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Joining the Bar
I definately want to become a Barrister, and I have heard that the costs are large and that funding is very scarce when going through the pupilages and what not? How hard is it to get a sponsor for this time and how to students from low income family's manage it?
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my understading is that you won't be able to get sponsorship for you BVC and will have to fund it yourself. Having said that, pupils in large city chambers get paid around £10k more per year than trainees in city solicitor's firms so if you get through you should be able to pay off what you borrow.
the more serious issue is that you may not get a pupilage at all, even with a 1st from a top unversity because the number of students on the BVC is something like double the number of pupilages available so there are loads of people chasing few jobs.
Don't not do it for these reasons but equally bear in mind that you will have to be very passionate and enthusiatic about a career at the bar from the start and there is a chance you won't make it even with a good degree.
the more serious issue is that you may not get a pupilage at all, even with a 1st from a top unversity because the number of students on the BVC is something like double the number of pupilages available so there are loads of people chasing few jobs.
Don't not do it for these reasons but equally bear in mind that you will have to be very passionate and enthusiatic about a career at the bar from the start and there is a chance you won't make it even with a good degree.
Its correct that the very top sets make excellent awards to their pupils which exceed the starting salaries for City firms. See the following:
http://www.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=117287&d=11&h=24&f=23
However, as noted by Trina above, the competition to get a pupillage is even more extreme than for training contracts. The number of available pupillages in 2004 fell by 20% from 2003. There is every reason to expect that that trend may continue.
If you're absolutely sure its what you want to do, then go for it. Just be aware of the competion you will face and the potential financial cost involved.
http://www.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=117287&d=11&h=24&f=23
However, as noted by Trina above, the competition to get a pupillage is even more extreme than for training contracts. The number of available pupillages in 2004 fell by 20% from 2003. There is every reason to expect that that trend may continue.
If you're absolutely sure its what you want to do, then go for it. Just be aware of the competion you will face and the potential financial cost involved.
Might be easier to qualify as a solicitor and make the jump later. Some firms are quite keen on letting solicitors do advocacy work (Clifford Chance are an example). That way you can build up a bit of cash and experience and then make the jump. If you are dead set on going straight to the Bar, get some mooting experience in at uni and do as many mini pupillages as you can (which is easier said than done). And avoid the criminal bar, unless you want to live under a bridge without money for clothes and food.
Many City firms say they do a lot of advocacy work. In reality, few do. It is difficult, if not impossible, to justify the high cost yet relative inexperience of a solicitor-advocate. As a client, which would you choose? A junior barrister with, say, 5 years day-to-day experience before the Court at 200 quid an hour, or a solicitor advocate with a sprinkling of disputed hearings at twice the rate?
Likewise, it is extremely rare to qualify as a solicitor and then move to the bar.
Likewise, it is extremely rare to qualify as a solicitor and then move to the bar.
I'm thinking about becoming a barrister..maybe.
So, seen as you all seem to know SO much! What would my chances be based on this:-
- I've done quite a lot of work experience so far, including 3 mini pupillages and I have some work experience next easter with a barrister [apaz a well known one according to my dad] in Manchester
- I study at the University of Liverpool [OK it's not Oxbridge, but will this make it a lot harder for me?]
- I have AAAB in my A levels [not that I can see that really mattering too much]
- Lots of family connections and a opportunity to meet lots of people through my parents etc.
Meh. I still know I won't get in.
So, seen as you all seem to know SO much! What would my chances be based on this:-
- I've done quite a lot of work experience so far, including 3 mini pupillages and I have some work experience next easter with a barrister [apaz a well known one according to my dad] in Manchester
- I study at the University of Liverpool [OK it's not Oxbridge, but will this make it a lot harder for me?]
- I have AAAB in my A levels [not that I can see that really mattering too much]
- Lots of family connections and a opportunity to meet lots of people through my parents etc.
Meh. I still know I won't get in.
The work experience is helpful - it demonstrates you are committed to choosing law and, more specifically, the bar. On its own, however, it isn't enough.
Liverpool will not be as highly regarded as Oxbridge. Simple as that. You need to make sure your grades are really top drawer in order to compete with students applying for pupillages from those unis (and others).
Do you have anything which might demonstrate an ability as an advocate? Mooting/debating etc?
Your social connections are irrelevant for the purposes of applying for pupillages. Whilst such connections may be of assistance when you start practice, I can't see a set of chambers being particularly interested.
Are you targetting the London bar or Manchester/Leeds?
Liverpool will not be as highly regarded as Oxbridge. Simple as that. You need to make sure your grades are really top drawer in order to compete with students applying for pupillages from those unis (and others).
Do you have anything which might demonstrate an ability as an advocate? Mooting/debating etc?
Your social connections are irrelevant for the purposes of applying for pupillages. Whilst such connections may be of assistance when you start practice, I can't see a set of chambers being particularly interested.
Are you targetting the London bar or Manchester/Leeds?
chalks
Why on earth would anyone instruct a junior barrister who has spent their formative years in the profession as a solicitor?
Now, chalks, remember: a solicitor is not just a solicitor...
Actually, I think I'll give up the ghost before I start to sound like a Clifford Chance recruitment drive. Point 'ceded, guv'nor.
chalks
If a junior barrister's core skills were photocopying, bundle collation and research then I have no doubt that junior litigation solicitors would be admirably qualified.
Glad to see that potential applicants to the bar are keen to escape from the perception that all barristers are arrogant and self-important. with an attitude like that you're unlikely to get sent much work from solicitors and that, my friend, means no money.
Get some work experience with solicitors and find out what they ACTUALLY do. If asked at an interview for a pupillage why you don't want to be a solicitor and you come out with the type of crap that you spouted above then you certainly aren't going to get the place.
trina
Glad to see that potential applicants to the bar are keen to escape from the perception that all barristers are arrogant and self-important. with an attitude like that you're unlikely to get sent much work from solicitors and that, my friend, means no money.
Get some work experience with solicitors and find out what they ACTUALLY do. If asked at an interview for a pupillage why you don't want to be a solicitor and you come out with the type of crap that you spouted above then you certainly aren't going to get the place.
Get some work experience with solicitors and find out what they ACTUALLY do. If asked at an interview for a pupillage why you don't want to be a solicitor and you come out with the type of crap that you spouted above then you certainly aren't going to get the place.
...
chalks' TSR Member Profile
Full Name:
I
Where You Study:
No longer studying - practising solicitor for 6 years
Sex:
Male
Biography:
Now a solicitor in Australia after 6 years in London
Location:
Sydney
Country:
Australia
I
Where You Study:
No longer studying - practising solicitor for 6 years
Sex:
Male
Biography:
Now a solicitor in Australia after 6 years in London
Location:
Sydney
Country:
Australia
'Crap', indeed. Still, I'm glad to see prospective lawyers subverting the stereotype that all Oxford undergraduates are arrogant and self-important; with an attitude like that, I daresay you're unlikely to get 'much work' anywhere. Well done.
Ha!
Yes, I'm afraid I am no longer student but a solicitor specialising in litigation. I have been for the last 6 years or so, post qualification. I have seen the good side, and the bad side. The bad side is that, as a trainee litigator or newly qualified, you will become closely acquainted with the photocopier and paginator.
The good side is....ummmm....I'll get back to you on that one....
Yes, I'm afraid I am no longer student but a solicitor specialising in litigation. I have been for the last 6 years or so, post qualification. I have seen the good side, and the bad side. The bad side is that, as a trainee litigator or newly qualified, you will become closely acquainted with the photocopier and paginator.
The good side is....ummmm....I'll get back to you on that one....
chalks
Ha!
Yes, I'm afraid I am no longer student but a solicitor specialising in litigation. I have been for the last 6 years or so, post qualification. I have seen the good side, and the bad side. The bad side is that, as a trainee litigator or newly qualified, you will become closely acquainted with the photocopier and paginator.
The good side is....ummmm....I'll get back to you on that one....
Yes, I'm afraid I am no longer student but a solicitor specialising in litigation. I have been for the last 6 years or so, post qualification. I have seen the good side, and the bad side. The bad side is that, as a trainee litigator or newly qualified, you will become closely acquainted with the photocopier and paginator.
The good side is....ummmm....I'll get back to you on that one....
Ooh ooh you are everything I want to be Chalks!! One of my best friends emigrated to Australia when we were 9, and after visits, Im obsessed with the place and ultimately want to live there.
Do you know if I can qualify and practise over here (as a solicitor) until Im maybe 35, then move and practise in Aus? Is it difficult to do this? (apologies for any thread hijacking!)
Love Elle x
chalks
I wouldn't leave it as late as 35. I came across 2 years ago when I was 29. Any later than that would be too difficult because you're too senior.
It is relatively easy to requalify as an Aussie lawyer - a couple of extra exams and you're done.
Life here is seriously good!
It is relatively easy to requalify as an Aussie lawyer - a couple of extra exams and you're done.
Life here is seriously good!
Oh so you qualified in the UK?? Thats reassuring. I would pack my bags the second my training contract is over (loyalty, what loyalty??!!) but I have my other half to convince - he hasn't been to Aus yet, but he has an Australian soul, he is so laid back and happy, so I'm planning a holiday next year - I know the second he gets off the plane he'll fall in love just like I did!
chalks
Why on earth would anyone instruct a junior barrister who has spent their formative years in the profession as a solicitor?
You might like to instruct a Barrister who as trained as a solicitor for the following reasons.
(1) If they worked in the same area at the bar as they did as a solicitor they will have a far better handle on the law then a barrister of similar call. This assumes that they did not work in litigation, but actually did something substantive, ie employment or IP.
(2) The client might have worked with the Barrister in their capacity as a solicitor and liked them and their quality of their work, and thus instruct them
over a relative unknown who costs the same.
Furthermore, contrary to what Chalk says, solicitors frequently jump ship and join the bar. Maybe not in the same numbers as those entering the profession from the bvc, but given that moving to the bar post qualification is a significant economic gamble, that is to be expected. I have completed 3 mini pupilages and at each set encountered solicitors who made the jump. In fact, several barristers at those sets recommended qualifying as a solicitor before attempting to find a pupilage and later a tenancy as a decent way of moving into the profession. It is also important to note that whilst connections will not get you a job, they might well get you an interview, so use them. Whilst I cannot claim to have the years of Litigation experience boasted by Chalk, my parents are both barristers, and as such I know what the job entails and at least have a rough idea (from my parents) of what chambers look for when assessing potential pupils. Despite having a strong CV and good grades from a top univeristy, and despite wanting to end up at the Bar, I have made the decision to take a training contract at a leading city firm and switch later. Granted, its only my opinion, but I think it makes sense to at least consider following a similar route.
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