Rights of the father.
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Original post by Wade-
A woman is the one looking after the child. Therefore, she automatically has "the burden of a child".
In my experience my father refused to pay child support after he cheated on my mother. If men really don't want to pay for their children they'll find a way not to. One of my favourite quotes from my family law lecturer is parents don't have "rights" they have "rights and responsibilities". These go hand in hand. I personally hope there are enough decent guys left in the world that if they ended up being with a girl who falls pregnant that he would pitch in and help even if it wasn't emotionally, at least financially. Considering children cost a fortune to raise.
Maybe I just have too much faith in men.
Maybe I just have too much faith in men.
Original post by dyslexicvegie
No one knows what there financial situation is going to be in years to come. (redundancy, financial crisis, ill health) A child is less of a 'burden' is that 'burden' is shared between two parents. Would you really feel guilt free if you let a women bring up the child you both created in financial hardship, meaning that child had less opportunities in life, when you could have helped?
A second point. Abortion is not always the easiest 'get out clause'. For some women it is not an option. I am pro-choice but for some women family pressers, religion, being of an age where this may be there last chance to ever have a baby or just the way they are brought up, means that an abortion is not an option or emotionally damaging when it doesn't need to be. It's also doesn't sound like a pleasant presager.
A second point. Abortion is not always the easiest 'get out clause'. For some women it is not an option. I am pro-choice but for some women family pressers, religion, being of an age where this may be there last chance to ever have a baby or just the way they are brought up, means that an abortion is not an option or emotionally damaging when it doesn't need to be. It's also doesn't sound like a pleasant presager.
Of course it's less of a burden if it's shared but please answer me this; how is fair that only women have the right to discharge that burden and men are simply at their mercy?
It's still a choice to have an abortion regardless of what outside factors there may be
Original post by DorianGrayism
I am not ignoring it. I have already stated that Pregnancy has nothing to do with the man.
It is your fault if you are at her mercy. You shouldn't have had sex.
It is your fault if you are at her mercy. You shouldn't have had sex.
Pregnancy has nothing to do with a man? So it's nothing to do with you that your child is due in nine months? It's nothing to do with that you're about to go through 18 years of huge expenditure, in some cases for something you don't want?
Your logic could so easily be applied to women and to ban abortion. If you're going to say 'if you don't want a child then use contraception' why does that only apply to men? Why not ban abortion as well? You seem to have a very prudish attitude toward sex as though it's something you should only do if you want a baby.
Original post by DorianGrayism
Pregnancy is solely the responsibility of the woman. Men do not pay for pregnancy, do not take the health risks associated with pregnancy and are not permanently changed by it.
Sorry, but being Pregnant is not the same risk as everyday life.
That is why there are multiple women's hospitals dotted around the country that are specifically designed to lower the risk of death and injury as a result of pregnancy.
It isn't like a stroll in the park like you are suggesting.
Sorry, but being Pregnant is not the same risk as everyday life.
That is why there are multiple women's hospitals dotted around the country that are specifically designed to lower the risk of death and injury as a result of pregnancy.
It isn't like a stroll in the park like you are suggesting.
From 2010-2012 324 women died during or within sex weeks of child birth from complications caused by the birth. In 2011 alone there were 724,000 babies born in the UK. That means every pregnant woman has a 1 in 4469 chance in dying from child birth. You're 20 times more likely to be killed crossing road so I'd argue that every day life is more dangerous than child birth. We don't live in the 15th century, the vast majority of mothers survive child birth
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by DorianGrayism
A woman is the one looking after the child. Therefore, she automatically has "the burden of a child".
She isn't forced into having the child though, as you've repeated she could use contraception but even if she's a tad bit forgetful she can always just abort it
Original post by Wade-
Pregnancy has nothing to do with a man? So it's nothing to do with you that your child is due in nine months? It's nothing to do with that you're about to go through 18 years of huge expenditure, in some cases for something you don't want?
Pregnancy has nothing to do with a man? So it's nothing to do with you that your child is due in nine months? It's nothing to do with that you're about to go through 18 years of huge expenditure, in some cases for something you don't want?
Yes. That is correct. The same way that ejaculation has nothing to do with a woman or my kidney has nothing to do with my mum, unless I choose that to be the case.
As I said before, you don't want an 18 year burden. Don't have sex.
Once someone is pregnant, it has nothing to do with you.
Original post by Wade-
Your logic could so easily be applied to women and to ban abortion. If you're going to say 'if you don't want a child then use contraception' why does that only apply to men? Why not ban abortion as well? You seem to have a very prudish attitude toward sex as though it's something you should only do if you want a baby.
Your logic could so easily be applied to women and to ban abortion. If you're going to say 'if you don't want a child then use contraception' why does that only apply to men? Why not ban abortion as well? You seem to have a very prudish attitude toward sex as though it's something you should only do if you want a baby.
And people do use that argument.
However, Abortion isn't illegal for many reasons and a balance has to be struck in that case.
Original post by Wade-
From 2010-2012 324 women died during or within sex weeks of child birth from complications caused by the birth. In 2011 alone there were 724,000 babies born in the UK. That means every pregnant woman has a 1 in 4469 chance in dying from child birth. You're 20 times more likely to be killed crossing road so I'd argue that every day life is more dangerous than child birth. We don't live in the 15th century, the vast majority of mothers survive child birth
From 2010-2012 324 women died during or within sex weeks of child birth from complications caused by the birth. In 2011 alone there were 724,000 babies born in the UK. That means every pregnant woman has a 1 in 4469 chance in dying from child birth. You're 20 times more likely to be killed crossing road so I'd argue that every day life is more dangerous than child birth. We don't live in the 15th century, the vast majority of mothers survive child birth
So what? That is only after spending millions of healthcare every year and monitoring women for 9 months.
You are not paying for the pregnancy. You are not taking the risk. You are not permanently changed post pregnancy. Therefore, you have no say over the pregnancy.
You are not 20 more times likely to be killed crossing a road. That means that you have a 1 in 200 chance of dying each time you cross which is blatantly absurd.
Original post by Wade-
She isn't forced into having the child though, as you've repeated she could use contraception but even if she's a tad bit forgetful she can always just abort it
No. I was talking post birth.
Anyway, you can't have it both ways. Men can also use contraception.
Original post by DorianGrayism
Yes. That is correct. The same way that ejaculation has nothing to do with a woman or my kidney has nothing to do with my mum, unless I choose that to be the case.
As I said before, you don't want an 18 year burden. Don't have sex.
Once someone is pregnant, it has nothing to do with you.
And people do use that argument.
However, Abortion isn't illegal for many reasons and a balance has to be struck in that case.
So what? That is only after spending millions of healthcare every year and monitoring women for 9 months.
You are not paying for the pregnancy. You are not taking the risk. You are not permanently changed post pregnancy. Therefore, you have no say over the pregnancy.
You are not 20 more times likely to be killed crossing a road. That means that you have a 1 in 200 chance of dying each time you cross which is blatantly absurd.
As I said before, you don't want an 18 year burden. Don't have sex.
Once someone is pregnant, it has nothing to do with you.
And people do use that argument.
However, Abortion isn't illegal for many reasons and a balance has to be struck in that case.
So what? That is only after spending millions of healthcare every year and monitoring women for 9 months.
You are not paying for the pregnancy. You are not taking the risk. You are not permanently changed post pregnancy. Therefore, you have no say over the pregnancy.
You are not 20 more times likely to be killed crossing a road. That means that you have a 1 in 200 chance of dying each time you cross which is blatantly absurd.
The simple fact is that if men don't want to have children then they have to use contraception, if women don't want to have a children they can use contraception or, like I said, if they forget then they still have a way out unlike men which is clear discrimination.
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Original post by Wade-
The simple fact is that if men don't want to have children then they have to use contraception, if women don't want to have a children they can use contraception or, like I said, if they forget then they still have a way out unlike men which is clear discrimination.
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Your argument is like saying it is discrimination if I cannot get into the under 6 ride at Chessington because I am over the height meter.
The fact that a woman can abort has nothing to do with you. You do not have a Uterus. You cannot have the baby with her.
Original post by Wade-
The simple fact is that if men don't want to have children then they have to use contraception, if women don't want to have a children they can use contraception or, like I said, if they forget then they still have a way out unlike men which is clear discrimination.
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It's biology.
Females do the carrying, the throwing up, the hormones, the wait gain, the painful abortion or the painful birth, take the career break, the breast feeding, the risk of mental illness and some to all of the financial and physical support.
In exchange for not doing that, males run the risk of maybe at some point being legally responsible for a child they would rather didn't exist and then having to go to all that effort to fined a way not to pay child support.
Original post by dyslexicvegie
It's biology.
Females do the carrying, the throwing up, the hormones, the wait gain, the painful abortion or the painful birth, take the career break, the breast feeding, the risk of mental illness and some to all of the financial and physical support.
In exchange for not doing that, males run the risk of maybe at some point being legally responsible for a child they would rather didn't exist and then having to go to all that effort to fined a way not to pay child support.
Females do the carrying, the throwing up, the hormones, the wait gain, the painful abortion or the painful birth, take the career break, the breast feeding, the risk of mental illness and some to all of the financial and physical support.
In exchange for not doing that, males run the risk of maybe at some point being legally responsible for a child they would rather didn't exist and then having to go to all that effort to fined a way not to pay child support.
But my point all along is no woman has to deal with the burden of being a parent. Women can avoid all of those things you describe but men can't avoid their burden, that hardly seems fair
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Original post by DorianGrayism
Your argument is like saying it is discrimination if I cannot get into the under 6 ride at Chessington because I am over the height meter.
The fact that a woman can abort has nothing to do with you. You do not have a Uterus. You cannot have the baby with her.
The fact that a woman can abort has nothing to do with you. You do not have a Uterus. You cannot have the baby with her.
That would be similar to my argument if I was saying I want to have abortion, why is fair that only women get to have them.
My point all along has been that it's unfair that men have no rights over children of theirs that are about to born
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Original post by Wade-
That would be similar to my argument if I was saying I want to have abortion, why is fair that only women get to have them.
My point all along has been that it's unfair that men have no rights over children of theirs that are about to born
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My point all along has been that it's unfair that men have no rights over children of theirs that are about to born
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It isn't unfair. It is not your body. So, you have no rights over it.
Original post by Wade-
But my point all along is no woman has to deal with the burden of being a parent. Women can avoid all of those things you describe but men can't avoid their burden, that hardly seems fair
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Well, they can. They don't have to have sex.
Hmm...this is interesting and quite a relevant example; Just covered the Supreme Court ruling in the 1973 Roe vs. Wade case in A2 History in terms of women's civil rights in America - essentially legalised abortion because it was decided that it fell under the 14th Amendment in the US Constitution to a right to privacy. The legal team in favour of the ruling argued that although men and women have an equal responsibility in pregnancy, the women carries a greater weight of the 'burden' as she must carry the child. This seems to tip the balance in favour of the woman's personal decision in terms of allowing her choice to abort a child. Although it similarly doesn't entirely discount the father from the equation; even though he would be powerless to prevent the abortion of his child if that is what the woman wished his responsibility is still present and noted nonetheless. It's a complex issue!! Really interesting thread.
Original post by Wade-
But my point all along is no woman has to deal with the burden of being a parent. Women can avoid all of those things you describe but men can't avoid their burden, that hardly seems fair
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I cant avoid what I have just listed if/when I want a child. My partner wouldn't have to. I don't think its fair, but its what evolution and my XX chromosomes have lumbered me with. I must deal with it. A friend of mine was left in a state when she miscarried age 16, that wasn't fair. Biology an't fair.
Being abandoned emotionally and financially by your farther Isn't fair.
There are fundamental differences between the sexes which means creating an embryo has different consequences for the two different people. Personalty I think there can be no solution to this, but Dads should be Dads.
Original post by DorianGrayism
It isn't unfair. It is not your body. So, you have no rights over it.
The baby inside of the woman isn't her body either
Original post by DorianGrayism
Well, they can. They don't have to have sex.
Well then if you're pro-choice you're a hypocrite
Original post by dyslexicvegie
I cant avoid what I have just listed if/when I want a child. My partner wouldn't have to. I don't think its fair, but its what evolution and my XX chromosomes have lumbered me with. I must deal with it. A friend of mine was left in a state when she miscarried age 16, that wasn't fair. Biology an't fair.
Being abandoned emotionally and financially by your farther Isn't fair.
There are fundamental differences between the sexes which means creating an embryo has different consequences for the two different people. Personalty I think there can be no solution to this, but Dads should be Dads.
Being abandoned emotionally and financially by your farther Isn't fair.
There are fundamental differences between the sexes which means creating an embryo has different consequences for the two different people. Personalty I think there can be no solution to this, but Dads should be Dads.
But being forced into having a child you don't want isn't fair either. With the solution I proposed you have both the mother and the father getting an actual say in whether or not they have a child, not just the mother. Why is fair that the father who, once the child is born, will be equally effected by the life of the child has no say in whether to have the child or not
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Original post by Wade-
That makes no difference to your argument. It still has nothing to do with you since you want to kill the baby anyway.
Original post by Wade-
Well then if you're pro-choice you're a hypocrite
Not really.
Men have a choice. Don't have sex and then you won't have a baby.
You want to lie and pretend that men are completely helpless in the matter and then leave the problem for the tax payer to pick up.
(edited 9 years ago)
You are all too busy discussing the rights of the father when the true issue is the wrongs of the father
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Original post by SmallTownGirl
So you have no respect for body autonomy? This is my body. If I have a child it will be because I want one not because the government or the biological father say I must. The only person who has any rights over my body is me. You can personally choose not to have an abortion but don't you ever dare suggest taking away my right to one.
It isn't your body. As soon as you become pregnant, it is someone else's body. Your right to convenience does not, or should not, trample over someone else's right to life.
You've no obligation to keep the kid. Give him up for adoption of you don't want him. But killing him is utterly unjustified.
It is a sad state of affairs when a society places a woman's convenience over the next generation's literal existence. It is even more shocking when stuff like this happens:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10717566/Aborted-babies-incinerated-to-heat-UK-hospitals.html
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