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Badger Culling - and bTB

Poll

Should there be a badger cull?

Well it's the most controversial issue that any of us are likely to be asked at interviews, (as far as i know). So just a discussion thread for people to share ideas =)

I'm pro badger culling (but only because they are taking ages for a cattle vaccine, which isnt due til 2015), but if there was an alternative then i'd be all for it.

Seeing as there isn't, and in the 50's when there was a badger cull...it WORKED. also the fact it is costing the taxpayer just short of £100 million each year, and tens of thousand of cattle are being slaughtered or shot, personally, i think a cull would sort it.

Someone prove me wrong!

Reply 1

lesserweevil

well what I don't get is that people are quite happy to kill the cattle, or to kill the sheep, or to kill the chickens, etc - but kill a badger or a fox or God help me an albatross - and you're DOOMED FOREVER. What's the difference? :|

Reply 2

blahhh

18

There are many controversial issues you could be asked :p:

I dont know where I am with badger culling.....sometimes I'm for it since I would rather the badgers be killed humanely rather than at the hands of badger baiters....but at the same time badgers free from TB could be killed, resulting in infected badgers moving into their territory, spreading the TB even further....

Reply 3

Caraghk123

Yeah if they were going to do a cull, they'd have to be very thorough! There is also the issue of badger cubs, I believe. If they culled the mothers, the cubs could be left to starve in the badger setts. DEFRA did try to compensate for this by preventing culling from February 1st until April 30th in trials, but badger cubs are dependant on mothers milk for 3 months, and some cubs born in Dec and Jan.

I am most probably pro-culling, as pretty much all the evidence is pointing to a stark relationship of badger - cattle TB spread (Though it'd be nice to know for sure! :P) But just to let you guys know about this if you didnt already!

Reply 4

tommygunsvet

OP

anybody who voted against culling going to voice their opinions? would be nice to know the other side of the arguement in detail, help us all make justified decisions =)

Reply 5

Northern

I am an anti culler i suppose since i think culling badgers just moves them into other areas and spreads bTB further. I think the badger vaccine doesn't do much to be fair to pro cullers (only about 12% effective i read somewhere) but it does do something so.. I think at moment we should focus on a bTB vaccine for cattle and farmers should make husbandry changes to the way they run their farms to keep badgers and cattle away from each other. :yep:

Reply 6

Caraghk123

Yeah I do think if there was a cull, it'd have to be very thorough, and it would cost alot of time and money that the government don't have right now! If it wasn't done well, I agree with Northern that it could exacerbate the problem.

Urgh, it is very hard to chose a side when there are good arguments for both. XD

Reply 7

hannah_vet

8

improved biosecurity and vaccination ftw!
hilary benn ain't gonna go back on his no culling decision - it took him a year to decide!!

Reply 8

Nutterfly

2

Personally I think both culling and the badger vaccine sound unreliable, although either method would hopefully bring about some improvement in the situation, the statistics all seem somewhat dubious. During the trial badger culling in Ireland cases of bTB increased... Maybe really it is down to biosecurity and possible good luck.
The cattle farmer whose just moved in next to me is hoping to decrease the badger risk with good stock fencing, where before he's always used two strands of barbwire (his last farm wasn't in the bTB area as round here riddled with it) so maybe that will help. Roll on the cattle vaccine.

Reply 9

tommygunsvet

OP

Northern

I think at moment we should focus on a bTB vaccine for cattle and farmers should make husbandry changes to the way they run their farms to keep badgers and cattle away from each other. :yep:

yes a catte vaccine is the answer, but it won't be til 2015! and will take years to show any major changes.

I agree that biosecurity improvement is an answer, but if you could tell me how farmers are supposed to keep badgers away from outside feed troughs, and the fields? badgers live ON the farm, so how on earth are we supposed to stop badgers from coming onto the fields when the field is their home?

and hannah, we better damn sure hope the tories come into power because they were specutalting about trial culls in england.

having said all that, i can still appreciate the views of people who don't experience the effects first hand.

Reply 10

Jennybean

13

tommygunsvet

yes a catte vaccine is the answer, but it won't be til 2015! and will take years to show any major changes.

I agree that biosecurity improvement is an answer, but if you could tell me how farmers are supposed to keep badgers away from outside feed troughs, and the fields? badgers live ON the farm, so how on earth are we supposed to stop badgers from coming onto the fields when the field is their home?

and hannah, we better damn sure hope the tories come into power because they were specutalting about trial culls in england.

having said all that, i can still appreciate the views of people who don't experience the effects first hand.

Firstly, a load of badgers is not the best reason to vote for any political party.

Secondly, you're coming across as very opinionated and confident about this, which is fine, but I would say that bovine TB+role of badgers is not like other welfare debates such as the row about fox hunting, in that badgers do not represent a direct risk to livestock (they don't take and/or kill poultry and baby farm animals). While I would obviously not oppose a culling plan if it could be shown beyond reasonable doubt that badgers are the major reservoir for the disease and the main transmitting party to cattle, the evidence is tenuous at best. You'll find opinion is extremely divided amongst senior veterinary academics, and lots think that wild deer could well be a significant reservoir and transmitting species for the disease. What I'm trying to say is that it's a tricky issue, because if there wasn't this hoo-ha about TB, nobody would be bothered about culling badgers, so general consensus is that we need better evidence to link them with bovine outbreaks before we start killing them all. You're of course entitled to your opinions, and should definitely share them with any interviewing panels, but just be careful about how cocky you come across. If somebody has some new data that strongly suggests badgers are not really to blame, they will shoot you down and there'll be no way for you to come back from it. Any discussions about this will not be similar to hunting or animal testing, where you're just debating philosophies and opinions - people want facts.

Reply 11

Northern

Firstly i agree with a lot of what jennybean said it is another reason i am not pro culling at the moment.

tommygunsvet

I agree that biosecurity improvement is an answer, but if you could tell me how farmers are supposed to keep badgers away from outside feed troughs, and the fields? badgers live ON the farm, so how on earth are we supposed to stop badgers from coming onto the fields when the field is their home?

There are quite of lot of measures that can be taken actually: http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalhealth/managing-disease/bTb/reduce/environment.htm
Many apply to farmyard true but are some tips on fields also. Argument against these of course is farmers don't have time or funds to do all these things and depends on size of farm they have but there are some solutions so. :smile:

Reply 12

hannah_vet

8

Jennybean

Firstly, a load of badgers is not the best reason to vote for any political party.

Secondly, you're coming across as very opinionated and confident about this, which is fine, but I would say that bovine TB+role of badgers is not like other welfare debates such as the row about fox hunting, in that badgers do not represent a direct risk to livestock (they don't take and/or kill poultry and baby farm animals). While I would obviously not oppose a culling plan if it could be shown beyond reasonable doubt that badgers are the major reservoir for the disease and the main transmitting party to cattle, the evidence is tenuous at best. You'll find opinion is extremely divided amongst senior veterinary academics, and lots think that wild deer could well be a significant reservoir and transmitting species for the disease. What I'm trying to say is that it's a tricky issue, because if there wasn't this hoo-ha about TB, nobody would be bothered about culling badgers, so general consensus is that we need better evidence to link them with bovine outbreaks before we start killing them all. You're of course entitled to your opinions, and should definitely share them with any interviewing panels, but just be careful about how cocky you come across. If somebody has some new data that strongly suggests badgers are not really to blame, they will shoot you down and there'll be no way for you to come back from it. Any discussions about this will not be similar to hunting or animal testing, where you're just debating philosophies and opinions - people want facts.

hear hear!
although the badgers may well be spreading it about, the cattle-cattle transmission is also high and so are the other reservoirs such as deer, like you said. if we saw badgers taking down cows lol, they'd be gone in an instant but tbh they are shy creatures that tend to keep themselves to themselves.
is probably best to have an open mind on this

Reply 13

ch0c0h01ic

18

Nutterfly

During the trial badger culling in Ireland cases of bTB increased...

Was that the one which was sabotaged by anti-culling supporters (ie; they released badgers back into culled areas)?

Reply 14

xarcul

11

I don't understand the problem with vaccinating the cattle in the first place. Is this only a problem because there is not a test available to distinguish between those infect and those vaccinated?

But surely all of the uninfected cattle could be vaccinated now, ending this whole problem!!!

It evidently isn't that simply, but why not?

Reply 15

Northern

Cattle vaccine is still in development takes time to develop effective vaccines. However when the vaccine is released it should hopefully solve the problem like you said :smile:

.

Reply 16

xarcul

11

But why should a cattle vaccine differ from a badger vaccine?
Wouldn't an attenuated form of the pathogen stimulate an immune response from both or neither?

Reply 17

tommygunsvet

OP

xarcul

But why should a cattle vaccine differ from a badger vaccine?
Wouldn't an attenuated form of the pathogen stimulate an immune response from both or neither?

yeh i don't understand this, its taking them so long to sort out a cattle vaccine, and it would get rid of all these debates and worries over culling.

I know a lot of you are slating me for my pro culling views, but at the end of the day, i didn't start this thread to upset people, simply to try and get everyone to share ideas so we can all see the arguement from other points of view.

Put it this way, we have to have a TB test because all of our neighbours are shut down with TB. Its not til the end of november, but if we go down positive, it means obviously we become shut down to, and because of the method of farming we use (new zealand dairy system), it means we cannot afford to keep male calves. We have 400 calves due, and assuming theres a 50/50 of males to female, we are going to have around 200 male calves, none of which are suitable for beef and would usually be sold on. However, if we can't sell them, then its going to be a case of the cow calving, the calf is taken from its mother, realise its a male, taken round the back of the shed and then shot. Whats the difference between shooting a calf and a badger? And to think that if a badger cull (a complete cull as in the 50's) had been performed, then all of this may well not be happening.

But still, thanks to everyone for sharing your views, all valid points which i do agree with :smile:

Oh, by the way JennyBean, do you honestly think i only pick political parties based on one simple fact? My mum works for the conservatives, so i have been drilled into what their policies are millions of times! I'm not that immature.

Reply 18

Jennybean

13

tommygunsvet

Oh, by the way JennyBean, do you honestly think i only pick political parties based on one simple fact? My mum works for the conservatives, so i have been drilled into what their policies are millions of times! I'm not that immature.

Only a Tory would miss the irony in that sentence.

Reply 19

Shedlife

I'm all for vaccinations, it's worked wonders in human society (not killing badgers). However, whilst the vaccination is still under development I'm for the culling as at the end of the day, it's our food and economy that's at steak here. :wink:

Badger Culling - and bTB

Should there be a badger cull?

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