Is Islam being shown enough Respect in Britain?
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Original post by EL704
That's precisely what I am getting at - everyone is entitled to have an opinion - but you need to have the full information before you start to judge people purely on how they look or appear to you.
Misunderstanding is always a cause of conflict.... I just want people to get along goddammit!
Misunderstanding is always a cause of conflict.... I just want people to get along goddammit!
You don't want people to get a long at all. You intentionally started debating with me to start with.
Yeah, entitled to an opinion, I voice mine and accepted others. But no-one bothered to see what I was talking about and thought I was merely accepting child abuse.
Ridiculous.
Original post by CryptoidAlien
I was on the bus today and this Muslim guy was praying and quite a lot of people were laughing at him, looking at him like he was crazy. I then overheard one guy say 'this isn't a mosque' but got off at that stop so don't know if there was an argument or fight. Is Islam shown enough respect in society, if any? I kind of understnad terrorism now.
while i think there are some good people who happen to be muslim.
but i also think there is a large amount of muslims that actively dislike britain and many more inbetweeners who do not respect britain.
for example time and time again muslims have responded to surveys about free speech voting against it in the majority.
the majority of muslims want sharia law in britain which condones beating you're wife, owning slaves, polygamy, capital punishment, homophobia, rape and classes the age of consent by a girls first period.
i think women demanding to wear the niqab whilst in court for assaulting a women is disrespectful.
i think selling people alcohol for years and then collectively refusing to sell alcohol and only refusing to sell alcohol in non muslim owned stores is disrespectful.
i think marching in the street screaming "england go to hell, we will take their women as war booty" is disrespectful.
i think forcing people to convert to islam via the threat of violence is disrespectful.
i think religiously bound political terrorism is disrespectful.
i think trying to force the secular to become religious is disrespectful.
i think when girls get groomed and raped by men and you blame it on the girls. thats disrespectful.
i think praying at a bus stop is a bit weird and is bound to get attention.
i think also given the tension between muslims pretty much everyone else in this country you might be inclined to keep your head down a bit at the risk of receiving such treatment.
Original post by xmertic
You don't want people to get a long at all. You intentionally started debating with me to start with.
Yeah, entitled to an opinion, I voice mine and accepted others. But no-one bothered to see what I was talking about and thought I was merely accepting child abuse.
Ridiculous.
Yeah, entitled to an opinion, I voice mine and accepted others. But no-one bothered to see what I was talking about and thought I was merely accepting child abuse.
Ridiculous.
Seriously? Debate is the way to discuss differences and reach inevitable conclusions - debate is a way to discuss both sides of a situation to see differing opinions and analyse the fact, to use it as a supporting argument to your opinion and why you have that opinion with evidentiary support.
I never once mentioned child abuse... I want more people to be aware of different cultures to be more accepting, instead of blindly following propaganda... It was nice to see the reasons behind why some people, yourself included, fear cultures they don't know and it's by discussion that these issues can be addressed.
I DO want people to get along. ALL PEOPLE! There is too much hate in the world, if people were more willing to listen and debate, then they would hear the sides for each argument, and would be able to come to a rational conclusion, where they may still disagree or they may agree to a certain extent. It's the fact that religion and politics are often labelled as taboo subjects that help generate fear - there are some who worry if thy will be politically correct, or may offend or whatever - but people need to express how they feel, and then be informed if the fear is based on lack of information. If there were more discussions and debate, I think there would be less animosity between people from different ethnic backgrounds.
Debate is important, and so is being willing to hear both sides, which unfortunately, is not always what happens, a true debate doesn't occur until you look at every angle.
Original post by EL704
Seriously? Debate is the way to discuss differences and reach inevitable conclusions - debate is a way to discuss both sides of a situation to see differing opinions and analyse the fact, to use it as a supporting argument to your opinion and why you have that opinion with evidentiary support.
I never once mentioned child abuse... I want more people to be aware of different cultures to be more accepting, instead of blindly following propaganda... It was nice to see the reasons behind why some people, yourself included, fear cultures they don't know and it's by discussion that these issues can be addressed.
I DO want people to get along. ALL PEOPLE! There is too much hate in the world, if people were more willing to listen and debate, then they would hear the sides for each argument, and would be able to come to a rational conclusion, where they may still disagree or they may agree to a certain extent. It's the fact that religion and politics are often labelled as taboo subjects that help generate fear - there are some who worry if thy will be politically correct, or may offend or whatever - but people need to express how they feel, and then be informed if the fear is based on lack of information. If there were more discussions and debate, I think there would be less animosity between people from different ethnic backgrounds.
Debate is important, and so is being willing to hear both sides, which unfortunately, is not always what happens, a true debate doesn't occur until you look at every angle.
I never once mentioned child abuse... I want more people to be aware of different cultures to be more accepting, instead of blindly following propaganda... It was nice to see the reasons behind why some people, yourself included, fear cultures they don't know and it's by discussion that these issues can be addressed.
I DO want people to get along. ALL PEOPLE! There is too much hate in the world, if people were more willing to listen and debate, then they would hear the sides for each argument, and would be able to come to a rational conclusion, where they may still disagree or they may agree to a certain extent. It's the fact that religion and politics are often labelled as taboo subjects that help generate fear - there are some who worry if thy will be politically correct, or may offend or whatever - but people need to express how they feel, and then be informed if the fear is based on lack of information. If there were more discussions and debate, I think there would be less animosity between people from different ethnic backgrounds.
Debate is important, and so is being willing to hear both sides, which unfortunately, is not always what happens, a true debate doesn't occur until you look at every angle.
I can't be arsed reading all that, I'm busy killing Nazi's. If you want people to get along, either reply with something we can talk about. Or stop altogether. I'm done with this thread
Original post by Mick.w
while i think there are some good people who happen to be muslim.
but i also think there is a large amount of muslims that actively dislike britain and many more inbetweeners who do not respect britain.
for example time and time again muslims have responded to surveys about free speech voting against it in the majority.
the majority of muslims want sharia law in britain which condones beating you're wife, owning slaves, polygamy, capital punishment, homophobia, rape and classes the age of consent by a girls first period.
i think women demanding to wear the niqab whilst in court for assaulting a women is disrespectful.
i think selling people alcohol for years and then collectively refusing to sell alcohol and only refusing to sell alcohol in non muslim owned stores is disrespectful.
i think marching in the street screaming "england go to hell, we will take their women as war booty" is disrespectful.
i think forcing people to convert to islam via the threat of violence is disrespectful.
i think religiously bound political terrorism is disrespectful.
i think trying to force the secular to become religious is disrespectful.
i think when girls get groomed and raped by men and you blame it on the girls. thats disrespectful.
i think praying at a bus stop is a bit weird and is bound to get attention.
i think also given the tension between muslims pretty much everyone else in this country you might be inclined to keep your head down a bit at the risk of receiving such treatment.
but i also think there is a large amount of muslims that actively dislike britain and many more inbetweeners who do not respect britain.
for example time and time again muslims have responded to surveys about free speech voting against it in the majority.
the majority of muslims want sharia law in britain which condones beating you're wife, owning slaves, polygamy, capital punishment, homophobia, rape and classes the age of consent by a girls first period.
i think women demanding to wear the niqab whilst in court for assaulting a women is disrespectful.
i think selling people alcohol for years and then collectively refusing to sell alcohol and only refusing to sell alcohol in non muslim owned stores is disrespectful.
i think marching in the street screaming "england go to hell, we will take their women as war booty" is disrespectful.
i think forcing people to convert to islam via the threat of violence is disrespectful.
i think religiously bound political terrorism is disrespectful.
i think trying to force the secular to become religious is disrespectful.
i think when girls get groomed and raped by men and you blame it on the girls. thats disrespectful.
i think praying at a bus stop is a bit weird and is bound to get attention.
i think also given the tension between muslims pretty much everyone else in this country you might be inclined to keep your head down a bit at the risk of receiving such treatment.
I agree with not allowing Sharia law - again a particular subset of muslim that wishes this, not all - because then you would have to accept other religious law - and there's a lot of equally abusive things in the bible that would then be permitted if they did - notably stoning of those of other religions.... even though in the UK nowadays we tend to take it with a pinch of salt rather than literally word for word - there are some extremist muslims who take the Qu'ran word for word... and yes would probably insist on some of the more abusive - but again there is homophobia in the bible, there is 'advisement' of other very similar things that you have mentioned - it is just we have agreed that it is outdated, and unsuitable - the church has even agreed with some of it, thank goodness!
Yes the woman who was on trial, if there was sufficient evidence, was not a true muslim if she could assault someone else. In cases of legal issues I would say that peoples faces should be on show - regardless of religion, considering it is a weak defense to use your religion in that way, as she WAS using it to hide from a crime that was committed.
And there are many who dislike Britain... not just muslim....
Original post by xmertic
I can't be arsed reading all that, I'm busy killing Nazi's. If you want people to get along, either reply with something we can talk about. Or stop altogether. I'm done with this thread
Exhibit A - Can't be arsed.... the defense of those that haven't got the ability to debate intellectually.
I was actually agreeing with you, if you can be arsed with that...
But that's fine too.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by EL704
Exhibit A - Can't be arsed.... the defense of those that haven't got the ability to debate intellectually.
I was actually agreeing with you, if you can be arsed with that...
But that's fine too.
I was actually agreeing with you, if you can be arsed with that...
But that's fine too.
I'm busy playing Wolfenstein you fool. I'll debate later if it's so important to you.
I'm not saying you weren't agreeing, I just didn't want to read a lengthy message when I;m playing a game...
I'm glad you agree and I appreciate it
Original post by Mick.w
while i think there are some good people who happen to be muslim.
but i also think there is a large amount of muslims that actively dislike britain and many more inbetweeners who do not respect britain.
for example time and time again muslims have responded to surveys about free speech voting against it in the majority.
the majority of muslims want sharia law in britain which condones beating you're wife, owning slaves, polygamy, capital punishment, homophobia, rape and classes the age of consent by a girls first period.
i think women demanding to wear the niqab whilst in court for assaulting a women is disrespectful.
i think selling people alcohol for years and then collectively refusing to sell alcohol and only refusing to sell alcohol in non muslim owned stores is disrespectful.
i think marching in the street screaming "england go to hell, we will take their women as war booty" is disrespectful.
i think forcing people to convert to islam via the threat of violence is disrespectful.
i think religiously bound political terrorism is disrespectful.
i think trying to force the secular to become religious is disrespectful.
i think when girls get groomed and raped by men and you blame it on the girls. thats disrespectful.
i think praying at a bus stop is a bit weird and is bound to get attention.
i think also given the tension between muslims pretty much everyone else in this country you might be inclined to keep your head down a bit at the risk of receiving such treatment.
but i also think there is a large amount of muslims that actively dislike britain and many more inbetweeners who do not respect britain.
for example time and time again muslims have responded to surveys about free speech voting against it in the majority.
the majority of muslims want sharia law in britain which condones beating you're wife, owning slaves, polygamy, capital punishment, homophobia, rape and classes the age of consent by a girls first period.
i think women demanding to wear the niqab whilst in court for assaulting a women is disrespectful.
i think selling people alcohol for years and then collectively refusing to sell alcohol and only refusing to sell alcohol in non muslim owned stores is disrespectful.
i think marching in the street screaming "england go to hell, we will take their women as war booty" is disrespectful.
i think forcing people to convert to islam via the threat of violence is disrespectful.
i think religiously bound political terrorism is disrespectful.
i think trying to force the secular to become religious is disrespectful.
i think when girls get groomed and raped by men and you blame it on the girls. thats disrespectful.
i think praying at a bus stop is a bit weird and is bound to get attention.
i think also given the tension between muslims pretty much everyone else in this country you might be inclined to keep your head down a bit at the risk of receiving such treatment.
Okay first off thank you for identifying that some muslims are 'good' (although I would argue that majority are good its just the extreme ones that are the most vocal.)
Now on to your points:
1) When you say muslims vote against free speech this is only in the circumstances where people start ridiculing religions etc in the name of 'free speech'...(e.g the innocence of muslims film) which I would think is a reasonable opinion as free speech must have some guidelines.
2) Majority of muslims DO NOT want sharia law I think its just a whole lot of hype initiated by the edl and british defence league. And 'sharia law' is widely misunderstood thanks to the media... The sharia law does not allow domestic abuse. And slaves are not allowed either only servants who must be treated like a family member rather than property. The list goes on but I cant be bothered to refute each one but what I would say is please ask a Muslim or someone WITH KNOWLEDGE about these laws before you spread ignorance.
3) The woman demanding to wear the niqab should have the freedom to do so I dont see how her face needs to be shown...
4) If the store is owned by a non-muslim then a muslim worker should be able to negotiate their job role BEFORE they accept the job as Im sure there are many workers available to sell alcohol.
5) As for the marching and chanting, this is not islam this is crazy ignorant extremists who need to get educated about the beauty of islam and its tolerance of other nations and respect for women.
6) Islam teaches 'there is no compulsion in religion' so again this is not islam and these people need to be reported.
7) All types of terrorism are bad, but sometimes we need to look behind the headlines as to why so many of these terrorists are around...( Iraq war, Israel stealing palestine land, us drone strikes across the muslim world, the list goes on) BUT I CONDEMN ALL ACTS OF TERRORISM DONT GET ME WRONG
8)No one is forcing the secular to be religious! I would argue the secular are causing the religious to become more secular...
9) Grooming gangs are filthy and are not related to islam, Muslim men are not even allowed to touch the hand of an unrelated woman let alone rape her. While I dont blame the girls, I would encourage them to dress more modestly so as to not be looked at as they walk down the street as a piece of flesh but a dignified human being....But thats just my advice Im not forcing it upon anyone
10) Praying on the bus was quite a rare act...but at the same time if people can go all out snogging without ridicule on the bus why would a silent prayer be a problem? (the muslim prayer is silent when not in congregation)
To end off I don't appreciate your last comment...why should we keep our heads down and shy away from society because of propaganda and intolerant people? I would argue that muslims should speak out for the truth and eradicate all these false perceptions by educated narrative!
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Phoebe Buffay
Does it need to be shown respect..?
yes it does you racist rich girl
Original post by Phoebe Buffay
I'll be honest, I can see why it may be unnerving to have somebody break into prayer on the bus. If I had been there, I would have thought I was facing imminent death. It's an odd place to pray.
That's true. Given certain groups of people from Islam I would of felt the same, like the guy was praying before he commits suicide with the rest of the bus type thing?
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Original post by Pussy Galore
yes it does you racist rich girl
It doesn't need to be shown respect as such. I don't agree with the laughing and stuff which wasn't necessary.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by samcharles
Okay first off thank you for identifying that some muslims are 'good' (although I would argue that majority are good its just the extreme ones that are the most vocal.)
Now on to your points:
1) When you say muslims vote against free speech this is only in the circumstances where people start ridiculing religions etc in the name of 'free speech'...(e.g the innocence of muslims film) which I would think is a reasonable opinion as free speech must have some guidelines.
2) Majority of muslims DO NOT want sharia law I think its just a whole lot of hype initiated by the edl and british defence league. And 'sharia law' is widely misunderstood thanks to the media... The sharia law does not allow domestic abuse. And slaves are not allowed either only servants who must be treated like a family member rather than property. The list goes on but I cant be bothered to refute each one but what I would say is please ask a Muslim or someone WITH KNOWLEDGE about these laws before you spread ignorance.
3) The woman demanding to wear the niqab should have the freedom to do so I dont see how her face needs to be shown...
4) If the store is owned by a non-muslim then a muslim worker should be able to negotiate their job role BEFORE they accept the job as Im sure there are many workers available to sell alcohol.
5) As for the marching and chanting, this is not islam this is crazy ignorant extremists who need to get educated about the beauty of islam and its tolerance of other nations and respect for women.
6) Islam teaches 'there is no compulsion in religion' so again this is not islam and these people need to be reported.
7) All types of terrorism are bad, but sometimes we need to look behind the headlines as to why so many of these terrorists are around...( Iraq war, Israel stealing palestine land, us drone strikes across the muslim world, the list goes on) BUT I CONDEMN ALL ACTS OF TERRORISM DONT GET ME WRONG
8)No one is forcing the secular to be religious! I would argue the secular are causing the religious to become more secular...
9) Grooming gangs are filthy and are not related to islam, Muslim men are not even allowed to touch the hand of an unrelated woman let alone rape her. While I dont blame the girls, I would encourage them to dress more modestly so as to not be looked at as they walk down the street as a piece of flesh but a dignified human being....But thats just my advice Im not forcing it upon anyone
10) Praying on the bus was quite a rare act...but at the same time if people can go all out snogging without ridicule on the bus why would a silent prayer be a problem? (the muslim prayer is silent when not in congregation)
To end off I don't appreciate your last comment...why should we keep our heads down and shy away from society because of propaganda and racist people? I would argue that muslims should speak out for the truth and eradicate all these false perceptions by educated narrative!
Now on to your points:
1) When you say muslims vote against free speech this is only in the circumstances where people start ridiculing religions etc in the name of 'free speech'...(e.g the innocence of muslims film) which I would think is a reasonable opinion as free speech must have some guidelines.
2) Majority of muslims DO NOT want sharia law I think its just a whole lot of hype initiated by the edl and british defence league. And 'sharia law' is widely misunderstood thanks to the media... The sharia law does not allow domestic abuse. And slaves are not allowed either only servants who must be treated like a family member rather than property. The list goes on but I cant be bothered to refute each one but what I would say is please ask a Muslim or someone WITH KNOWLEDGE about these laws before you spread ignorance.
3) The woman demanding to wear the niqab should have the freedom to do so I dont see how her face needs to be shown...
4) If the store is owned by a non-muslim then a muslim worker should be able to negotiate their job role BEFORE they accept the job as Im sure there are many workers available to sell alcohol.
5) As for the marching and chanting, this is not islam this is crazy ignorant extremists who need to get educated about the beauty of islam and its tolerance of other nations and respect for women.
6) Islam teaches 'there is no compulsion in religion' so again this is not islam and these people need to be reported.
7) All types of terrorism are bad, but sometimes we need to look behind the headlines as to why so many of these terrorists are around...( Iraq war, Israel stealing palestine land, us drone strikes across the muslim world, the list goes on) BUT I CONDEMN ALL ACTS OF TERRORISM DONT GET ME WRONG
8)No one is forcing the secular to be religious! I would argue the secular are causing the religious to become more secular...
9) Grooming gangs are filthy and are not related to islam, Muslim men are not even allowed to touch the hand of an unrelated woman let alone rape her. While I dont blame the girls, I would encourage them to dress more modestly so as to not be looked at as they walk down the street as a piece of flesh but a dignified human being....But thats just my advice Im not forcing it upon anyone
10) Praying on the bus was quite a rare act...but at the same time if people can go all out snogging without ridicule on the bus why would a silent prayer be a problem? (the muslim prayer is silent when not in congregation)
To end off I don't appreciate your last comment...why should we keep our heads down and shy away from society because of propaganda and racist people? I would argue that muslims should speak out for the truth and eradicate all these false perceptions by educated narrative!
I don't have the time to tell you how silly your points were, but the one thing I will say is: Islam is not a race, it is a religion, therefore it is not racism.
Original post by Pussy Galore
yes it does you racist rich girl
Not racist; Islam is not a race. Not Rich. I'm a student, and my family are not wealthy.
Next
Original post by EatAndRevise
I don't have the time to tell you how silly your points were, but the one thing I will say is: Islam is not a race, it is a religion, therefore it is not racism.
There I changed it to 'intolerant' happy? #totallymissedthepoint
islam doesn't deserve respect for a logical population of civilised/ethical human beings
but that's just my view
but that's just my view
ah i do enjoy a healthy debate.
allow me to interject
peaceful people who incubate a violent ideology. the ideology condones violence.
saying islam is a religion of peace in itself is a lie. lying about the true nature of islam are practices known as kitman and taqiyya.
a neo nazi comparison would make sense if every white white person believed in the teachings of hitler and thought mein kampf
statistically yes.
however there has been events like this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2544464/BREAKING-NEWS-Student-21-guilty-throwing-acid-face-friend-disguised-Muslim-veil.html
but there are other issues. not just security. but just basic communication.
we live in a society where it is ok for women and men who are not married or related to talk. in islamic practice these things are not allowed. generally women who wear the mask are not allowed to talk to men. depending on how strictly they follow it. however there are increasingly young muslim women who are wearing the mask not so much for their religion but as a statement of defiance. kinda like the mentality of the muslims who want to make a statement of defiance by not selling alcohol for non muslim employers.
dr taj hargey - muslim educational centre oxford - his views on the niqab
i think having a bit of netting lifted from your face on your wedding is a far cry away from being permissibly beaten by your husband for not obeying his commands.
plus i think finger pointing like that saying "you do this" "well YOU do THAT" is a bit of a childish back and forth and leads nowhere.
in terms of law? yes i think the veil should be allowed. however should people be expected to accept it? no. if staff don't want to serve you, if people make fun of you, if people refuse to except you because you've decided to wear a mask then thats you're own issue.
don't go wearing it and then get upset about people having issue with it. you know very well why people have issue with it.
that is unless you are being forced to wear it. but muslims all vehemently deny that this happens and that its an extreme minority.
conservative dress? you're comparing the difference between long sleeve vs short sleeve to wearing a mask? but hang on lets rewind...
you said
but hang on... isn't he just being "conservative" since you know... its basically the same as wearing a long sleeve top.
or is the problem with non muslims covering their face?
or men?
hang on... let me just confirm. are you comparing the history of violence of both men and women from the catholic church. to the history of female members only of a group that makes less than 5% of the population and the majority of whom arrived in this country less the last 60 years ago.
an unfair comparison i fear...
picking on christians again i see. way to take the high ground.
i have no religious loyalties. but i do find it ironic that when you're trying to argue against people lashing out at muslims you keep lashing out at another religious group as your defensive response.
muslims, jews and christians are all actually supposed to wear a scarf to cover their hair. muslims call it a hijab of course. hence why nuns wear one (notice they don't wear masks) and why many orthodox jewish women wear one (notice they too don't wear masks)
wearing a mask is not very inviting.
especially the fact that the styling is that of a ninja. the people that invented the burkha didnt make it in all black it was a blue colour which is not as scary. but still quite ghostly due to the way it is shaped.
arguably if modesty the cause then maybe they could just wear a face covering and outfit that hides their figure and curve that is less threatening and uncomfortable for people then maybe they could just wear stuff like this
I call it... the Muezza Burkha
allow me to interject
Original post by EL704
It's the same level of blind rejection as blind acceptance - the only difference is that because you disagree with the religious aspect, due to a minority of people who have abused that religion, creating fear and hatred of a peaceful people.
peaceful people who incubate a violent ideology. the ideology condones violence.
Original post by EL704
Violence is abhorred by muslims - only the extremists would use it - such as neo nazis would use it, there are violent people of all races and religions.
Violence is abhorred by muslims - only the extremists would use it - such as neo nazis would use it, there are violent people of all races and religions.
saying islam is a religion of peace in itself is a lie. lying about the true nature of islam are practices known as kitman and taqiyya.
a neo nazi comparison would make sense if every white white person believed in the teachings of hitler and thought mein kampf
Original post by EL704
No, I would not demand someone removes a part of their religious dress to satisfy ignorant phobias of 'what if' mentality. I'm more likely to be attacked - statistically - by the white kid in a trackie from a council estate who smokes, drinks and takes drugs - who would be covering his face ONLY to hide his identity.
No, I would not demand someone removes a part of their religious dress to satisfy ignorant phobias of 'what if' mentality. I'm more likely to be attacked - statistically - by the white kid in a trackie from a council estate who smokes, drinks and takes drugs - who would be covering his face ONLY to hide his identity.
statistically yes.
however there has been events like this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2544464/BREAKING-NEWS-Student-21-guilty-throwing-acid-face-friend-disguised-Muslim-veil.html
but there are other issues. not just security. but just basic communication.
Original post by EL704
The niqaab is not a way of 'hiding from committing crime' - it is used by a subset within Sunni muslims (hanafi, shafi and hanbali) - specifically in front of non muslims - long story short, it is a whole lot easier than trying to educate non muslims to understand how eye contact and looking at women you are not married to is taken completely differently in muslim countries.
The niqaab is not a way of 'hiding from committing crime' - it is used by a subset within Sunni muslims (hanafi, shafi and hanbali) - specifically in front of non muslims - long story short, it is a whole lot easier than trying to educate non muslims to understand how eye contact and looking at women you are not married to is taken completely differently in muslim countries.
we live in a society where it is ok for women and men who are not married or related to talk. in islamic practice these things are not allowed. generally women who wear the mask are not allowed to talk to men. depending on how strictly they follow it. however there are increasingly young muslim women who are wearing the mask not so much for their religion but as a statement of defiance. kinda like the mentality of the muslims who want to make a statement of defiance by not selling alcohol for non muslim employers.
dr taj hargey - muslim educational centre oxford - his views on the niqab
Original post by EL704
If you want to ban a religious veil, ban the one at weddings because they are purely sexist and have no religious function whatsoever as they symbolise the patriarchy of the woman being handed over as property to her husband and he 'unwraps' his new gift...
If you want to ban a religious veil, ban the one at weddings because they are purely sexist and have no religious function whatsoever as they symbolise the patriarchy of the woman being handed over as property to her husband and he 'unwraps' his new gift...
i think having a bit of netting lifted from your face on your wedding is a far cry away from being permissibly beaten by your husband for not obeying his commands.
plus i think finger pointing like that saying "you do this" "well YOU do THAT" is a bit of a childish back and forth and leads nowhere.
Original post by EL704
The niqaab should be allowed - providing there is cooperation for security measures which all real muslims actually are more than happy to, providing they are seen by another woman - which is not an unreasonable request.
The niqaab should be allowed - providing there is cooperation for security measures which all real muslims actually are more than happy to, providing they are seen by another woman - which is not an unreasonable request.
in terms of law? yes i think the veil should be allowed. however should people be expected to accept it? no. if staff don't want to serve you, if people make fun of you, if people refuse to except you because you've decided to wear a mask then thats you're own issue.
don't go wearing it and then get upset about people having issue with it. you know very well why people have issue with it.
that is unless you are being forced to wear it. but muslims all vehemently deny that this happens and that its an extreme minority.
Original post by EL704
The veil shows conservative dress - as much as uber christians will wear long skirts and long sleeved clothes...
The veil shows conservative dress - as much as uber christians will wear long skirts and long sleeved clothes...
conservative dress? you're comparing the difference between long sleeve vs short sleeve to wearing a mask? but hang on lets rewind...
you said
Original post by EL704
I'm more likely to be attacked - statistically - by the white kid in a trackie from a council estate who smokes, drinks and takes drugs - who would be covering his face ONLY to hide his identity.
I'm more likely to be attacked - statistically - by the white kid in a trackie from a council estate who smokes, drinks and takes drugs - who would be covering his face ONLY to hide his identity.
but hang on... isn't he just being "conservative" since you know... its basically the same as wearing a long sleeve top.
or is the problem with non muslims covering their face?
or men?
Original post by EL704
thinking about it.... ban nuns and monks and priests clothes too.... considering more priests and vicars have been guilty of violent crime than any muslim woman in the uk.
thinking about it.... ban nuns and monks and priests clothes too.... considering more priests and vicars have been guilty of violent crime than any muslim woman in the uk.
hang on... let me just confirm. are you comparing the history of violence of both men and women from the catholic church. to the history of female members only of a group that makes less than 5% of the population and the majority of whom arrived in this country less the last 60 years ago.
an unfair comparison i fear...
picking on christians again i see. way to take the high ground.
i have no religious loyalties. but i do find it ironic that when you're trying to argue against people lashing out at muslims you keep lashing out at another religious group as your defensive response.
muslims, jews and christians are all actually supposed to wear a scarf to cover their hair. muslims call it a hijab of course. hence why nuns wear one (notice they don't wear masks) and why many orthodox jewish women wear one (notice they too don't wear masks)
wearing a mask is not very inviting.
especially the fact that the styling is that of a ninja. the people that invented the burkha didnt make it in all black it was a blue colour which is not as scary. but still quite ghostly due to the way it is shaped.
arguably if modesty the cause then maybe they could just wear a face covering and outfit that hides their figure and curve that is less threatening and uncomfortable for people then maybe they could just wear stuff like this
I call it... the Muezza Burkha
Original post by EL704
I agree with not allowing Sharia law - again a particular subset of muslim that wishes this, not all - because then you would have to accept other religious law - and there's a lot of equally abusive things in the bible that would then be permitted if they did - notably stoning of those of other religions.... even though in the UK nowadays we tend to take it with a pinch of salt rather than literally word for word - there are some extremist muslims who take the Qu'ran word for word... and yes would probably insist on some of the more abusive - but again there is homophobia in the bible, there is 'advisement' of other very similar things that you have mentioned - it is just we have agreed that it is outdated, and unsuitable - the church has even agreed with some of it, thank goodness!
Yes the woman who was on trial, if there was sufficient evidence, was not a true muslim if she could assault someone else. In cases of legal issues I would say that peoples faces should be on show - regardless of religion, considering it is a weak defense to use your religion in that way, as she WAS using it to hide from a crime that was committed.
And there are many who dislike Britain... not just muslim....
Yes the woman who was on trial, if there was sufficient evidence, was not a true muslim if she could assault someone else. In cases of legal issues I would say that peoples faces should be on show - regardless of religion, considering it is a weak defense to use your religion in that way, as she WAS using it to hide from a crime that was committed.
And there are many who dislike Britain... not just muslim....
yes but those other groups are not a problem. to put it bluntly. muslims as a collective group, as a politically represented body and as an activist representation are the only group in the UK that has so much controversy and issues surrounding them.
there are very valid reasons why people are not having a go at sick chinese people with colds who wear surgical masks on the underground. or having an issue with hasidic jews for dressing like an 18th century russian.
she was not a true muslim? do you know who she hit? do you know why she hit them?
The Quran 8:12
"I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."
that's just one of MANY (and oh boy is there many) quotes permitting violence against non muslims.
i won't spam you with more. but if you'd like them i have them lined up.
so i wouldn't jump the gun saying they are not a true muslim. you don't know enough to make that call. although maybe you do know the details and if so could you tell me how it was haram?
also which specific subset of muslims are you talking about that don't want sharia law? cause so far they all seem to want to. are you saying sunnis, the largest muslims group in the uk, don't want sharia law?
why would we have to except all religious law? that's not what muslims want. they want THEIR law.
whens the last time you heard christians stoning people to death?
also most of that horror story stuff is from the old testament is jewish stuff meant for jews.
notice how christians also don't circumcise or cut their hair like jews.
theres a reason for this. the bible illustrates laws that are meant for the jews and then laws that are meant for all including non jews.
for example
[A Pharisee lawyer] asked him a question, to test him. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." (Matt. 22:34-40)
thats an example. i won't bore you with more. but this is how catholics take the bible.
outside of catholics other post reformation christians basically just pick and choose and make stuff up as they go a long.
(edited 9 years ago)
Doesn't really deserve respect.
Original post by samcharles
Okay first off thank you for identifying that some muslims are 'good' (although I would argue that majority are good its just the extreme ones that are the most vocal.)
well i said some are genuinely good. but many are merely blank pavements for the road of extremism. moderate muslims do not combat extremism. they look the other way and provide a fertile environment for it to grow in.
Original post by samcharles
Now on to your points:
1) When you say muslims vote against free speech this is only in the circumstances where people start ridiculing religions etc in the name of 'free speech'...(e.g the innocence of muslims film) which I would think is a reasonable opinion as free speech must have some guidelines.
Now on to your points:
1) When you say muslims vote against free speech this is only in the circumstances where people start ridiculing religions etc in the name of 'free speech'...(e.g the innocence of muslims film) which I would think is a reasonable opinion as free speech must have some guidelines.
right so if i was to say that the prophet muhammad was a pedophile would you think i shouldn't be allowed to say that? who gets to decide where the line is drawn.
Original post by samcharles
2) Majority of muslims DO NOT want sharia law I think its just a whole lot of hype initiated by the edl and british defence league. And 'sharia law' is widely misunderstood thanks to the media...
2) Majority of muslims DO NOT want sharia law I think its just a whole lot of hype initiated by the edl and british defence league. And 'sharia law' is widely misunderstood thanks to the media...
that's just not true. even in Stacey Dooley's "My Hometown Fanatics" cuddly "see muslims ain't all that bad" type of programme the moderate muslim lad is saying he wants sharia law that all muslims want sharia and that sharia law is already here. theres been enough campaigning now that muslims actually have sharia courts here. they didnt get that far due to being a minority.
simply you are just not telling the truth.
Original post by samcharles
The sharia law does not allow domestic abuse.
The sharia law does not allow domestic abuse.
sharia is debated upon till the cows come home. however there is this quote from the koran.
Sura 4:34
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.
Original post by samcharles
And slaves are not allowed either only servants who must be treated like a family member rather than property. The list goes on but I cant be bothered to refute each one but what I would say is please ask a Muslim or someone WITH KNOWLEDGE about these laws before you spread ignorance.
And slaves are not allowed either only servants who must be treated like a family member rather than property. The list goes on but I cant be bothered to refute each one but what I would say is please ask a Muslim or someone WITH KNOWLEDGE about these laws before you spread ignorance.
asking muslims about islam is basically pointless. if its bad stuff then its truth. if its good stuff then its kitman and taqiyya.
with things like kitman and taqiyya its pretty difficult to trust what muslims have to say about their religion.
i have knowledge but you are quite simply lying and trying to take advantage of the fact that you think I won't know verses of the koran or that i won't no certain details.
so why did the prophet muhammad have slaves if slavery was not allowed? they treated slaves family members? do you castrate castrate your family members?
not only that but the islamic slave trade was larger than the transatlantic and longer lasting. like when zanzibar had essentially a slave revolt in 1964 killing all the arabs.
heres a little time line
1936: Britain abolishes slavery in Northern Nigeria.
1952: Qatar abolishes slavery.
1960: Niger abolishes slavery.
1962: Saudi Arabia abolishes slavery.
1962: Yemen abolishes slavery.
1964: The United Arab Emirates abolishes slavery.
1970: Oman abolishes slavery.
1981: Mauritania abolishes slavery.
2003: Niger makes slavery a crime.
2007: Mauritania makes slavery a crime.
oh look at that. all muslim.
funny to note how the slave the trade only exists in the islamic world still. slaves from indonesia and africa being bought by arab and south asian muslims. nice.
yes there are practices akin to slavery practiced by the chinese mafia, russian mafia, although muslim albanians are apparently the key players in european sex trafficking.
but the only place you see it fully alive and naked in all its glory is the islamic world.
Original post by samcharles
3) The woman demanding to wear the niqab should have the freedom to do so I dont see how her face needs to be shown...
3) The woman demanding to wear the niqab should have the freedom to do so I dont see how her face needs to be shown...
for a jury to see the accused face during questioning as to accurately asses truth and lies.
not only that but its disrespectful to the victim. its like they are hiding form justice.
its not required for the religion. so its essentially a fashion statement. she manipulated the judges lack of knowledge of islam by making out like wearing the mask was part of the religion. it is not. she lied. she manipulated the courts. she was defiant against the court of law. and the court of law bent the knee to her decision. the criminals decision. shocking.
such is british politeness to be taken advantage of.
Original post by samcharles
4) If the store is owned by a non-muslim then a muslim worker should be able to negotiate their job role BEFORE they accept the job as Im sure there are many workers available to sell alcohol.
4) If the store is owned by a non-muslim then a muslim worker should be able to negotiate their job role BEFORE they accept the job as Im sure there are many workers available to sell alcohol.
yes i agree. however it is stupid to apply for a job as a cashier in a supermarket that you know sells alcohol. they also did not discuss their religious agenda prior. so there u go.
Original post by samcharles
5) As for the marching and chanting, this is not islam this is crazy ignorant extremists who need to get educated about the beauty of islam and its tolerance of other nations and respect for women.
5) As for the marching and chanting, this is not islam this is crazy ignorant extremists who need to get educated about the beauty of islam and its tolerance of other nations and respect for women.
islam is a nation? you mean islams respect for africa? with slavery and ethnic cleansing of blacks out of north africa? the same islamic world where black women are at risk of being kidnapped into slavery in the middle east and the islamic world in general. also look at burma, where the muslims there have taken liberties to the point where they've EVEN MADE BUDDHISTS VIOLENT.
yea muslims really showed respect to the Buddhas of Bamiyan. AMAZING STATUES destroyed in the name of islam. gold star. another great victory for islam.
Original post by samcharles
6) Islam teaches 'there is no compulsion in religion' so again this is not islam and these people need to be reported.
6) Islam teaches 'there is no compulsion in religion' so again this is not islam and these people need to be reported.
yes your talking about verse 2:256 but in the following verse 2:257 it says the non believers will burn in hell forever.
there is also stuff like this
2:191
"And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing."
9:29
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."
two examples of how islam instructs you to attack non believers.
also Sura 4:65 is being broken if the two above are not obeyed.
Original post by samcharles
7) All types of terrorism are bad, but sometimes we need to look behind the headlines as to why so many of these terrorists are around...( Iraq war, Israel stealing palestine land, us drone strikes across the muslim world, the list goes on) BUT I CONDEMN ALL ACTS OF TERRORISM DONT GET ME WRONG
7) All types of terrorism are bad, but sometimes we need to look behind the headlines as to why so many of these terrorists are around...( Iraq war, Israel stealing palestine land, us drone strikes across the muslim world, the list goes on) BUT I CONDEMN ALL ACTS OF TERRORISM DONT GET ME WRONG
yes it would make sense if iraqis or palestinians were blowing themselves up. but they are not. its people from pakistani heritage, muslims from india, africa, somalia and even muslim converts from the uk. the one defining thing that unites them is they are all muslim.
you didnt catch polish people bombing england because their "fellow catholic brothers" were being attacked in northern ireland.
no the problem is not the politics. its the religion.
also i find it funny how palestine was neglected by the muslim world until there was islamic terrorism. palestinian terrorism was not islamic. they were muslims but their struggle was one more practical and pragmatic to that of such groups as ETA or the IRA. islamic terrorism as im sure you well know is a totally different kettle of fish.
Original post by samcharles
8)No one is forcing the secular to be religious! I would argue the secular are causing the religious to become more secular...
8)No one is forcing the secular to be religious! I would argue the secular are causing the religious to become more secular...
I have had to learn about islam. why? not because i heard the call to prayer. not because i met nice people who were muslim. no. quite the opposite. islam is a threat. you have muslims killing people in kenya for not being able to recite prayers in arabic. i can't even discuss islam with muslims because muslims will use kitman/taqiyya and lie, just like you have, time and time again. the only response is to actually start reading scripture. not from a loving fascinated religious view point. but from a lawyer/detective like angle.
you have made claims on behalf of an entire religion which you cannot uphold with scripture. i have exemplified and evidenced scripture and pointed out real world facts. you are merely just saying nice things with no truth to them. you are lying to hide the truth about islam. this is the nature of taqiyya/kitman
Original post by samcharles
9) Grooming gangs are filthy and are not related to islam, Muslim men are not even allowed to touch the hand of an unrelated woman let alone rape her. While I dont blame the girls, I would encourage them to dress more modestly so as to not be looked at as they walk down the street as a piece of flesh but a dignified human being....But thats just my advice Im not forcing it upon anyone
9) Grooming gangs are filthy and are not related to islam, Muslim men are not even allowed to touch the hand of an unrelated woman let alone rape her. While I dont blame the girls, I would encourage them to dress more modestly so as to not be looked at as they walk down the street as a piece of flesh but a dignified human being....But thats just my advice Im not forcing it upon anyone
it is related to islam. its not coming from a non muslim community. there are attitudes such as the one you have displayed here with talks of modesty. ideas of blaming the victim. the same anti western ideas. notice how the muslim community across europe increases the rape statistics disproportionately to its small size.
here is an article on how Adil Rashid raped a 13 year old girl.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10060570/Oxford-grooming-gang-We-will-regret-ignoring-Asian-thugs-who-target-white-girls.html
"Rashid told psychologists he had no idea that having sex with a willing 13-year-old was against the law; besides, his education had taught him to believe that “women are no more worthy than a lollipop that has been dropped on the ground”.
If the fresh-faced Rashid had picked up that view in a madrassa in Karachi it would be profoundly depressing, though not surprising. But the school he attended was in Birmingham, for heaven’s sake! Although it cannot be named for “legal reasons”, the school is voluntary-aided – mainly funded by the taxpayer. At this hugely popular Islamic school, where a majority of pupils are from a Pakistani background, boys and girls are taught in separate classes; a segregation policy no normal comprehensive could get away with."
he was let off. why?
because:
1. he was from a muslim community that was so closed off he was apparently "not aware of western law"
2. he had been educated in a madrassa
muslims have an issue with integration with this country. the above proves that.
muslims have issues with rape. the koran proves that
the koran says.
4:24
"And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess." meaning if you take a women who is not married by force this is expectable.
this is why there is the guardianship system in islam where women cannot leave the house without male "protection" because of course they NEED protection from the men who are permitted to rape those of whom their "right hand possess"
Original post by samcharles
10) Praying on the bus was quite a rare act...but at the same time if people can go all out snogging without ridicule on the bus why would a silent prayer be a problem? (the muslim prayer is silent when not in congregation)
10) Praying on the bus was quite a rare act...but at the same time if people can go all out snogging without ridicule on the bus why would a silent prayer be a problem? (the muslim prayer is silent when not in congregation)
so why was he getting attention? he wasn't just stood there being normal and then people used their psychic powers to know he was praying? if he was doing the whole bowing to the east thing then yea thats weird.
also we live in the west. we've out grown the sexual taboos of puritanism from the 1600s. whilst islam is making a return to puritanism with the wahabi movement.
kissing in public is frowned upon and risks public attention and possible ridicule with people shouting "get a room" and so forth. but quite simply it is far more normal and likely for people to kiss in public than for a muslim pray at a bus stop. which is quite bizarre. its not exactly a comfortable sedentary space ideal for a relaxed moment of prayer and reflection.
Original post by samcharles
To end off I don't appreciate your last comment...why should we keep our heads down and shy away from society because of propaganda and intolerant people? I would argue that muslims should speak out for the truth and eradicate all these false perceptions by educated narrative!
To end off I don't appreciate your last comment...why should we keep our heads down and shy away from society because of propaganda and intolerant people? I would argue that muslims should speak out for the truth and eradicate all these false perceptions by educated narrative!
i'm not saying muslims HAVE to keep their heads down. its up to them
but you know the deal.
muslims have increasingly taken advantage of tolerance in this country. claiming racism to the point where now you've had to change it to islamaphobia cause you've rinsed it dry.
muslims do shy away from society. thats the whole reason rashid mentioned up above earlier was able to be "unaware" of the fact that its not ok to rape 13 year olds.
but of course the koran teaches you that you can have sex with a child as long as its on its period and that sex is only ok if you have married her, taken her by force or if she is your slave.
the prophet muhammad regularly had sex with his concubines outside his marriage and he also when capturing people during war allowed his men to rape the wives of the men he had captured.
do you know what i find sad though?
when i see british people from Unite Against Fascism attacking the british people from the English Defence League.
but then i see islamic protests screaming for war booty.
where are the counter protesting muslims? where are the muslims that think this is wrong?
no where to be seen.
because quite honestly they don't care. not that much.
instead its just easier to not challenge any of the violent ideology until the point that someone gets killed or injured and then wheel out someone like Sheikh Ibrahim Mogra to say "islam is a religion of peace" for what feels like the thousandth time.
you know what else i find sad?
there was a rise in rape statistics among young black and mixed race boys.
they were more increasingly being convicted of rape.
why is this relevant?
i'll tell you.
the reaction to this information caused immediate concern amongst the black community.
there was very quickly a documentary made (by black people) called "rape in the city"
the documentary concluded that the problem was to do with the power of criminal gangs and that everywhere you found criminal gangs who thought that they were above the law, regardless of race, you found a significant rise in rapes. they also found that the gangs would take hold in poor areas. so it turned out not so much to be a black problem, it was a gang and welfare issue. they found mixed racial groups partaking in the rapes and found no evidence of racial motivation behind the rapes. indeed they were essentially raping their "own kind" and people local to them who would be residing in the same estate.
now lets compare this to the muslim pedophile gangs.
muslim men from incredibly insular muslim communities that are accused of not integrating.
growing up in an environment where women are not equal to men or respected as such. where women are blamed for being victims and accused of being sluts for not wearing balaclavas.
muslim men of all ages organising and networking to leave their local communities to go on the hunt for non muslim targets "which their right hand may posses".
there is no challenge to their behaviour in the eyes of the koran.
they decide to target the most vulnerable.
during their attacks they are known for racial hatred in their dialog.
not only this but they engage in sex trafficking and trade. selling these children as sex slaves to others and pimping them out to other muslims up and down the country.
police try to investigate the problem.
the police are accused of racism.
people who mention the problem are accused of racism
the police hit a stone wall from the community. the muslim community is not helping police catch these pedophiles. they are aiding them.
the police change the "harborers notice" to the "child abduction notice" to allow them more invasive investigating approaches into penetrating the uncooperative muslim community to catch these pedophiles.
meanwhile the muslim community still does not care about the fact that these girls are suffering this horror.
the muslim community does not care about the fact that these men are coming exclusively from their community.
the muslim community does not challenge the people in their community who do it or the people who hinder the police in their investigations.
time and time again the muslim community had chances to stand up and say. "look. this is a problem. we do not except it and we will stamp it out."
no. never happened. still hasn't.
the muslim community quite frankly cares more about looking respectable than about the negative trending ideas within their own ranks and the victims of the actions this type of thinking results in.
for a long time muslims denied it even existed and said it was racist propaganda.
numerous tabloids and documentaries (not made by muslims sadly) exposing it later there are still some who deny it.
or those who simply just point the finger and say "well they are raping too". "theres pedophiles everywhere so what?" don't care about the very unique problem of harbouring pedophiles and producing pedophiles from your own community? awesome.
but even now that you get muslims that are even willing to admit there is a problem. what is being done?
Mohammed Shafiq of the Ramadhan Foundation?
but even he has said.
"this is not a race issue, it has nothing to do with islam, it's got nothing to do with the muslim community."
when it quite clearly is and has got to do with them. nothing will be done unless the truth is owned up to and faced.
alcoholism is a issue in the irish community
gun crime is an issue in the black community
these communities admit their problems and move forward to tackle them despite the fact that they are problems associated with negative stereotypes of their community.
i appreciate Mohammed Shafiq and his efforts to try and do something about it though.
and to an extent i understand why he is not saying that its a muslim problem. secretly i think he knows it is. but that he knows that if he admitted that publicly the door of cooperation from the muslim community would be shut to him even more than it already is. but just doing what he has done so far has put him at risk. he has said.
"i've stood up against this despite risking the personal safety of me and my family"
but tbh, i think his efforts whilst well intended are in vein.
there is a huge antagonism to the point of himself and his family being at risk of physical harm from the muslim community.
not only that but he has yet to admit the real gravity of the problem.
that things such as islamic scripture cater to this behaviour.
that madrassas are teaching things that lead to this behaviour (see rashid)
that the community actually aids these pedophiles by preventing the police to investigate (see notices)
and by trying to hide the problem from the police and the media calling out racism and islamaphobia.
then throw terrorism on top of that.
given all of this can you see why the muslim community has set fire to the bridge of tolerance with other brits?
the tolerance has been taken advantage of. and it is fading.
muslims keep rocking the boat of tolerance. and its gonna bring the rest of us minorities in this country down with it when you guys (as in the muslim community as a collective) tip it over.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by CryptoidAlien
I was on the bus today and this Muslim guy was praying and quite a lot of people were laughing at him, looking at him like he was crazy. I then overheard one guy say 'this isn't a mosque' but got off at that stop so don't know if there was an argument or fight. Is Islam shown enough respect in society, if any? I kind of understnad terrorism now.
Islam is given far too much respect in Britain
Muslims are not given enough respect though.
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