Gender income equality a load of bull? Discuss.
Let's face it , the reason men earn a lot more on average is because they go into higher paid industries, Finance, Engineering and some dangerous but lucrative manual jobs, where as women tend to take up jobs in less paying industries. So if these women are choosing a career that they want and the know that they arent well paid... Why do people still complain about income inequality (in developed countries where women have the choice ). Am i missing something ?
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Original post by loomynarty
Let's face it , the reason men earn a lot more on average is because they go into higher paid industries, Finance, Engineering and some dangerous but lucrative manual jobs, where as women tend to take up jobs in less paying industries.
Except that isn't the only reason. If you compare wage equality for similar work, the disparity still exists, as this report from the World Economic Forum demonstrates. You're also assuming that the existence of male-dominated and female-dominated professions is due entirely to choice. It is undeniable that there are jobs that people regard as typically masculine and jobs that people regard as typically feminine and given that those ideas are engrained from a very young age, it's not a surprise that people end up roughly falling into those categories. If we managed to completely eliminate all of these prejudices and the disparity between professions still remained then we could assume it's something to do with choice but that's the complete opposite of what we're seeing.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Plagioclase
Except that isn't the only reason. If you compare wage equality for similar work, the disparity still exists, as this report from the World Economic Forum demonstrates. You're also assuming that the existence of male-dominated and female-dominated professions is due entirely to choice. It is undeniable that there are jobs that people regard as typically masculine and jobs that people regard as typically feminine and given that those ideas are engrained from a very young age, it's not a surprise that people end up roughly falling into those categories. If we managed to completely eliminate all of these prejudices and the disparity between professions still remained then we could assume it's something to do with choice but that's the complete opposite of what we're seeing.
Even within specific career areas, men and women have different preferences and behaviors. Men work more hours on average, more overtime, are less lilely to switch career and retrain, they rack up more years of experience, are more likely to ask for pay rises, work more when they have kids (where it's the opposite for women), and so on.
This idea that women are 'coerced' into certain career paths is rather hard to test and may well just be an excuse. In countries such as Finland and Sweden, gender roles are discouraged during schooling and strong efforts are made to avoid coercing students into gendered career paths. However, there's still more career segregation in those nations than in places like India and Taiwan.
Even so, career choice is not the biggest influence. In spite of career segregation, women under 30 earn around the same as men do on average, as do women who don't marry or have kids. It largely boils down to how men and women prioritize their lifestyle choices. Job satisfaction for women also tends to be higher.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by StrawbAri
[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDj_bN0L8XM[/video]
Maybe employers think men are worth the extra investment so are happy to pay them more. That can be based on sexism.
Also comparing different professions is fair if you want to critic how resources are shared between different professions/classes and in the case of feminism, gender, in society. Especially when you consider that a lot of feminism is left wing.
Basically the guy in that video is way to self assured of his logical greatness when what is in reality a very squishy totally not-hard-science subject and he is just on one 'side' of the debate. You can only be that certain in you correctness if you are making a video explaining why people who think the earth is flat are wrong.
(edited 8 years ago)
Some Engineering courses have actually drastically lowered their entry requirements for females to actually encourage more to join.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Maybe employers think men are worth the extra investment so are happy to pay them more. That can be based on sexism.
Also comparing different professions is fair if you want to critic how resources are shared between different professions/classes and in the case of feminism, gender, in society. Especially when you consider that a lot of feminism is left wing.
Basically the guy in that video is way to self assured of his logical greatness when what is in reality a very squishy totally not-hard-science subject and he is just on one 'side' of the debate. You can only be that certain in you correctness if you are making a video explaining why people who think the earth is flat are wrong.
Also comparing different professions is fair if you want to critic how resources are shared between different professions/classes and in the case of feminism, gender, in society. Especially when you consider that a lot of feminism is left wing.
Basically the guy in that video is way to self assured of his logical greatness when what is in reality a very squishy totally not-hard-science subject and he is just on one 'side' of the debate. You can only be that certain in you correctness if you are making a video explaining why people who think the earth is flat are wrong.
What I want to see are stats that compare the salaries of a men and women(who have no kids/family attachment and have not taken any maternity leave) working in the same industry, at the same level.
I get what you mean in your last point though. I just think more studies should be carried out. The wage gap myth is actually something we can prove right/wrong.
Original post by StrawbAri
What I want to see are stats that compare the salaries of a men and women(who have no kids/family attachment and have not taken any maternity leave) working in the same industry, at the same level.
I get what you mean in your last point though. I just think more studies should be carried out. The wage gap myth is actually something we can prove right/wrong.
I get what you mean in your last point though. I just think more studies should be carried out. The wage gap myth is actually something we can prove right/wrong.
My point is that we can't!
It's actually illegal (in the UK) to pay a women less than a man in the same job with the same requirements.
It is down to the choice of job, whether it's part-time or full time and how many extra hours is spent in the job. Also, women tend to choose more flexible jobs which allows them to have a family if they want to (as a majority of women have children some point in their life). Which also explains the lack of female CEOs.
It is down to the choice of job, whether it's part-time or full time and how many extra hours is spent in the job. Also, women tend to choose more flexible jobs which allows them to have a family if they want to (as a majority of women have children some point in their life). Which also explains the lack of female CEOs.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
My point is that we can't!
If we can't then how will we go about fixing it? Do we just carry on debating it? Lots of people are of the opinion that it isn't real so they won't change their wages (unless the government makes them) and that wouldn't be fair to women if the wage gap actually is real.
So this is just going to end up like the abortion debate
What is your opinion though? Do you think the wage gap is real?
Original post by StrawbAri
If we can't then how will we go about fixing it?
Politics innit. My faction need to try and find ways of changing the world and human society in the way would like it to be.
Sorry but most of life is like that. We can not 'test' most of it. The sphere of science is slowly growing but the vast majority of the stuff our minds think about lie outside that sphere.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
My point is that we can't!
Equal pay for equal work.
If you do the same job, you deserve the same pay, regardless of gender. Yes,there are hurdles for getting into the profession ~ girls in science, say, and boys in nursing or whatever ~ but even in these industries there is different wages, for instance female managers get paid less that male managers for identical work. That's the problem
If you do the same job, you deserve the same pay, regardless of gender. Yes,there are hurdles for getting into the profession ~ girls in science, say, and boys in nursing or whatever ~ but even in these industries there is different wages, for instance female managers get paid less that male managers for identical work. That's the problem
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds
The fact is we're starting from an incorrect premise.
The fact is we're starting from an incorrect premise.
Original post by loomynarty
Some Engineering courses have actually drastically lowered their entry requirements for females to actually encourage more to join.
I hate things like this. Just like scholarships just for one gender. If someone is good enough, let them in. Isn't it far more sexist to suggest one gender can't make it without it being made easy for them?
If they want to encourage one side, then this needs to be done via career fairs, schools etc.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by TeaAndSugar
I hate things like this. Just like scholarships just for one gender. If someone is good enough, let them in. Isn't it far more sexist to suggest one gender can't make it without it being made easy for them?
If they want to encourage one side, then this needs to be done via career fairs, schools etc.
If they want to encourage one side, then this needs to be done via career fairs, schools etc.
Yeah a friend of mine went to an engineering open day and apparently some course that needed A* were willing to accepting B/A grade female students:/ as the male to female ratio at that particular place was like 15:1...
Original post by Dandaman1
Even within specific career areas, men and women have different preferences and behaviors. Men work more hours on average, more overtime, are less lilely to switch career and retrain, they rack up more years of experience, are more likely to ask for pay rises, work more when they have kids (where it's the opposite for women), and so on.
This idea that women are 'coerced' into certain career paths is rather hard to test and may well just be an excuse. In countries such as Finland and Sweden, gender roles are discouraged during schooling and strong efforts are made to avoid coercing students into gendered career paths. However, there's still more career segregation in those nations than in places like India and Taiwan.
Even so, career choice is not the biggest influence. In spite of career segregation, women under 30 earn around the same as men do on average, as do women who don't marry or have kids. It largely boils down to how men and women prioritize their lifestyle choices. Job satisfaction for women also tends to be higher.
This idea that women are 'coerced' into certain career paths is rather hard to test and may well just be an excuse. In countries such as Finland and Sweden, gender roles are discouraged during schooling and strong efforts are made to avoid coercing students into gendered career paths. However, there's still more career segregation in those nations than in places like India and Taiwan.
Even so, career choice is not the biggest influence. In spite of career segregation, women under 30 earn around the same as men do on average, as do women who don't marry or have kids. It largely boils down to how men and women prioritize their lifestyle choices. Job satisfaction for women also tends to be higher.
You're absolutely right, but you're wasting your time. Feminists are never going to accept this because it means they can't play the victim.
Original post by StrawbAri
[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDj_bN0L8XM[/video]
Beat me to it!
Original post by loomynarty
Let's face it , the reason men earn a lot more on average is because they go into higher paid industries, Finance, Engineering and some dangerous but lucrative manual jobs, where as women tend to take up jobs in less paying industries. So if these women are choosing a career that they want and the know that they arent well paid... Why do people still complain about income inequality (in developed countries where women have the choice ). Am i missing something ?
The whole pay gap rubbish that feminists love was explained away ages ago
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