Why I hate "feminism"- as a woman.
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Original post by KingStannis
To be honest this argument against feminism isn't the best. Too vague and incisive. At its best it does what I do in a single paragraph.
Since I'm not a native myself, please clarify what incisive means to you, as to me it means a good thing (and kind of contrasts with "vague")
I will most likely have to compress that in 600 words, so be sure that I'll polish it at the end
.It's not really an argument but a viewpoint (since I've drawn my ideas out of my own experience)
Prove it in a paragraph then.Original post by uglyula
Feminism is believing in equal rights and opportunities of the sexes. Regarding whether your male or female, if you don't agree with feminism you don't agree with equal rights and opportunities of the sexes (which is horrible and stupid). That is all, it's very simple.
Not all feminism. You summarized some principles of liberal feminism, at best.
Mary Daly, radical feminist, claims that women have to go beyond adrogyny and create a truly female culture separate from men - a "women's culture" separate from aggressive culture of men where women can share their values of caring, tenderness and closeness to nature. How does that give equal rights and opportunities to both sexes, in your opinion- building an iron curtain between the sexes?
Original post by LaMandarine
Since I'm not a native myself, please clarify what incisive means to you, as to me it means a good thing (and kind of contrasts with "vague")
I will most likely have to compress that in 600 words, so be sure that I'll polish it at the end.
It's not really an argument but a viewpoint (since I've drawn my ideas out of my own experience)
Prove it in a paragraph then.
I will most likely have to compress that in 600 words, so be sure that I'll polish it at the end
.It's not really an argument but a viewpoint (since I've drawn my ideas out of my own experience)
Prove it in a paragraph then.I think he meant "indecisive"
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Original post by Guills on wheels
Right. Your reply was impeccably numbered. Mine won't be. Sorry. I just woke up.
Basically, what I was saying about my opinion not being valid is a bit like how, if there were SU elections at my uni, I wouldn't ****ing run for BME officer. I can't truly understand the nuanced and embedded nature of sexism since, well, I'm not a woman and the vast majority of sexism is directed at women. I can't say, feminism is like this because women are discriminated in X way because I shouldn't be speaking on anyone else's behalf. That would just be me thinking that because I'm male I'm an expert on everything, even things which primarily affect women. I'm not deepening an inequality, because I'm still here and participating in a discussion. If I was deepening an inequality it would be me expressing my opinion because I am male, and thus reinforcing male privilege (I am cleverer than you because of my gender etc etc.)
Threre's nothing stopping men from expressing their opinion, should they actually have (have/had) a relationship/interaction with women. I read about male feminists being fathers of daughters and husbands, boyfriends
I quoted Mill for a reason.His wife was a woman's rights advocate, and whilst she purported equality in both public and private spheres, Mill argued that women should be given the vote, as this would make them into morally responsible citizens alongside that of men. Nobody is smarter because of his/her gender. If feminism truly seeks equality, it should embrace equality in all its terms- with that being said, if they want to have their say on something and be listened, they should not question men for doing so as well.
Does that mean that I hate "the feminist cause"? - To be fair, your post is titled "Why I hate feminism," you can't blame me for extrapolating. I would argue that actually, there is, if you look widely and fundamentally enough. It's for equality; radical, intersectional, cultural, liberal, socialist - they all argue for the same thing, they just want to do it in a different way or for a different aspect; radically and comprehensively, for people of all races and of all demographics, individually, individually, and economically respectively.
I said I hate feminism, not the feminist cause. I argumented pretty obviously that the main reasons why I hate feminism are that because it is so broadly interpreted by women themselves, there are some feminists against other feminists. You can't say that feminism, as a whole, embraces equality when radical feminists are looking to create a female culture separate from men. I'm pretty sure that creating an iron curtain between the sexes doesn't represent the interest of many feminists
* Why I jokingly pointed at Daly's sexuality - her claims are entirely biased because of that. Of course she would rather be in a collective filled with women rather than with men. I am not implying that all radical feminists are lesbians, god forbid, but I read and listened to enough of her speeches to know that her praisal for women is not solely resumed to their nature.
Regarding pro choice, shaving and objectification and all that. I don't deny that you've been "bullied" by some radical feminists. I know one myself, though she isn't so argumentative. I praised radical feminism for being a sort of concept group that wasn't entirely thought through but promoted discussion. (????)This leaves it obviously open to quite radical and left-field ideas, some of which aren't great. Every feminist I know, and I know a few, has absolutely no qualms whatsoever about pro-choice. You seemed to vilify radical feminists for being nut-cases; they're actually very few and far between. Not many people actually believe what they say, and most feminists would actually think you're great for doing what you want to do. To a large extent, socialisation whereby people are led to believe that a certain body type is the ideal one happens; walk into most clothes shops (Urban Outfitters and Topshop/Topman especially) and you'll see that is the case. Flesh coloured tights only come in one colour of flesh. If you want to conform to that ideal, then great. You're doing it because you want to, not because someone is telling you to do so against your will. The role of radical feminism in that context is to show people that they don't have to conform to that one body type. The two can work cohesively; the kind of 'feminism' where you are criticised for doing that is a very small and very judgemental (and perhaps malicious) type of feminism. It's not what most people think.
So by staining the interest and image of many other feminists actually seeking equality, radical feminists are still good because of their "banter?".
The only problem with socialisation/conditioning is how it affects people like you who want to be like that and make themselves attractive but are of a different race, or not as able as you or simply don't have the same features. For you, it's easy, you're white, you're western, cisgender and you can conform to that. For those of colour, that's impossible, and that's where radical feminism steps in and says actually, what the **** is going on with this whole ideal of beauty, anyway? It makes you question it.
Sorry, but for many years I praised some Afro-Carribean friends who had the most bootylicious body. I'll never get to have that
. Make themselves "attractive"? Attractive is something you can NEVER define in the name of every person on this planet. I already said that our bodies are a living canvas and we all come in all shapes, sizes and colours. Beautiful is taking care of yourself and having a healthy lifestyle. I grew up in my grandpa's farm for 2 summers and he had no money in his wallet. He only used what the soil gave him, and I looked radiant. Of course capitalism says "yeah women are pretty, but with this cream/lotion/shampoo/etc you will be even prettier/ femme fatale etc" and I am not at all in favour of that. But this goes against men as well. My ex had twice as many cosmetics in his bag than me.
Also, if I'll ever hear somebody saying that I've got it easier because I'm white and I'm a Westerner, I'll send them a pie with dung by mail.
Radical feminism surely does question a broad range of issues. My problem with them so far is that they see everything related to sexuality as the basis of the oppression of women by men, in much the same way as Marx saw capitalism as the scourge of the working class.
Yeah, of course there are, there will always be a small proportion who are attracted to that body type. Just because there are some though doesn't make it okay. The overwhelming majority think differently to that. Individual cases tell you very little.
Basically, what I was saying about my opinion not being valid is a bit like how, if there were SU elections at my uni, I wouldn't ****ing run for BME officer. I can't truly understand the nuanced and embedded nature of sexism since, well, I'm not a woman and the vast majority of sexism is directed at women. I can't say, feminism is like this because women are discriminated in X way because I shouldn't be speaking on anyone else's behalf. That would just be me thinking that because I'm male I'm an expert on everything, even things which primarily affect women. I'm not deepening an inequality, because I'm still here and participating in a discussion. If I was deepening an inequality it would be me expressing my opinion because I am male, and thus reinforcing male privilege (I am cleverer than you because of my gender etc etc.)
Threre's nothing stopping men from expressing their opinion, should they actually have (have/had) a relationship/interaction with women. I read about male feminists being fathers of daughters and husbands, boyfriends
I quoted Mill for a reason.His wife was a woman's rights advocate, and whilst she purported equality in both public and private spheres, Mill argued that women should be given the vote, as this would make them into morally responsible citizens alongside that of men. Nobody is smarter because of his/her gender. If feminism truly seeks equality, it should embrace equality in all its terms- with that being said, if they want to have their say on something and be listened, they should not question men for doing so as well.
Does that mean that I hate "the feminist cause"? - To be fair, your post is titled "Why I hate feminism," you can't blame me for extrapolating. I would argue that actually, there is, if you look widely and fundamentally enough. It's for equality; radical, intersectional, cultural, liberal, socialist - they all argue for the same thing, they just want to do it in a different way or for a different aspect; radically and comprehensively, for people of all races and of all demographics, individually, individually, and economically respectively.
I said I hate feminism, not the feminist cause. I argumented pretty obviously that the main reasons why I hate feminism are that because it is so broadly interpreted by women themselves, there are some feminists against other feminists. You can't say that feminism, as a whole, embraces equality when radical feminists are looking to create a female culture separate from men. I'm pretty sure that creating an iron curtain between the sexes doesn't represent the interest of many feminists
* Why I jokingly pointed at Daly's sexuality - her claims are entirely biased because of that. Of course she would rather be in a collective filled with women rather than with men. I am not implying that all radical feminists are lesbians, god forbid, but I read and listened to enough of her speeches to know that her praisal for women is not solely resumed to their nature.
Regarding pro choice, shaving and objectification and all that. I don't deny that you've been "bullied" by some radical feminists. I know one myself, though she isn't so argumentative. I praised radical feminism for being a sort of concept group that wasn't entirely thought through but promoted discussion. (????)This leaves it obviously open to quite radical and left-field ideas, some of which aren't great. Every feminist I know, and I know a few, has absolutely no qualms whatsoever about pro-choice. You seemed to vilify radical feminists for being nut-cases; they're actually very few and far between. Not many people actually believe what they say, and most feminists would actually think you're great for doing what you want to do. To a large extent, socialisation whereby people are led to believe that a certain body type is the ideal one happens; walk into most clothes shops (Urban Outfitters and Topshop/Topman especially) and you'll see that is the case. Flesh coloured tights only come in one colour of flesh. If you want to conform to that ideal, then great. You're doing it because you want to, not because someone is telling you to do so against your will. The role of radical feminism in that context is to show people that they don't have to conform to that one body type. The two can work cohesively; the kind of 'feminism' where you are criticised for doing that is a very small and very judgemental (and perhaps malicious) type of feminism. It's not what most people think.
So by staining the interest and image of many other feminists actually seeking equality, radical feminists are still good because of their "banter?".
The only problem with socialisation/conditioning is how it affects people like you who want to be like that and make themselves attractive but are of a different race, or not as able as you or simply don't have the same features. For you, it's easy, you're white, you're western, cisgender and you can conform to that. For those of colour, that's impossible, and that's where radical feminism steps in and says actually, what the **** is going on with this whole ideal of beauty, anyway? It makes you question it.
Sorry, but for many years I praised some Afro-Carribean friends who had the most bootylicious body. I'll never get to have that
. Make themselves "attractive"? Attractive is something you can NEVER define in the name of every person on this planet. I already said that our bodies are a living canvas and we all come in all shapes, sizes and colours. Beautiful is taking care of yourself and having a healthy lifestyle. I grew up in my grandpa's farm for 2 summers and he had no money in his wallet. He only used what the soil gave him, and I looked radiant. Of course capitalism says "yeah women are pretty, but with this cream/lotion/shampoo/etc you will be even prettier/ femme fatale etc" and I am not at all in favour of that. But this goes against men as well. My ex had twice as many cosmetics in his bag than me. Also, if I'll ever hear somebody saying that I've got it easier because I'm white and I'm a Westerner, I'll send them a pie with dung by mail.
Radical feminism surely does question a broad range of issues. My problem with them so far is that they see everything related to sexuality as the basis of the oppression of women by men, in much the same way as Marx saw capitalism as the scourge of the working class.
Yeah, of course there are, there will always be a small proportion who are attracted to that body type. Just because there are some though doesn't make it okay. The overwhelming majority think differently to that. Individual cases tell you very little.
All my replies are in bold
Original post by seaholme
Considering I said I did read it, the question is are you capable of focusing your attention on even fewer words? 
/resentment of being quoted in this
/resentment of being quoted in this
Sorry. My wrath clouded my vision
Original post by uglyula
Feminism is believing in equal rights and opportunities of the sexes. Regarding whether your male or female, if you don't agree with feminism you don't agree with equal rights and opportunities of the sexes (which is horrible and stupid). That is all, it's very simple.
No, it isn't simple at all. Feminism doesn't have a monopoly on ideas of gender equality. It's a jealous and bullying tactic used by so many feminists to say that people who don't subscribe to the same political movement as them are 'horrible and stupid' and don't believe in any form of gender equality, get over yourself.
Original post by LaMandarine
Since I'm not a native myself, please clarify what incisive means to you, as to me it means a good thing (and kind of contrasts with "vague"
I will most likely have to compress that in 600 words, so be sure that I'll polish it at the end.
It's not really an argument but a viewpoint (since I've drawn my ideas out of my own experience)
Prove it in a paragraph then.
I will most likely have to compress that in 600 words, so be sure that I'll polish it at the end
.It's not really an argument but a viewpoint (since I've drawn my ideas out of my own experience)
Prove it in a paragraph then.Erm, I meant unincisive, sorry.
Nah your alright.
Original post by LaMandarine
Not all feminism. You summarized some principles of liberal feminism, at best.
Mary Daly, radical feminist, claims that women have to go beyond adrogyny and create a truly female culture separate from men - a "women's culture" separate from aggressive culture of men where women can share their values of caring, tenderness and closeness to nature. How does that give equal rights and opportunities to both sexes, in your opinion- building an iron curtain between the sexes?
Mary Daly, radical feminist, claims that women have to go beyond adrogyny and create a truly female culture separate from men - a "women's culture" separate from aggressive culture of men where women can share their values of caring, tenderness and closeness to nature. How does that give equal rights and opportunities to both sexes, in your opinion- building an iron curtain between the sexes?
Your argument is weak when you use an example of ONE person. You try to dwell deep within the concept of feminism when you clearly don't understand it, there's no point in you doing that. From what I know Maly Daly has written lots of intelligent books about EQUALITY, and in one of those books she mentioned something about the process of evolution which would decontaminate our planet by getting rid of men- in order to make assumptions on it you should probably go read that book and not just quote randomly to seem more educated because you're clearly not
I feel like the purpose of your post is just to argue and not actually learn anything from what some of these really well educated people are telling you
If that's the case, then don't bother
Xxx
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Original post by Birkenhead
No, it isn't simple at all. Feminism doesn't have a monopoly on ideas of gender equality. It's a jealous and bullying tactic used by so many feminists to say that people who don't subscribe to the same political movement as them are 'horrible and stupid' and don't believe in any form of gender equality, get over yourself.
A feminist is someone who cares for equal rights. Gender equality is feminism. If you don't care for that, I would assume you should gain some knowledge and information about this topic, not in a jealous or a bullying way- because I CARE. Perhaps this is your personal response towards feminism, maybe you have some insecurities regarding yourself or women but don't apply that to everyone and all feministsXxx
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Original post by LaMandarine
All my replies are in bold
do you believe in white privilege?
Original post by uglyula
A feminist is someone who cares for equal rights. Gender equality is feminism. If you don't care for that, I would assume you should gain some knowledge and information about this topic, not in a jealous or a bullying way- because I CARE. Perhaps this is your personal response towards feminism, maybe you have some insecurities regarding yourself or women but don't apply that to everyone and all feministsXxx
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
You are really setting yourself up for a no True Scotsman Fallacy there.
Original post by NeverTooLatte
Why does everybody have to question every little thing on this site. I would have thought you'd be aware that "nobody" shouldn't be taken literally. My post was my opinion and did not come across nasty or spiteful at all, so I didn't really need your input, thanks. And I also appreciated the humour of other posters. I'm sorry if that didn't please you, m'lord...And again, another deluded person thinking I came here to read a novel...a famous one, at that...
Oh I see, you write a post claiming "nobody is going to read all that, sorry" then come back to say "oh I didn't mean nobody is going to read that, isn't that obvious?"
How about you figure out how to formulate a logical response instead of spewing moronic rubbish. Instead of calling someone deluded, how about you get your head out of your ass?
The OP apologises that your brain can't focus its attention on a few hundred words and suggests, perhaps, you search for posts more suitable for your level of intellect.
(It is regrettable that TSR, to this day, still neglects Key Stage 2.)
PS. stay away from blanket statements
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by RobML
I've already got enough hoes; they'll be jealous if I bring you home. I'm their one and only Satre-reading pimp.
Sartre is love, Sartre is life.
Original post by LaMandarine
O_O What the f**k. I'm sorry but why do you keep using the word acceptable when I already said not acceptable, but understandable.
Another person gave a very good example of a man dressed in a tuxedo walking in an alley. He will most definitely get robbed. Did he ask for it? No. But I'm pretty sure he was aware of the circumstances.
Rape, like any other crime, unfortunalety cannot be fully erradicated, but such crimes can be reduced if there is some awareness among women. There is not a fixed pattern that a rapist follows, but precatuion never hurts.
I was almost kidnapped when I was 12 because I decided to play with a dog next to my bloc at 11 pm. After that happened I flipping got in the house at sundown.
Another person gave a very good example of a man dressed in a tuxedo walking in an alley. He will most definitely get robbed. Did he ask for it? No. But I'm pretty sure he was aware of the circumstances.
Rape, like any other crime, unfortunalety cannot be fully erradicated, but such crimes can be reduced if there is some awareness among women. There is not a fixed pattern that a rapist follows, but precatuion never hurts.
I was almost kidnapped when I was 12 because I decided to play with a dog next to my bloc at 11 pm. After that happened I flipping got in the house at sundown.
Understandable vs acceptable isn't exactly a big red line between the two given your examples. I mean I can understand rapists... I can understand why people do all sorts of unpleasant things. So understandable doesn't really mean anything - lots of horrible things in life can be understood but that doesn't make them acceptable. I'm asking you whether you think they're acceptable or not because your examples are sufficiently ambiguous on that that I've no idea if you think they are deplorable or normal, and 'understandable' doesn't really make any judgements about anything whatsoever. So I asked! I'm using the word to get you to declare yourself more clearly.
For instance in your examples I think that the man with the tuxedo and the kid shouldn't have to change their behaviour. I accept that people can be cautious blah blah and bad things can happen, but this is talking on a level of what is/isn't okay in society (which is what feminism is about as it's a sociopolitical view). Theft, assault and kidnapping are all wrong. People in society know it, and whether they then go on to do it or not nobody can control as we've all got free will, but at least we're all agreed they're wrong.
Similarly with how women (and men, to be fair) get treated by the opposite gender. The difference is that in society it's not generally accepted that these things are wrong, and that's the issue. Not so much the secondary issue of whether we can then guarantee everybody will always behave like that. Just the 'society does not approve' label.
Good to see you seeing feminism for what it really is and not what they disingenuously claim it is. A proper woman is not a feminist. Feminists are not proper women and should not be treated as such.
You say your not sure about calling yourself a feminist which is a shame because you have pointed out why it's not a genuine movement of equality so it should be straight forward that you do not support this sinister movement.
Guys who support feminism/are feminists are an absolute disgrace, like robml who said he is a feminist. These guys are either really ignorant or are just pure simps which shows how pathetic they are.
Feminists need to be exposed of their agenda and it's even more praiseworthy when women do it since these feminists are claiming to do it on behalf of and for the benefit of women.
You say your not sure about calling yourself a feminist which is a shame because you have pointed out why it's not a genuine movement of equality so it should be straight forward that you do not support this sinister movement.
Guys who support feminism/are feminists are an absolute disgrace, like robml who said he is a feminist. These guys are either really ignorant or are just pure simps which shows how pathetic they are.
Feminists need to be exposed of their agenda and it's even more praiseworthy when women do it since these feminists are claiming to do it on behalf of and for the benefit of women.
Original post by uglyula
Your argument is weak when you use an example of ONE person. You try to dwell deep within the concept of feminism when you clearly don't understand it, there's no point in you doing that. From what I know Maly Daly has written lots of intelligent books about EQUALITY, and in one of those books she mentioned something about the process of evolution which would decontaminate our planet by getting rid of men- in order to make assumptions on it you should probably go read that book and not just quote randomly to seem more educated because you're clearly not
I feel like the purpose of your post is just to argue and not actually learn anything from what some of these really well educated people are telling you
If that's the case, then don't bother
Xxx
Posted from TSR Mobile
I feel like the purpose of your post is just to argue and not actually learn anything from what some of these really well educated people are telling you
If that's the case, then don't bother
Xxx
Posted from TSR Mobile
I just started university and you're expecting me to bring the arguments of an academic?
Please do mention the book title if you actually want to recommend it to me. I would actually read it.
I'm not educated yet, but I'm educating myself. What's the point of going to university if you're already a know-it-all?
The purpose of my post is to bring my vision of feminism. That's why I used my life experiences and the first person narrative. I am indentifying with it, not just because I am a woman, but because it has influenced my existence and my way of seeing some concepts more than any other ideology
Knowledge is indeed a powerful tool. You can have it, but if you don't know how to use it, it's worth nothing. I'm still at the stage when I'm keen to discover, so allow me to take baby steps in my academic endeavours.
I also didn't get the part that I underlined. That sounds kind of horriffic, in the way I understood it at least.
Original post by Guills on wheels
do you believe in white privilege?
No. Judging by your comments so far, I don't need to think twice whether you do or not.
I came in wanting to read this thread, expecting it to be long. But ffs this was so much longer than I expected. Read disclaimer 1 and 2 and realised it was going to be excessively long. Should put a tl;dr right at the start 
.
.Original post by LaMandarine
No. Judging by your comments so far, I don't need to think twice whether you do or not.
god help us all.
why not?
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