Does rape culture exist? (POLL)
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Original post by StrawbAri
I don't think there are many places outside the west that have a 'rape culture' so to speak. A rape culture implies that the society condones rape and aside from the odd ultra Islamic country, I don't think that such a place exists. Rape is against the law in most countries
Some people mention less developed parts of Africa but it's not so much of the issue of rape being part of the culture but the fact that because of lack of development in the legal/security sectors people are more likely to get away with most crime (including rape). It's not that people in the society actually actively condone rape or think rape is okay in any situation.
It's like saying a murder culture exists in less developed parts of the world because there's a higher rate of murder in those countries.
Some people mention less developed parts of Africa but it's not so much of the issue of rape being part of the culture but the fact that because of lack of development in the legal/security sectors people are more likely to get away with most crime (including rape). It's not that people in the society actually actively condone rape or think rape is okay in any situation.
It's like saying a murder culture exists in less developed parts of the world because there's a higher rate of murder in those countries.
Have you actively looked into this or have you just came up with it at the top of your head? I have a feeling it's the latter.
Firstly, you say that in most countries, rape is illegal. Yes, that is true. But what you aren't considering, is how greatly the definition of rape differs between cultures. For example, many cultures don't consider marital rape. So yes they have laws against rape, but what they consider rape not to be, differs greatly to us. Countries which don't count marital rape as a criminal offense for example, is Afghanistan, Egypt, Bangladesh, India, Iraq, Jordan, Sudia Arabia, the United Emirates and many more. So how can you be so sure, that marital rape in these countries is actively opposed and shunned, when it's not even considered rape?
Like I say, if you apply our definition of rape, many cultures do actively condone sexual abuse/ rape of women. For example, many third world countries encourage child marriage. So yes, sexual intercourse with an 11 year old whose parents happily consented to a wedding is not considered rape in those countries. But in ours? Most definitely. The incidences of child marriages are extremely high in broad areas in Africa and Asia. So do you think that the culture in these countries actively opposes child marriage like our country, or do you think that it's condoned/ normalised?
And then on top of this, there are countries which do explicitly condone sexual violence and rape. You only need to do a quick Google search, and all the information is there for you.
I completey disagree with your very narrow view, that rape is as despised in other cultures as it is in ours, and is only an issue arising from lack of security due to poverty. I can't begin to describe how short sighted that is. It is hugely a social issue, a reflection of deeply ingrained attitudes, values and social norms within cultures. Please, do some research into this before you make such a strong statement. You have no idea.
Original post by Twinpeaks
Have you actively looked into this or have you just came up with it at the top of your head? I have a feeling it's the latter.
Firstly, you say that in most countries, rape is illegal. Yes, that is true. But what you aren't considering, is how greatly the definition of rape differs between cultures. For example, many cultures don't consider marital rape. So yes they have laws against rape, but what they consider rape not to be, differs greatly to us. Countries which don't count marital rape as a criminal offense for example, is Afghanistan, Egypt, Bangladesh, India, Iraq, Jordan, Sudia Arabia, the United Emirates and many more. So how can you be so sure, that marital rape in these countries is actively opposed and shunned, when it's not even considered rape?
Like I say, if you apply our definition of rape, many cultures do actively condone sexual abuse/ rape of women. For example, many third world countries encourage child marriage. So yes, sexual intercourse with an 11 year old whose parents happily consented to a wedding is not considered rape in those countries. But in ours? Most definitely. The incidences of child marriages are extremely high in broad areas in Africa and Asia. So do you think that the culture in these countries actively opposes child marriage like our country, or do you think that it's condoned/ normalised?
And then on top of this, there are countries which do explicitly condone sexual violence and rape. You only need to do a quick Google search, and all the information is there for you.
I completey disagree with your very narrow view, that rape is as despised in other cultures as it is in ours, and is only an issue arising from lack of security due to poverty. I can't begin to describe how short sighted that is. It is hugely a social issue, a reflection of deeply ingrained attitudes, values and social norms within cultures. Please, do some research into this before you make such a strong statement. You have no idea.
Firstly, you say that in most countries, rape is illegal. Yes, that is true. But what you aren't considering, is how greatly the definition of rape differs between cultures. For example, many cultures don't consider marital rape. So yes they have laws against rape, but what they consider rape not to be, differs greatly to us. Countries which don't count marital rape as a criminal offense for example, is Afghanistan, Egypt, Bangladesh, India, Iraq, Jordan, Sudia Arabia, the United Emirates and many more. So how can you be so sure, that marital rape in these countries is actively opposed and shunned, when it's not even considered rape?
Like I say, if you apply our definition of rape, many cultures do actively condone sexual abuse/ rape of women. For example, many third world countries encourage child marriage. So yes, sexual intercourse with an 11 year old whose parents happily consented to a wedding is not considered rape in those countries. But in ours? Most definitely. The incidences of child marriages are extremely high in broad areas in Africa and Asia. So do you think that the culture in these countries actively opposes child marriage like our country, or do you think that it's condoned/ normalised?
And then on top of this, there are countries which do explicitly condone sexual violence and rape. You only need to do a quick Google search, and all the information is there for you.
I completey disagree with your very narrow view, that rape is as despised in other cultures as it is in ours, and is only an issue arising from lack of security due to poverty. I can't begin to describe how short sighted that is. It is hugely a social issue, a reflection of deeply ingrained attitudes, values and social norms within cultures. Please, do some research into this before you make such a strong statement. You have no idea.
Not sure why you're attacking me like this when it's pretty much just a misunderstanding.
Of course I didn't pull this out of thin air. I live in Africa. I have first hand knowledge of what happens here. I speak to people, I watch the news. I've seen lynch mobs against rapists, I've seen cases where rapists were castrated by the family of the victims. I've seen marches against rape. Child marriage cases are blown up on social media so much so that the Islamic community in my country is despised as a result. No one condones rape in Christian Africa. It is not a part of our culture.
In my post I stated aside from Islamic countries that have cultures that condone things like violence against women, the idea that rape culture is a thing in every single developing country outside the western world is simply not true. And most of the countries you mentioned are Islamic anyway.
You can't say that rape is part of Nigerian, Ghanaian, Kenyan, Venezuelan, South African, Senegalese, Botswanan etc cultures.
Original post by Bornblue
Yet you use the same survey to support your point that many men suffer domestic violence.
OH FFS. You really are slow.
The crime of rape is not just a legal phenomenon. It's an act, as a well as crime. It's like saying if someone is found 'not guilty' for murder that the victim has not been killed.
Rape is both an act and a crime.
It highlights the problems in the law.
You struggle to grasp the most basic concepts and you're a proven liar.
OH FFS. You really are slow.
The crime of rape is not just a legal phenomenon. It's an act, as a well as crime. It's like saying if someone is found 'not guilty' for murder that the victim has not been killed.
Rape is both an act and a crime.
It highlights the problems in the law.
You struggle to grasp the most basic concepts and you're a proven liar.
You're yet to show me quoting the survey, you simply made a quote up and posted a hyperlink that doesn't lead to me saying what you've claimed.
Original post by Bornblue
If someone has been made to have sex against their will, when they have not consented, that is rape.
A legal conviction doesn't change the act that's happened.
A legal conviction doesn't change the act that's happened.
That is factually incorrect. If the other party had reasonable belief in consent there's no rape. Hence why data from the question 'did someone penetrate your mouth, vagina or anus without your consent' doesn't give you information about rape.
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Original post by Bornblue
Yet you use the same survey to support your point that many men suffer domestic violence.
OH FFS. You really are slow.
The crime of rape is not just a legal phenomenon. It's an act, as a well as crime. It's like saying if someone is found 'not guilty' for murder that the victim has not been killed.
If someone has been made to have sex against their will, when they have not consented, that is rape.
A legal conviction doesn't change the act that's happened.
Rape is both an act and a crime.
It highlights the problems in the law.
You struggle to grasp the most basic concepts and you're a proven liar.
OH FFS. You really are slow.
The crime of rape is not just a legal phenomenon. It's an act, as a well as crime. It's like saying if someone is found 'not guilty' for murder that the victim has not been killed.
If someone has been made to have sex against their will, when they have not consented, that is rape.
A legal conviction doesn't change the act that's happened.
Rape is both an act and a crime.
It highlights the problems in the law.
You struggle to grasp the most basic concepts and you're a proven liar.
I think what he's getting at is that the surveyors are just taking the respondents' word for it, without evidence, without cross-examination, without hearing the other side, etc. Plus, sex often involves alcohol, and we make the assumption that the respondent can actually remember what happened correctly.
But yes, these are certainly problems with most crime surveys we take for granted. However, rape is one of those things very easily affected by context, perspective, memory, and so on. A guy could have sex with a girl and believe it was totally consensual, when from her perspective she doesn't believe it was. And then we're left with one person's word against another. This is very common, and one of the reasons it's so hard to prosecute and really build a picture of what actually happened. But we'll take a checked box on a questionnaire as gospel. (Again, like I said, this issue exists for other crimes on surveys, which is why we should always take these things with a pinch of salt).
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Dandaman1
I think what he's getting at is that the surveyors are just taking the respondents' word for it, without evidence, without cross-examination, without hearing the other side, etc. Plus, sex often involves alcohol, and we make the assumption that the respondent can actually remember what happened correctly.
But yes, these are certainly problems with most crime surveys we take for granted. However, rape is one of those things very easily affected by context, perspective, memory, and so on. A guy could have sex with a girl and believe it was totally consensual, when from her perspective she doesn't believe it was. And then we're left with one person's word against another. This is very common, and one of the reasons it's so hard to prosecute and really build a picture of what actually happened. But we'll take a checked box on a questionnaire as gospel. (Again, like I said, this issue exists for other crimes on surveys, which is why we should always take these things with a pinch of salt).
But yes, these are certainly problems with most crime surveys we take for granted. However, rape is one of those things very easily affected by context, perspective, memory, and so on. A guy could have sex with a girl and believe it was totally consensual, when from her perspective she doesn't believe it was. And then we're left with one person's word against another. This is very common, and one of the reasons it's so hard to prosecute and really build a picture of what actually happened. But we'll take a checked box on a questionnaire as gospel. (Again, like I said, this issue exists for other crimes on surveys, which is why we should always take these things with a pinch of salt).
Whilst I do think the survey is reliable I can afford others do not.
However what I cannot accept is others like him using the survey when it supports their point but saying it's unreliable when other side it.
The fact that tens of thousands of men and women feel that they are raped every year is deeply worrying.
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
Rape culture is essentially a society where there is a pervasive attitude that rape and sexual assault is acceptable. So frankly, anyone who argues that there is a rape culture in the Western world is a moron. In other areas (I'm thinking predominantly some middle eastern and african countries) there is most definitely a rape culture.
You know a society that thinks it's okay to rape people??? I mean I'm sure not every society deals with rapist as severely as should be but you think there's a society anyone can go around and casually brag about raping someone? Have you ever been to Africa or middle east?
Original post by dmz
You know a society that thinks it's okay to rape people??? I mean I'm sure not every society deals with rapist as severely as should be but you think there's a society anyone can go around and casually brag about raping someone? Have you ever been to Africa or middle east?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8107039.stm
This would rather suggest South Africa is such a country. Note the part where it says 'practices such as gang rape were common because they were considered a form of male bonding'. And certainly rape within marriage is considered acceptable in dozens of middle eastern and african countries.
I've been to both africa and the middle east as it happens, and during the welcoming talk the holidaymakers gave us at each was a warning for women especially, to not travel outside the confines of the hotels alone.
Ironically, your comment is more or less what I was getting at. 'Rape Culture' is a daft term to use to describe anything to do with how the West treats women, because it's such a misnomer when people use it to describe something which has little and less to do with actual rape.
Original post by Bornblue
Whilst I do think the survey is reliable I can afford others do not.
However what I cannot accept is others like him using the survey when it supports their point but saying it's unreliable when other side it.
The fact that tens of thousands of men and women feel that they are raped every year is deeply worrying.
However what I cannot accept is others like him using the survey when it supports their point but saying it's unreliable when other side it.
The fact that tens of thousands of men and women feel that they are raped every year is deeply worrying.
As I said in another response, remember, far fewer than that report being raped in the surveys (and technically they don't say "raped". People are actually less likely to say they were raped when the question is worded as such. What they report is penetration of an orifice without consent). Those larger numbers are estimates extrapolated from the results. Even in the official report it is said that the results shouldn't be assumed to be accurate. This was due in particular to the low response rate concerning sexual crimes in the last few surveys.
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8107039.stm
This would rather suggest South Africa is such a country. Note the part where it says 'practices such as gang rape were common because they were considered a form of male bonding'. And certainly rape within marriage is considered acceptable in dozens of middle eastern and african countries.
I've been to both africa and the middle east as it happens, and during the welcoming talk the holidaymakers gave us at each was a warning for women especially, to not travel outside the confines of the hotels alone.
Ironically, your comment is more or less what I was getting at. 'Rape Culture' is a daft term to use to describe anything to do with how the West treats women, because it's such a misnomer when people use it to describe something which has little and less to do with actual rape.
This would rather suggest South Africa is such a country. Note the part where it says 'practices such as gang rape were common because they were considered a form of male bonding'. And certainly rape within marriage is considered acceptable in dozens of middle eastern and african countries.
I've been to both africa and the middle east as it happens, and during the welcoming talk the holidaymakers gave us at each was a warning for women especially, to not travel outside the confines of the hotels alone.
Ironically, your comment is more or less what I was getting at. 'Rape Culture' is a daft term to use to describe anything to do with how the West treats women, because it's such a misnomer when people use it to describe something which has little and less to do with actual rape.
fair enough if you're actually informed.
Where im from in africa you would get physically castrated if you were a rapist.
South africa is a special case in africa tbh, there used to be women gang who go round raping men to infest them.
Having lots of rapist doesn't mean it's accepted. Wom
Original post by Dandaman1
As I said in another response, remember, far fewer than that report being raped in the surveys (and technically they don't say "raped". People are actually less likely to say they were raped when the question is worded as such. What they report is penetration of an orifice without consent). Those larger numbers are estimates extrapolated from the results. Even in the official report it is said that the results shouldn't be assumed to be accurate. This was due in particular to the low response rate concerning sexual crimes in the last few surveys.
The survey is generally regarded as the best we have for all crimes.
Yes there is a Margin of error, but the fact that so many tens of thousands of men and women feel they have been raped every year and feel like they cannot report it, is concerning.
We have to take the issue seriously, why so few alleged victims report it to the police, why so many cases drop out of the system etc.
Original post by dmz
fair enough if you're actually informed.
Where im from in africa you would get physically castrated if you were a rapist.
South africa is a special case in africa tbh, there used to be women gang who go round raping men to infest them.
Having lots of rapist doesn't mean it's accepted. Wom
Where im from in africa you would get physically castrated if you were a rapist.
South africa is a special case in africa tbh, there used to be women gang who go round raping men to infest them.
Having lots of rapist doesn't mean it's accepted. Wom
Hahaha I don't make a habit of gung-ho claims without any supporting evidence, lest I be called out on it
Note that the definition of a rape culture isn't a culture that accepts rape, but one where rape is pervasive and normalised. So just because the majority of people find it abhorrent doesn't mean there isn't a rape culture. If there is very high level of rape (pervasive) and it's such that people have gotten used to, or accepted, the fact that these high levels of rape will persist (normalised), then you have the makings of a rape culture.
I'm not sure that's true necessarily. In North Africa you have some very deeply Islamic states, and so things like rape inside marriage are condoned. And in some of the more central african countries which are ripe with tribal warfare, rape is commonplace as a means of celebrating the vanquishing of an opponent. Correct me if I'm wrong on either of those (my geography is a bit iffy at the best of times), but if I'm not mistaken then the issue is actually pretty widespread.
I certainly didn't claim rape was exclusively committed by men. I remember seeing something on the news about the issue of gangs of women abducting men from the side of the road into vans and raping them. It's a pervasive issue in south africa, moreso probably than any other country in the world.
See above. Presuming you agree all humans are essentially the same, if one country persistently has vastly higher rape statistics per capita than another, it stands to reason that there is something fundamentally wrong with the culture in that country.
Original post by tailred
Yes, the rape culture applies to countries such as India. Victims there openly get blamed for rape.
You have no idea what you are on about. You get the death penalty for rape and many people are against it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-24078339
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20863707
Original post by Bornblue
The survey is generally regarded as the best we have for all crimes.
Yes there is a Margin of error, but the fact that so many tens of thousands of men and women feel they have been raped every year and feel like they cannot report it, is concerning.
We have to take the issue seriously, why so few alleged victims report it to the police, why so many cases drop out of the system etc.
Yes there is a Margin of error, but the fact that so many tens of thousands of men and women feel they have been raped every year and feel like they cannot report it, is concerning.
We have to take the issue seriously, why so few alleged victims report it to the police, why so many cases drop out of the system etc.
The main issue is that rape and sexual assault are hard to prove. They often occur in private settings with no other witnesses. So people won't often go through the long legal process when it's unikely to achieve anything. Interestingly, however, the most common reason given by people for not reporting sexual crimes to the police is simply that they (the victim) didn't beleive the experience was serious enough to warrant reporting in the first place.
Original post by Dandaman1
The main issue is that rape and sexual assault are hard to prove. They often occur in private settings with no other witnesses. So people won't often go through the long legal process when it's unikely to achieve anything. Interestingly, however, the most common reason given by people for not reporting sexual crimes to the police is simply that they (the victim) didn't beleive the experience was serious enough to warrant reporting in the first place.
They are hard to prove but there's other factors. Often women and men are raped by partners or family members and feel under pressure not to report. Often police responded have been poor, often victims are treated poorly and made out to be liars etc. Often cps make decisions without meeting victims.
We have to take the issue seriously.
Original post by Bornblue
Whilst I do think the survey is reliable I can afford others do not.
However what I cannot accept is others like him using the survey when it supports their point but saying it's unreliable when other side it.
The fact that tens of thousands of men and women feel that they are raped every year is deeply worrying.
However what I cannot accept is others like him using the survey when it supports their point but saying it's unreliable when other side it.
The fact that tens of thousands of men and women feel that they are raped every year is deeply worrying.
You made up a quote where I was supposedly using the survey. Even if I had quoted it in the past, there's no reason I can't have done more research on it and changed my mind on it, so your point is irrelevant.
The survey doesn't let you come to the conclusion that people feel they were raped. If I had my mouth, anus or vagina penetrated without my consent that doesn't necessarily mean I was raped.
Original post by Bornblue
They are hard to prove but there's other factors. Often women and men are raped by partners or family members and feel under pressure not to report. Often police responded have been poor, often victims are treated poorly and made out to be liars etc. Often cps make decisions without meeting victims.
We have to take the issue seriously.
We have to take the issue seriously.
The CPS not meeting with a 'victim' isn't wrong. If the evidence doesn't exist they can't take the case forward, listening to someone pour their heart out can't change that.
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Original post by Underscore__
You made up a quote where I was supposedly using the survey. Even if I had quoted it in the past, there's no reason I can't have done more research on it and changed my mind on it, so your point is irrelevant.
The survey doesn't let you come to the conclusion that people feel they were raped. If I had my mouth, anus or vagina penetrated without my consent that doesn't necessarily mean I was raped.
The CPS not meeting with a 'victim' isn't wrong. If the evidence doesn't exist they can't take the case forward, listening to someone pour their heart out can't change that.
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The survey doesn't let you come to the conclusion that people feel they were raped. If I had my mouth, anus or vagina penetrated without my consent that doesn't necessarily mean I was raped.
The CPS not meeting with a 'victim' isn't wrong. If the evidence doesn't exist they can't take the case forward, listening to someone pour their heart out can't change that.
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It's not made up. I sent a link to the thread and your posts are numbers 117 and 122. You cite the bcs as a source.
You're a liar.
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Original post by Bornblue
It's not made up. I sent a link to the thread and your posts are numbers 117 and 122. You cite the bcs as a source.
You're a liar.
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You're a liar.
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Well like I said since then I've looked into it and realised its unreliable
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