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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    Did the joke genuinely offend you? Or is it that you simply dislike the audacity of a white male comically miscasting himself as a black woman?
    In the words of Maggie Smith's Dowager Countess describing Isobel Crawley, 'she runs on indignation'.
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    (Original post by Green_Pink)
    Even though I'm not a Marxist, it seems a bit silly to instantly dismiss academic works just because they build on a certain school of thought.
    Marxists are incredibly dishonest "academics". They use academic language, but also remember, not all academic schools are equal. I will choose to dismiss Marxism. That is not to say I haven't studied it- hell, you have to if you're in education in the US or UK- it's unavoidable!

    Multiculturalism is a Marxist's wet dream: divide and conquer. And they want to segregate women from men, too.

    EDIT: to put this a better way: all I am doing is pointing out flaws in a school of thought dominant in academia.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    No, I don't think I am, and I'm going to re-post what I said to another poster to illustrate why. No-one is suggesting women aren't at liberty to make their own choices, what is being suggested is that some of these choices might be hypocritical with their stated feminist values.

    Replacing your natural skin and features with object versions is not an obvious bed-mate with a movement determined to combat female objectification, nor when it is expected by society of women and overwhelmingly done only by women with a movement determined to combat gender inequality and a general overemphasis on the importance of a woman's appearance.
    You're hardly replacing your natural skin by putting a bit of make up on. It's not like you can't recognise someone when they wear it.
    It is not our fault that the female body is so objectified - would you make the same argument for short skirts and dresses too? Should we stop wearing them too?

    You acknowledge that women are socially conditioned to wear makeup, yet you don't see any contradictions with the feminist notion that women should not be objectified or female appearance be emphasised more than men in conforming to this expectation?
    Like I said above, it's not our fault as women that we have been sexually objectified since time began. I don't agree that make up is a big part of objectification. Also, I don't recall any 'feminist notion' that stated we shouldn't emphasise our appearance.



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    (Original post by corax)
    You're hardly replacing your natural skin by putting a bit of make up on. It's not like you can't recognise someone when they wear it.
    It is not our fault that the female body is so objectified - would you make the same argument for short skirts and dresses too? Should we stop wearing them too?


    Like I said above, it's not our fault as women that we have been sexually objectified since time began. I don't agree that make up is a big part of objectification. Also, I don't recall any 'feminist notion' that stated we shouldn't emphasise our appearance.



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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    The joke is funny because the commonly used phrase is an ill-fitting description of himself. The joke is not a dig at black women, and one's failure to understand the innocent nature of the joke is not a validation of its supposed racial insensitivity. Moreover, I would go as far to say that to be offended by the joke would be unreasonable. It has nothing to do with his 'advantage,' but the simple fact he is not actually a strong, independent black woman.

    In other words: it wasn't racist; get over yourself.
    Needless to say I entirely agree with this
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    Clearly just jealous guys can't wear it.

    In all serious though, why should there be a correlation. Why can't someone be regarded for their personality and intellect as well as look nice? Girls generally wear makeup so that they feel prettier/as pretty as other girls in the room. It's so they feel confident and smart. Just the same as a guy making sure his shirt is ironed nicely and his shoes are polished. It's a finishing touch that has little or nothing to do with gender inequality.
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    (Original post by HigherMinion)
    Marxists are incredibly dishonest "academics". They use academic language, but also remember, not all academic schools are equal. I will choose to dismiss Marxism. That is not to say I haven't studied it- hell, you have to if you're in education in the US or UK- it's unavoidable!

    Multiculturalism is a Marxist's wet dream: divide and conquer. And they want to segregate women from men, too.

    EDIT: to put this a better way: all I am doing is pointing out flaws in a school of thought dominant in academia.
    You say that, but as far as I can see you haven't actually pointed out any of the flaws at all, just generally dismissed one concept of racism/sexism purely on the basis that it's derived from Marx's analysis of class and power. I don't really think "divide and conquer" is an appropriate description considering Marxists believe we are divided only by class, not by nationality and all sorts of other factors often used to group people by academics from other backgrounds. And you've shown nothing at all to suggest Marxist theorists want to implement gendered segregation either!
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    (Original post by Green_Pink)
    You say that, but as far as I can see you haven't actually pointed out any of the flaws at all, just generally dismissed one concept of racism/sexism purely on the basis that it's derived from Marx's analysis of class and power. I don't really think "divide and conquer" is an appropriate description considering Marxists believe we are divided only by class, not by nationality and all sorts of other factors often used to group people by academics from other backgrounds. And you've shown nothing at all to suggest Marxist theorists want to implement gendered segregation either!
    Feminism stems from Marxism. You can replace bourgeois with males and proles with females and you've got Feminism. Same dodgy ideology.
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    (Original post by HigherMinion)
    Feminism stems from Marxism. You can replace bourgeois with males and proles with females and you've got Feminism. Same dodgy ideology.
    Some strands of feminism have Marxist influences, but plenty of others don't and there are huge numbers of people who are feminists, believing that men and women currently are not equal although they should be, and don't believe in Marxism. I also don't know any feminists who believe women should have a revolution to take control of the means of production currently run by men, mainly because that's ridiculous, so it's at least somewhat more complicated than "Marxism for Gender".
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    (Original post by k9markiii)
    Women currently have the choice to wear it or not men currently have a choice to wear it or not. I don't see this as a massive cause for concern.
    Unfortunately no, I didn't wear make to work, and my manager told me I must wear, because girls look nicer this was (I'm receptionist). Do I have a choice now?? I don't want to lose my job, and please don't start about court and law, in real life it does not work this way. I must look presentable, and if my manager decides I don't look presentable without make I don't have a choice anymore.
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    (Original post by lNurl)
    Unfortunately no, I didn't wear make to work, and my manager told me I must wear, because girls look nicer this was (I'm receptionist). Do I have a choice now?? I don't want to lose my job, and please don't start about court and law, in real life it does not work this way. I must look presentable, and if my manager decides I don't look presentable without make I don't have a choice anymore.
    That's different. Since you are being forced into it.

    Although I would also argue it is no different from being forced to dress a certain way. If you are a guy you may be expected to wear a tie. There are lots of bull**** rules people make other people follow.

    But ye, your manager is out of order and since you don't want to loose your job you have lost your freedom to decide.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    A girl wearing makeup to feel good about herself is no different from a guy dressing fashionably with good shoes etc. Or keeping himself in shape.
    It's different for multiple reasons. For one, both men and women are encouraged and do dress well and keep fit in equal measure. This is not at all replicated with women spending an average of £140,000 on makeup in their lifetimes.

    It's also different in the sense that dressing well does not affect your body and keeping fit is conducive to good health. Makeup cosmetics fundamentally change every aspect of a person's face solely to enhance their sexual appeal. It is inarguably objectifying; every area of the face is replaced with object versions, whether that be lipstick, concealer or fake eyelashes.

    Sure one of the reasons I do exercise is that it keeps me in better shape which improved my chances of attracting a mate. We are sexual creatures so by our very nature a lot of what we do can be underpinned with that in mind. But I do not specifically do exercise just so I can attract the opposite sex. Whilst one of the criteria of looking good is the ability to attract the opposite sex it isn't the only reason why you would try and make yourself look good. It just gives you more confidence.
    As argued above, the sole purpose of makeup is to increase a woman's sexual appeal. I'm sure there are numerous books and articles out there explaining this but it is obvious if you think...red lipstick signifies healthy blood circulation, as does blush, concealer removes any dermatological imperfections, longer eyelashes because it is seen as more feminine in our society. All of these measures are designed to increase a woman's sexual appeal. I'm not saying women always do it to attract a mate, I am saying that makeup is overwhelmingly designed and used to enhance a woman's sexual appeal; this is objectifying, and it is one of the last remaining bastions of gender inequality that is not preyed on by anyone...I suggest that this is because feminists who wear makeup want to enjoy the best of both worlds, or else are too afraid to disadvantage themselves aesthetically by fully adhering to their beliefs.

    As for it giving you more confidence, I am sure psychiatrists would have something to say in dispute of that...fundamentally and regularly changing your face, often drastically, does not seem conducive to self-acceptance and self-love, which isn't the same as developing a reliance on makeup to feel aesthetically 'acceptable to society' or even to themselves as judged by an enormous global cosmetics industry.

    But to suggest the fact we are all sexual beings, with all the consequences of being so, somehow makes gender analysis and pro gender equality movements void is just moronic.
    I cannot see any coherent meaning here.
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    (Original post by lNurl)
    Unfortunately no, I didn't wear make to work, and my manager told me I must wear, because girls look nicer this was (I'm receptionist). Do I have a choice now?? I don't want to lose my job, and please don't start about court and law, in real life it does not work this way. I must look presentable, and if my manager decides I don't look presentable without make I don't have a choice anymore.
    You should be able to get a tax rebate on this then. If it's essentially a uniform for you to wear make up. I know that going through courts and stuff is a hassle but this should not be the case.
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    i think its important that girls are putting themselves first in regards to what they wear, but at the same time if a girl wants to put on that shade of lipstick she knows her crush likes.....there isn't an issue? you can wear it for whatever reason you like, every girls is different cos every girl is different. none of these reasons are right and wrong. they're just different. no girl or guy here can speak for every girl or guy, as you can see there are loads of different opinions and everyone is right because that is why THEY wear makeup!
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    (Original post by carstairs)
    i think its important that girls are putting themselves first in regards to what they wear, but at the same time if a girl wants to put on that shade of lipstick she knows her crush likes.....there isn't an issue? you can wear it for whatever reason you like, every girls is different cos every girl is different. none of these reasons are right and wrong. they're just different. no girl or guy here can speak for every girl or guy, as you can see there are loads of different opinions and everyone is right because that is why THEY wear makeup!
    Do you feel up to answering the questions in the OP?
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    and idk about the sexual thing, my asexual friend wears makeup, a guy once asked her why and she said its because by elongating her eyes she looks like an elf from lord of the rings and she's always wanted to be an elf.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Do you feel up to answering the questions in the OP?

    i can have a go at a few....im awful at getting my point across though


    the men thing: fashion. take high heels. originally were masculine, fell out of fashion. now feminine. may tip back some day, may not. At one point men had to wear curly white/grey wigs and women natural hair. at one point both had to have big curly white/grey hair. now none wants curly grey/white hair - natural colour and smooth is 'in' . Men used to wear white powder on their faces, and at another point women did. (or maybe it was the same i cant remember) just because its out of fashion now doesn't mean it always will be, in fact its becoming more accepted for boys at least to do more feminine things (e.g. ear piercing used to be feminine, now none gives a damn) dyeing hair used to be girly. concealer on spots was taboo for men in fashion, now most men on catwalks get some contouring on their faces (my mother owned a modelling agency and is a photographer). idk my point is just because men don't now doesn't mean they never will. just like high heels (men with shapely calves where the height of hotness during the 18(?)th century lol)
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    The vast majority of women wear make-up. The vast majority of men don't. Why is that?

    Women in our society often believe that part of being a 'good woman' as such is to look pretty, but i do also think that women wear make up for their own self confidence as they like to feel good - who doesnt? men however dont tend to wear make up in my opinion in order to conform with society. Nowadays it is normal for women to wear make up and therefore society accepts it, whereas for men it is completely different. I'm not saying that men don't feel the need to have a self confidence boost by wearing make up, but with pressures on women increasing, particularly due to the media, women feel the need to wear make up, whilst men never have.

    Do female feminists on here see any awkward contradictions between wearing makeup on a regular basis and their support for an equal society where women are not objectified or their appearance made a defining feature of them as people any more than it is with men?

    I think that part of being a feminist is about acceptance of women - whether they like to wear make up or not. I can see why it might be thought that by wearing make up, there are potential contradictions to objectification of women but i do think the reason that women wear make up is deeper than simply to impress men. For me, feminists want equality for both genders, so it would be acceptable for men to wear make up, just as women do. I also think that actually feminism isn't just about creating equality, it's about acceptance of people and who they are, (this could be slightly off topic but... i feel like feminists wouldnt think badly of a woman who wants to take her husband's name in marriage and live a traditional lifestyle, but feminists want to promote choice and opportunity for women to experience something different)

    Is it a healthy practice when looked at on its own? Does it encourage a healthy body image and self-esteem?

    I think its more important to focus on how an individual feels. i dont think its right to say that make up is beneficial and harmful to a whole section of society because the truth is that its different for individuals. I feel better when i wear make up, but at the same time, i dont feel like i could never be seen bare-faced. It's about ensuring that women are comfortable with the way they look - whether thats with make up or not. sorry for long message, just my opinions!
 
 
 
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