they do it for themselves.
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    (Original post by Olderandwiser23)
    Self esteem issues wouldn't occur if we didn't have societal pressures to conform to an ideal. No one is born with low self esteem.
    You admit that the social expectation to wear makeup causes self-esteem issues, and you endorse wearing makeup. The only way social attitudes change is by people resisting them, which makes it completely nonsensical to continue wearing makeup unless you are happy with the self-esteem issues it causes.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    You admit that the social expectation to wear makeup causes self-esteem issues, and you endorse wearing makeup. The only way social attitudes change is by people resisting them, which makes it completely nonsensical to continue wearing makeup unless you are happy with the self-esteem issues it causes.
    I don't think resisting is always the answer. Educating people is usually more effective, enhancing women's self esteem. Reducing photoshop use etc


    Resisting is aggressive and aggression doesn't usually lead to any positive changes.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    You admit that the social expectation to wear makeup causes self-esteem issues, and you endorse wearing makeup. The only way social attitudes change is by people resisting them, which makes it completely nonsensical to continue wearing makeup unless you are happy with the self-esteem issues it causes.
    I don't really agree with your logic there. You can show resistance to those social attitudes by refusing to shame women for how they look, and calling out those who do. You're also missing the fact that make-up isn't isolated but part of a wider problem where women are regularly pressured to look a certain way, such as the expectation we'll shave our legs: you could effectively resist objectification, social pressures and conventional beauty standards by refusing to do so if you don't want to, which would also have a wider impact on the pressure to wear make-up. And finally, it would be just as bad if women who actually do wish to wear make-up wear pressured into not doing so by other women/"feminists" as it is for them to be pressured into wearing it! Feminism should be about women having the liberty to make their own free choices, not forcing other women to make certain choices as part of a silly, childish gesture sticking a middle finger up to the establishment/patriarchy.
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    (Original post by Olderandwiser23)
    I don't think resisting is always the answer. Educating people is usually more effective, enhancing women's self esteem. Reducing photoshop use etc
    This isn't about photoshop, this is about makeup. How do you propose we educate women out of self-esteem issues as a result of makeup, or society out of the expectation? The point is that society expects women to wear makeup and punishes them when they don't; the surest and most permanent way of combatting this is for women to boycott makeup altogether and readjust society's prejudice.

    Resisting is aggressive and aggression doesn't usually lead to any positive changes.
    This flies in the face of thousands of years of civil rights history all over the world.
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    (Original post by Green_Pink)
    I don't really agree with your logic there. You can show resistance to those social attitudes by refusing to shame women for how they look, and calling out those who do.
    This wouldn't readjust society's attitude. The only way society will ever be able to accept that makeup is not an expected part of a woman's appearance is if women take action themselves to not conform to that expectation themselves. Your suggestion is rather like the idea that not being racist or shaming those who were would have had much of an impact in 1950s USA, when it is plain that what was needed was solidarity action by the targets of this racism. The sources of real influence on public opinion, like businesses and the media, make a great deal of money from makeup, and the two cents action by disparate individuals is not going to change an ingrained social attitude.

    You're also missing the fact that make-up isn't isolated but part of a wider problem where women are regularly pressured to look a certain way, such as the expectation we'll shave our legs: you could effectively resist objectification, social pressures and conventional beauty standards by refusing to do so if you don't want to, which would also have a wider impact on the pressure to wear make-up.
    I'm not 'missing' anything; the thread is aimed specifically at makeup. Shaving your legs is not as objectifying as replacing the natural skin and features of your face with object versions. Though you seem here to be supporting my argument that women should abstain from these practices if they resent the expectations that they be a matter of course; yet you don't agree with this when it comes to makeup...

    And finally, it would be just as bad if women who actually do wish to wear make-up wear pressured into not doing so by other women/"feminists" as it is for them to be pressured into wearing it!
    A good thing I didn't suggest this, then. I suggested women who didn't want to wear makeup abstained from it en masse.

    Feminism should be about women having the liberty to make their own free choices, not forcing other women to make certain choices as part of a silly, childish gesture sticking a middle finger up to the establishment/patriarchy.
    Again, I didn't suggest this. I suggested that women who didn't want to wear makeup abstained from it en masse so that society would grow not to expect them to do something they didn't want to and punished them for not doing so. This isn't a childish gesture and it would enhance the liberty of these women to do as they wished without impinging on the liberty of those that wanted different things. I really don't see how you've managed to interpret anything like what you've said from my posts.
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    I think in a perfect world girls wouldn't feel socially pressured to wear make up (or men just as pressured to wear it??) but I don't honestly think that girls wearing make up is some kind of feminist **** up. I think make up is a lot about girls judging other girls and being socially pressured to wear make up by other girls and the media. I don't think any girls wear make up to attract men - loads like the look of it and enjoy applying it and stuff.
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    (Original post by suirrel)
    I think in a perfect world girls wouldn't feel socially pressured to wear make up (or men just as pressured to wear it??) but I don't honestly think that girls wearing make up is some kind of feminist **** up. I think make up is a lot about girls judging other girls and being socially pressured to wear make up by other girls and the media. I don't think any girls wear make up to attract men - loads like the look of it and enjoy applying it and stuff.
    In this thread alone many women have admitted to wearing makeup at least partly to attract men. You are naive if you think it is not often a motivation, and definitely if you think no girls do it at least partly for that reason.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    This isn't about photoshop, this is about makeup. How do you propose we educate women out of self-esteem issues as a result of makeup, or society out of the expectation? The point is that society expects women to wear makeup and punishes them when they don't; the surest and most permanent way of combatting this is for women to boycott makeup altogether and readjust society's prejudice.



    This flies in the face of thousands of years of civil rights history all over the world.
    Yes but we wear make up in order to continue to attempt to achieve the photoshopped perfect look we see in the magazines. How is that not obvious? We have pictures of celebrity perfection thrown at us all day all saying "oh I use blah blah make up up" etc we all buy it to look like the celeb spikes person.
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    Women currently have the choice to wear it or not men currently have a choice to wear it or not. I don't see this as a massive cause for concern.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Incompatible?

    The vast majority of women wear make-up. The vast majority of men don't. Why is that?

    Do female feminists on here see any awkward contradictions between wearing makeup on a regular basis and their support for an equal society where women are not objectified or their appearance made a defining feature of them as people any more than it is with men?

    Is it a healthy practice when looked at on its own? Does it encourage a healthy body image and self-esteem?
    I'm a feminist and for me make up (along with high heels, sex work, removing body hair etc) all fall into the category of women should be able to partake or not partake and be be respected. Having the choice is what is important.
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    (Original post by Olderandwiser23)
    Yes but we wear make up in order to continue to attempt to achieve the photoshopped perfect look we see in the magazines. How is that not obvious? We have pictures of celebrity perfection thrown at us all day all saying "oh I use blah blah make up up" etc we all buy it to look like the celeb spikes person.
    If so, then the reasons for wearing makeup have certainly changed. Makeup far preceded photoshop and mass media.

    I suspect that if widely distributed pictures of celebrity perfection evaporated tomorrow, women would still be wearing makeup in a hundred years' time.
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    I don't wear make up every single day. When I do, it's generally to look attractive. Attractive to men. I don't need to attract women. If I am going to be around a bunch of women all day, I am less likely to bother. If there are men, and men i may have some chance of attracting in some way. Make up.
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    Sometimes make-up is used to disguise heartache or plans for super-villainy for example, The Joker.
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    (Original post by taylorg292)
    I'm a feminist and for me make up (along with high heels, sex work, removing body hair etc) all fall into the category of women should be able to partake or not partake and be be respected. Having the choice is what is important.
    The question is what motivates the choice. The choices made by women who have been conditioned their entire lives to prioritise their appearance are likely to be fettered. And while makeup is so ubiquitous, when will that conditioning end?
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    If you think make up somehow goes against feminism - you're missing the point of what feminism is. It's a woman's freedom and choice to do what she wants without restraints, in the same way as men.

    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    The vast majority of women wear make-up. The vast majority of men don't. Why is that?
    Men haven't been socially conditioned to from childhood.
    It is seen as opposing masculinity. Most men are of course in favour of being perceived as 'masculine'.

    I don't see why men can't wear make up in the same way as women. In fact most actors of course will wear it regularly when on set.


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    Its a crying shame that feminism today seeks to destroy feminine behavior.

    Yes to equality under the law, no to militants.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Its a crying shame that feminism today seeks to destroy feminine behavior.

    Yes to equality under the law, no to militants.
    Since when did make up make a woman feminine?
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    Like with shaving, I am under no illusion that I started using make up because I saw it as "the norm". Also similarly to shaving, I have realised as I've grown up that I do have a choice and that I will continue to do these things because they have become a personal preference, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

    I don't wear make up every day, nor do I feel like society binds me to do so. There was a time when I felt the need to but it's not because I am female. It's because I have insecurities that we all have, male or female, and make up helped me. My gripe is rather, why is it so socially unacceptable for men to wear make up?

    Aside from this I genuinely enjoy collecting, comparing, and applying make up. (Call me sad, but it has become a hobby, the only "artistic" thing I am good at).

    Don't denounce me or my status as a feminist for exercising this choice.
 
 
 
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