The Feminist Approach to Men's Issues (Toxic Masculinity)
It seems common for feminists to rebut the idea of the need for mens rights activism etc. on the grounds of all gender inequality and issues somehow being in the remit of feminism. Well okay this is great isn't it? Feminists are giving a **** about mens issues and want to help out, that's awesome right? ... right?
I'd say no. The feminist solution to men's issues seems broadly to be to make men more like women. Their goals seem to broadly be along the lines of allowing men to dress more feminine, or to allow men to express their emotions (except when they do they're then met with things like #maletears) or just generally to exhibit more feminine traits whilst demonising the masculine ones (toxic masculinity anybody?).
There is never a concerted effort to take mens issues seriously. Mens issues are either put on the back burner compared to womens issues (even when those issues are equally severe in magnitude to those women face: see sentencing disparity, high suicide rate to name but two), or they're just used as means to further an overarching feminist agenda of demonising masculinity as outlined in the paragraph above.
My personal view? I don't want feminism hijacking mens issues. I would very like feminists to help out in dealing with them, but men's issues aren't a subset of feminism, they're not side issues that need to be dealt with in dismantling the patriarchy, they're real important issues in and of themselves and should be treat as such.
I'd say no. The feminist solution to men's issues seems broadly to be to make men more like women. Their goals seem to broadly be along the lines of allowing men to dress more feminine, or to allow men to express their emotions (except when they do they're then met with things like #maletears) or just generally to exhibit more feminine traits whilst demonising the masculine ones (toxic masculinity anybody?).
There is never a concerted effort to take mens issues seriously. Mens issues are either put on the back burner compared to womens issues (even when those issues are equally severe in magnitude to those women face: see sentencing disparity, high suicide rate to name but two), or they're just used as means to further an overarching feminist agenda of demonising masculinity as outlined in the paragraph above.
My personal view? I don't want feminism hijacking mens issues. I would very like feminists to help out in dealing with them, but men's issues aren't a subset of feminism, they're not side issues that need to be dealt with in dismantling the patriarchy, they're real important issues in and of themselves and should be treat as such.
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I would agree. Do you have some sort of question?
You realise toxic masculinity is contributing the men have mental health problems?
Why are the majority of MRAs only talking about the rights of white cis het abled men? Why is there so little discussion of gay men and men of colour? Why are MRAs never talking about trans men or disabled men?
Why are the majority of MRAs only talking about the rights of white cis het abled men? Why is there so little discussion of gay men and men of colour? Why are MRAs never talking about trans men or disabled men?
Original post by SmallTownGirl
You realise toxic masculinity is contributing the men have mental health problems?
Why are the majority of MRAs only talking about the rights of white cis het abled men? Why is there so little discussion of gay men and men of colour? Why are MRAs never talking about trans men or disabled men?
Why are the majority of MRAs only talking about the rights of white cis het abled men? Why is there so little discussion of gay men and men of colour? Why are MRAs never talking about trans men or disabled men?
Toxic masculinity is not a real thing. It's a phrase coined by radfems to demonise males.
Original post by BhagwanNoBhool
Toxic masculinity is not a real thing. It's a phrase coined by radfems to demonise males.
Yes it is. I'm mentally ill. I know the impact not being about to talk about struggling with my mental health had on my mental health. I know enough men who have or have had mental health problems who have been told that being ill is 'unmanly'; who have been told to 'man-up' when they opened up about how they were feeling; who lost ALL their male friends after telling people they were diagnosed with a mental health problem because they weren't 'real men' and their friends didn't want to be friends with a 'pussy'.
Toxic masculinity hurts men. It's hurt men that I love. Feminism doesn't seek to 'destroy masculinity', it seeks to create a world where individual men define masculinity themselves in a way that is healthy. It wants men to say that having emotions isn't 'unmasculine'. That trans men can live in a world where they feel masculine even when they're menstruating. It wants disabled men to feel masculine even if they can't lift weights or have a job to 'provide' for their family.
Original post by SmallTownGirl
Yes it is. I'm mentally ill. I know the impact not being about to talk about struggling with my mental health had on my mental health. I know enough men who have or have had mental health problems who have been told that being ill is 'unmanly'; who have been told to 'man-up' when they opened up about how they were feeling; who lost ALL their male friends after telling people they were diagnosed with a mental health problem because they weren't 'real men' and their friends didn't want to be friends with a 'pussy'.
Toxic masculinity hurts men. It's hurt men that I love. Feminism doesn't seek to 'destroy masculinity', it seeks to create a world where individual men define masculinity themselves in a way that is healthy. It wants men to say that having emotions isn't 'unmasculine'. That trans men can live in a world where they feel masculine even when they're menstruating. It wants disabled men to feel masculine even if they can't lift weights or have a job to 'provide' for their family.
Toxic masculinity hurts men. It's hurt men that I love. Feminism doesn't seek to 'destroy masculinity', it seeks to create a world where individual men define masculinity themselves in a way that is healthy. It wants men to say that having emotions isn't 'unmasculine'. That trans men can live in a world where they feel masculine even when they're menstruating. It wants disabled men to feel masculine even if they can't lift weights or have a job to 'provide' for their family.
Do not think that the way women view these traits as unattractive may be the cause, as opposed to other males? Think about it, why do men wish to feel more masculine and more manly? It isn't masculinity causing this toxicity tbh.
But obviously that's all wrong because it goes against the feminist rhetoric. Women can't ever be responisble for anything, only men can cause problems in society.
Original post by SmallTownGirl
Why are the majority of MRAs only talking about the rights of white cis het abled men? Why is there so little discussion of gay men and men of colour? Why are MRAs never talking about trans men or disabled men?
Why are the majority of MRAs only talking about the rights of white cis het abled men? Why is there so little discussion of gay men and men of colour? Why are MRAs never talking about trans men or disabled men?
I dont get why you think they only talk about white men. Thats you just imposing your own racism & bigotry onto them.
Same with heterosexuality and disabilities, they deal with mens issues not covered by other groups, and would most likely discuss male disabilty if they were disproportionately suffering.
Its your intolerance that assumes non white, homosexual disabled men cant face the same issues as white, heterosexual able bodied men.
Original post by SmallTownGirl
only talking about the rights of white cis het abled men?
Oooh this group is more oppressed than that group, but that group has an x+1 privilege therefore they are cis het homo able queer xer.
Original post by BhagwanNoBhool
Do not think that the way women view these traits as unattractive may be the cause, as opposed to other males? Think about it, why do men wish to feel more masculine and more manly? It isn't masculinity causing this toxicity tbh.
But obviously that's all wrong because it goes against the feminist rhetoric. Women can't ever be responisble for anything, only men can cause problems in society.
But obviously that's all wrong because it goes against the feminist rhetoric. Women can't ever be responisble for anything, only men can cause problems in society.
From what I know of the experiences of the men in my life, they were almost exclusively told by other men that they're mental health problems were 'unmanly'. When we talk about toxic masculinity we are not saying masculinity itself is inherently toxic, we are saying that the way masculinity is currently framed is harmful to men.
Original post by Farm_Ecology
I dont get why you think they only talk about white men. Thats you just imposing your own racism & bigotry onto them.
Same with heterosexuality and disabilities, they deal with mens issues not covered by other groups, and would most likely discuss male disabilty if they were disproportionately suffering.
Its your intolerance that assumes non white, homosexual disabled men cant face the same issues as white, heterosexual able bodied men.
Same with heterosexuality and disabilities, they deal with mens issues not covered by other groups, and would most likely discuss male disabilty if they were disproportionately suffering.
Its your intolerance that assumes non white, homosexual disabled men cant face the same issues as white, heterosexual able bodied men.
I know enough men who are trans/gay/mentally ill/neurodivergent/gender non-conforming etc. who are aware that MRAs are not advocating for their rights. And guess what? Often these are the men most harmed by gender stereotypes and by toxic masculinity.
Original post by SmallTownGirl
From what I know of the experiences of the men in my life, they were almost exclusively told by other men that they're mental health problems were 'unmanly'. When we talk about toxic masculinity we are not saying masculinity itself is inherently toxic, we are saying that the way masculinity is currently framed is harmful to men.
How old are you out of interest? Maybe it's an era thing, because I'm 20 and I've very rarely encountered any man who's called someone else unmanly in a non joking way. Even the most socially conservative people I know would be totally out of character saying this, especially in response to mental health issues.
The only times I've heard manliness called into question are those dudebro gym types who make up like <5% of men and basic-ass women talking about attraction saying they want someone who takes the initiative, who is taller then them, dominant, earns more then them, basically all the traditional male characteristics.
Original post by BhagwanNoBhool
Toxic masculinity is not a real thing. It's a phrase coined by radfems to demonise males.
Toxic masculinity isn't a way to say men are toxic, but that men feeling they have to live up to a certain standard of masculinity whether they like it or not is toxic to their mental health etc.
Its not about making men act in traditionally feminine roles, it's about telling them that it's okay if they want to.
They don't have to live up to a toxic standard of masculinity.
They don't have to live up to a toxic standard of masculinity.
Original post by SmallTownGirl
I know enough men who are trans/gay/mentally ill/neurodivergent/gender non-conforming etc. who are aware that MRAs are not advocating for their rights. And guess what? Often these are the men most harmed by gender stereotypes and by toxic masculinity.
I know enough men who are trans/gay/mentally ill/neurodivergent/gender non-conforming etc. who are aware that MRAs are not advocating for their rights. And guess what? Often these are the men most harmed by gender stereotypes and by toxic masculinity.
I dont see why you knowing these men is at all relevant. Either way, issues that hetero white able bodied are also faced by other men, despite what you might think.
Original post by minimarshmallow
Its not about making men act in traditionally feminine roles, it's about telling them that it's okay if they want to.
They don't have to live up to a toxic standard of masculinity.
They don't have to live up to a toxic standard of masculinity.
Exactly, I completely agree, it's not about telling men to become more feminine or less masculine, it's telling them it's okay to be whatever they want and living their lives the way they want and not let the traditional standards of being masculine and macho and not showing emotions pressure or affect them, these standards are detrimental to male mental health and probably a large part of why male suicide rates are so much higher than female suicide rates.
Original post by SmallTownGirl
You realise toxic masculinity is contributing the men have mental health problems?
Why are the majority of MRAs only talking about the rights of white cis het abled men? Why is there so little discussion of gay men and men of colour? Why are MRAs never talking about trans men or disabled men?
Why are the majority of MRAs only talking about the rights of white cis het abled men? Why is there so little discussion of gay men and men of colour? Why are MRAs never talking about trans men or disabled men?
Interesting that I never said I was referring to white straight cis het abled (etc.) men. I simply referred to men. You're the one who inferred that though (in the absence of implication) ... which probably says more about you than it does me.
But ... more to the point I suppose, there wouldn't be any issue per say with specifically advocating for white cis het abled male rights where they are deficient would there? Why is that necessarily a problem?
But in a more reasonable sense what is trying to be addressed is the issues that men face as a result of their being men. Now ... I don't doubt that there are going to be some issues that, for example, black men face uniquely that isn't simply related to being black or male but a combination of the two (inter sectionalism I believe is the buzzword), but it doesn't get in the way of the fact that the big mens issues are mens issues. They often transcend issues of race, sexuality etc.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by SmallTownGirl
You realise toxic masculinity is contributing the men have mental health problems?
Why are the majority of MRAs only talking about the rights of white cis het abled men? Why is there so little discussion of gay men and men of colour? Why are MRAs never talking about trans men or disabled men?
Why are the majority of MRAs only talking about the rights of white cis het abled men? Why is there so little discussion of gay men and men of colour? Why are MRAs never talking about trans men or disabled men?
Toxic masculinity is total nonsense.
In modern society anything which even resembles traditional masculinity is shamed, attacked and pathologized. The most apt example of this and the damage it causes is of Elliot Rodger who was totally robbed of his masculinity and so lashed out as an attempted achieve some sort of natural equilibrium in the unnatural world leftist freaks and other tumblrina weirdos have created.
Original post by limetang
Interesting that I never said I was referring to white straight cis het abled (etc.) men. I simply referred to men. You're the one who inferred that though (in the absence of implication) ... which probably says more about you than it does me.
But ... more to the point I suppose, there wouldn't be any issue per say with specifically advocating for white cis het abled male rights where they are deficient would there? Why is that necessarily a problem?
But ... more to the point I suppose, there wouldn't be any issue per say with specifically advocating for white cis het abled male rights where they are deficient would there? Why is that necessarily a problem?
If your activism only includes and helps the most privileged members of a group you claims to be supporting then it isn't really activism at all. If you ignore the different issues more marginalised members of that group face then you are ignoring their existence.
Original post by minimarshmallow
Its not about making men act in traditionally feminine roles, it's about telling them that it's okay if they want to.
They don't have to live up to a toxic standard of masculinity.
They don't have to live up to a toxic standard of masculinity.
The reality doesn't match this.
I take absolutely no issue with people who do not conform, those who have gender reassignment, those who are transvestites, I fully accept their choices, they are harmless, but modern society doesn't teach men to be men and only be men, it's the quite the opposite. From the moment boys are sent to state schools, their ballsiness is trained out of them, any displays of traditional masculinity are met with disapproval, too rough, too violent, too bigoted. I read that in California, the boys had a day where they had to wear dresses, have handbags and do a catwalk. If my son told me that's what he wanted to do, I would support him, family and love over everything, but it wasn't their free choice, it was state-sponsored.
In the modern Western world, traditional masculinity is the only masculinity which is not allowed.
Original post by Mahmoud X
The reality doesn't match this.
I take absolutely no issue with people who do not conform, those who have gender reassignment, those who are transvestites, I fully accept their choices, they are harmless, but modern society doesn't teach men to be men and only be men, it's the quite the opposite. From the moment boys are sent to state schools, their ballsiness is trained out of them, any displays of traditional masculinity are met with disapproval, too rough, too violent, too bigoted. I read that in California, the boys had a day where they had to wear dresses, have handbags and do a catwalk. If my son told me that's what he wanted to do, I would support him, family and love over everything, but it wasn't their free choice, it was state-sponsored.
In the modern Western world, traditional masculinity is the only masculinity which is not allowed.
I take absolutely no issue with people who do not conform, those who have gender reassignment, those who are transvestites, I fully accept their choices, they are harmless, but modern society doesn't teach men to be men and only be men, it's the quite the opposite. From the moment boys are sent to state schools, their ballsiness is trained out of them, any displays of traditional masculinity are met with disapproval, too rough, too violent, too bigoted. I read that in California, the boys had a day where they had to wear dresses, have handbags and do a catwalk. If my son told me that's what he wanted to do, I would support him, family and love over everything, but it wasn't their free choice, it was state-sponsored.
In the modern Western world, traditional masculinity is the only masculinity which is not allowed.
How many times do we hear 'boys will be boys' said about children who hit their siblings/friends/classmates? How many parents do you hear saying they'd never buy their son a doll or a dress or let them go to ballet classes? How many times are girls labelled 'bossy' for acting the same way that gets boys called a 'natural leader'? These things are happening constantly. We force gender roles on children and it harms everyone.
Original post by SmallTownGirl
How many times do we hear 'boys will be boys' said about children who hit their siblings/friends/classmates? How many parents do you hear saying they'd never buy their son a doll or a dress or let them go to ballet classes? How many times are girls labelled 'bossy' for acting the same way that gets boys called a 'natural leader'? These things are happening constantly. We force gender roles on children and it harms everyone.
'Boys will be boys' is an irritating tautology rather than a symptom of widespread toxic masculinity.
There is a clear difference between genuinely bossy people and natural born leaders, you can't undermine criticism of bad female leaders by claiming every example of someone calling BS on the irritating office fascist is sexism, at the same time, I have considered other guys to be bossy, domineering and completely incompetent and I would tell them. It's not sexism, but at the same time, not every criticism of a women is born out of lack of respect for her gender.
(edited 8 years ago)
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