If gender is a social construct, why do people need sex changes?
If gender is a social construct, why do people need sex changes?
It's not possible for someone to change their sex, and despite the Newspeak that pervades this subject, for the most part people are not "assigned" a sex, the doctors simply take a look and confirm what is patently obvious.
So, it's not possible to have a "sex change". It is possible to modify someone's biology to conform to the sexual characteristics linked to the opposite gender, but it seems for many people who do this, what they are actually doing is seeking additional physical markers to accompany their desire to adopt the opposite gender. I.e. you don't have people who want to have a "sex change" but continue acting and presenting themselves according to the gender that matches their sex.
To me this underlines the fact that this is indeed a disorder, and we should be looking at ways to cure it, not to cut up someone's body with scalpels. I have no problem at all with people adopting whatever gender they choose, gender roles are indeed a social construct. But sex is not.
I believe if we had more fluid gender, and perhaps better mental health treatment, people would not feel compelled to have their body mutilated and injected with hormones so that their physical characteristics match the gender they wish to adopt (an act which itself seems to confirm and support the idea that each sex has essential gender roles / characteristics / behaviour)
It's not possible for someone to change their sex, and despite the Newspeak that pervades this subject, for the most part people are not "assigned" a sex, the doctors simply take a look and confirm what is patently obvious.
So, it's not possible to have a "sex change". It is possible to modify someone's biology to conform to the sexual characteristics linked to the opposite gender, but it seems for many people who do this, what they are actually doing is seeking additional physical markers to accompany their desire to adopt the opposite gender. I.e. you don't have people who want to have a "sex change" but continue acting and presenting themselves according to the gender that matches their sex.
To me this underlines the fact that this is indeed a disorder, and we should be looking at ways to cure it, not to cut up someone's body with scalpels. I have no problem at all with people adopting whatever gender they choose, gender roles are indeed a social construct. But sex is not.
I believe if we had more fluid gender, and perhaps better mental health treatment, people would not feel compelled to have their body mutilated and injected with hormones so that their physical characteristics match the gender they wish to adopt (an act which itself seems to confirm and support the idea that each sex has essential gender roles / characteristics / behaviour)
(edited 7 years ago)
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Original post by AlexanderHam
x
I get so so so confused when it comes to this entire topic.
From what I understand,
Sex = XY / XX (and the countless chromosomal diseases)
Gender = What someone believes society associates with what they like.
Which is why it's quite interesting, because does this mean that Transgender people are sexist? If they are XY and they feel like they want to wear dresses, so they label themselves as "female" - is this sexist because they associate that only females can wear dresses?
It's such a confusing world...
The the level of lack of understanding shown by the OP is remarkable.
it might perhaps help if they understood sex, gender and sexuality and that gender identity and body / gender dysphoria / dysmorphia are seperate but related to Gender Indentity.
The OP then advocates the form of Torture known as conversion therapy - which is actually a form of enforcing gender roles on people , regarldess of the 'patently obvious' nature of the OPs confusion between sex and gender.
it might perhaps help if they understood sex, gender and sexuality and that gender identity and body / gender dysphoria / dysmorphia are seperate but related to Gender Indentity.
The OP then advocates the form of Torture known as conversion therapy - which is actually a form of enforcing gender roles on people , regarldess of the 'patently obvious' nature of the OPs confusion between sex and gender.
Original post by AshEntropy
I get so so so confused when it comes to this entire topic.
From what I understand,
Sex = XY / XX (and the countless chromosomal diseases)
Gender = What someone believes society associates with what they like.
Which is why it's quite interesting, because does this mean that Transgender people are sexist? If they are XY and they feel like they want to wear dresses, so they label themselves as "female" - is this sexist because they associate that only females can wear dresses?
It's such a confusing world...
From what I understand,
Sex = XY / XX (and the countless chromosomal diseases)
Gender = What someone believes society associates with what they like.
Which is why it's quite interesting, because does this mean that Transgender people are sexist? If they are XY and they feel like they want to wear dresses, so they label themselves as "female" - is this sexist because they associate that only females can wear dresses?
It's such a confusing world...
just ignore Gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia ...
are you asking questions or making statements ?
Zippy, you seem to be ignoring other potential solutions other than therapy. Probably because there is no viable solution.
Original post by MagnifiWilly
Zippy, you seem to be ignoring other potential solutions other than therapy. Probably because there is no viable solution.
really ?
Care to discuss WPATH and the NHS interim protocol ?
what are your thoughts on the current re-commissioning process for GICs in the U K ?
do you think the removal of the requirment of the local psych screening before GIC referral has had a law of unintended consequences effect ?
what's your view on the prescribing of hormones to under 16s rather than just using blockers between Tanner II and 16 ?
I would suggest starting a gun fight while holding a limp wet fish is perhaps not the best idea.
Conversion Therapy i s disproven in all it's purported clinical uses , it;s primary use is bey religious cults , either in indoctrination or as part of 'praying the gay away etc '
Conversion therapy meets the legal definition of Torture.
Original post by zippyRN
just ignore Gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia ...
are you asking questions or making statements ?
are you asking questions or making statements ?
I'm asking questions because I genuinely don't understand the topic at all :c
Original post by AshEntropy
I'm asking questions because I genuinely don't understand the topic at all :c
that's cool, ask questions , but realise that there are an awful lot of reactionary right wing transphobes and homophobes on TSR as is the nature of the so called libertarians and their blind spots over privilege.
I can point you in the direction of some good, current and clinically relevant resources if you are genuinely interested in the topic.
Original post by zippyRN
it might perhaps help if they understood sex, gender and sexuality and that gender identity and body / gender dysphoria / dysmorphia are seperate
it might perhaps help if they understood sex, gender and sexuality and that gender identity and body / gender dysphoria / dysmorphia are seperate
Your response suggests you don't understand the distinction between sex and gender. Although it's interesting you nonetheless adopted the standard bullying tactics of making that accusation against me.
The OP then advocates the form of Torture known as conversion therapy - which is actually a form of enforcing gender roles on people
You seem to be confused. I clearly say in my OP I am very much in favour of gender fluidity, and if we were more gender fluid maybe we wouldn't have people chopping up their bodies.
But the fact remains, to treat gender dysphoria with "sex reassignment surgery" essentially advances the idea that certain gender roles are fixed to each sex. If a person with this issue is saying, "I am a female inside", then that is biologically impossible. If they are saying, "I am a woman inside", then they are free to adopt the female gender (if it's all a social construct) and surely if there is no link between sex and gender roles then adopting the woman gender need not have anything to do with modifying one's external sex organs and biology.
As I said, has there ever been an example of someone who has sexual reassignment surgery and hormones to resemble the opposite sex, but continues to present as the same gender? Such a person would be consistent with the current position viz. gender being a social construct.
That's rhetorical, by the way. It's clear you have neither the knowledge the answer my question nor the goodwill necessary to engage genuinely
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by zippyRN
homophobes on TSR as is the nature of the so called libertarians and their blind spots over privilege.
Ahh, I'm a gay homophobe now, am I? That accusation passes far too easily through your lips
Original post by AshEntropy
Which is why it's quite interesting, because does this mean that Transgender people are sexist? If they are XY and they feel like they want to wear dresses, so they label themselves as "female" - is this sexist because they associate that only females can wear dresses?
Which is why it's quite interesting, because does this mean that Transgender people are sexist? If they are XY and they feel like they want to wear dresses, so they label themselves as "female" - is this sexist because they associate that only females can wear dresses?
Precisely, that's the point I was getting at. If they are having a sex change (i.e. to adapt their body to more resemble the opposite sex), why is it that actually it starts with wanting to be the opposite gender? It's not like there are people who want to have their body modified to resemble the opposite sex, but continue to present as the same gender (i.e. a man who has breast implants, hormones etc, but continues to dress as a man, call himself a manly name etc).
If transgender people are inextricably linking female sex organs and woman gender clothing / social roles, then aren't they asserting that sex and gender are essentially fixed to one another? And if that links into, as you say, wearing dresses and so on, isn't that a form of sexism?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by AlexanderHam
Precisely, that's the point I was getting at. If they are having a sex change (i.e. to adapt their body to more resemble the opposite sex), why is it that actually it starts with wanting to be the opposite gender? It's not like there are people who want to have their body modified to resemble the opposite sex, but continue to present as the same gender (i.e. a man who has breast implants, hormones etc, but continues to dress as a man, call himself a manly name etc).
If transgender people are inextricably linking female sex organs and woman gender clothing / social roles, then aren't they asserting that sex and gender are essentially fixed to one another? And if that links into, as you say, wearing dresses and so on, isn't that a form of sexism?
If transgender people are inextricably linking female sex organs and woman gender clothing / social roles, then aren't they asserting that sex and gender are essentially fixed to one another? And if that links into, as you say, wearing dresses and so on, isn't that a form of sexism?
It would seem so, it's so confusing
Original post by AlexanderHam
Your response suggests you don't understand the distinction between sex and gender. Although it's interesting you nonetheless adopted the standard bullying tactics of making that accusation against me.
I quite clearly have a far better understanding of it that you do , but as typical with TSR your arrogance and immaturity combined with a hearty dose of Dunning-Kruger means that you have chosen to engage without the slightest clue on whom you are dealing with.
You seem to be confused. I clearly say in my OP I am very much in favour of gender fluidity, and if we were more gender fluid maybe we wouldn't have people chopping up their bodies.
you seem to be conflating Gender Identity and the impact and effects of Gender Dysphoria
But the fact remains, to treat gender dysphoria with "sex reassignment surgery"
what's that , as it's not a term contained in WPATH or in common use among clinicians or the trans* community ...
essentially advances the idea that certain gender roles are fixed to each sex.
Where do you get that impression from ?
If a person with this issue is saying, "I am a female inside", then that is biologically impossible. If they are saying, "I am a woman inside", then they are free to adopt the female gender (if it's all a social construct) and surely if there is no link between sex and gender roles then adopting the woman gender need not have anything to do with modifying one's external sex organs and biology.
carry on demonstrating your utter lack of understanding on the topic and carry on conflating ' Gender Identity Disorder' as it is still legally/ clinically titled , with gender dysphoria / gender identiy related dysmorphia
As I said, has there ever been an example of someone who has sexual reassignment surgery and hormones to resemble the opposite sex, but continues to present as the same gender?
there are some people who have de transitioned post surgery , a number of whom were inadequately assessed prior to privately performed GRS , and some others who once they were no long the centre of attention realised that it's hard work to maintain a stereotypical presentation
That's rhetorical, by the way. It's clear you have neither the knowledge the answer my question nor the goodwill necessary to engage genuinely
the question is do you have the humility to listen to a clinician who is also an expert by experience ...
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by AshEntropy
It would seem so, it's so confusing
Agreed. I started to get interested in this in considering having kids, and I thought about what would happen if my kid were to have this issue. I wouldn't want them to mutilate themselves and chop up their body, they should be happy with the body they were born with and I would do whatever was in my power to help them be at peace and acceptance of their own physical form. If they wanted to start dressing / acting like the opposite gender... well, I wouldn't particular want that, but it's their choice. But when you get to the point of starting to slice yourself open with scalpels, it seems to me that surely there is a better way to treat what we all agree is not some non-standard identity or alternate sexuality, but a disorder that leads people to take drastic action against the biology they were born with
Original post by zippyRN
really ?
Care to discuss WPATH and the NHS interim protocol ?
what are your thoughts on the current re-commissioning process for GICs in the U K ?
do you think the removal of the requirment of the local psych screening before GIC referral has had a law of unintended consequences effect ?
what's your view on the prescribing of hormones to under 16s rather than just using blockers between Tanner II and 16 ?
I would suggest starting a gun fight while holding a limp wet fish is perhaps not the best idea.
Conversion Therapy i s disproven in all it's purported clinical uses , it;s primary use is bey religious cults , either in indoctrination or as part of 'praying the gay away etc '
Conversion therapy meets the legal definition of Torture.
Care to discuss WPATH and the NHS interim protocol ?
what are your thoughts on the current re-commissioning process for GICs in the U K ?
do you think the removal of the requirment of the local psych screening before GIC referral has had a law of unintended consequences effect ?
what's your view on the prescribing of hormones to under 16s rather than just using blockers between Tanner II and 16 ?
I would suggest starting a gun fight while holding a limp wet fish is perhaps not the best idea.
Conversion Therapy i s disproven in all it's purported clinical uses , it;s primary use is bey religious cults , either in indoctrination or as part of 'praying the gay away etc '
Conversion therapy meets the legal definition of Torture.
Oh my, I like a challenge!
I would like to discuss this. I'm not sure what we're discussing about it though, mind you.
Not particularly sure what the second passive aggressive dig is about. Need more information.
My view of any prescription of drugs is generally quite centered around the avoidance of them altogether where possible. Partially due to cost, partially due to morality. I'm not sure why you would use the Tanner scale to 16. Would be like comparing Fahrenheit to kilograms. Correct me if I'm wrong from my biology days, but the Tanner scale is an index of puberty development. Late deve- ah you know what, off topic. The point is that I disagree with drug based approaches for the most part, and to use said drugs on children whether they show signs of gender dysphoria or not feels like a breach of rights. In specific reference to replacement rather than blocking...
If you believe a drug-based approach is the correct one, then should the replacement of hormones to influence bodily development towards estrogen/testosterone production be your goal? Rather than produce what is essentially trapped development?
"I would suggest starting a gun fight while holding a limp wet fish is perhaps not the best idea." Good advice, not sure what that has to do with gender reassignment and all that good stuff though. Do trans people have problems with attending gun fights with limp wet fish? If so, this is a very real issue and needs addressing.
Final point, and the most significant one. You realise that these therapies are about as effective as 'reassignment' right? Those who go under the knife have increased suicidal tendencies - among a tiny demographic with an incredibly high rate of suicide - as a result of undergoing said surgery. In regards to drug based treatments, once again we have problems: Increased risks of cancer (claimed, although I remain doubtful), cardiovascular issues, and finally suicide. For a quick quote, and I'm fighting a cold here so if I over-quote do forgive me; "While one study found a 51% increase in mortality in transgender women compared to secular data, the differences were linked to factors unrelated to hormone therapy, including an increased incidence of suicide, AIDS, substance abuse, and cardiovascular disease."
That's just wonderful. A 51% increase but that's due to suicide, substance, and cardiovascular. AIDS even goes hand in hand with substance abuse too! So the drug based treatments are certainly changing the body, but they're making the owner of said body kill themselves or go down a road to killing themselves. Good times.
"Conversion Therapy i s disproven in all it's purported clinical uses , it;s primary use is bey religious cults , either in indoctrination or as part of 'praying the gay away etc"
Yeah, and I completely agree with you. In fact, If feel as if the treatment for those suffering have been neglected both medically and morally. It's a morally grey area which we try to justify as normal and healthy whilst overlooking mental instability and suicide rates. Do we know how many are due to bullying, is a drug based approach or a therapy based approach correct, what are the ramifications, what are the costs...
However, whilst I may be putting words in your mouth here I would stoop to claim that you're implying hormone and blocker treatments are the answer which just feels lazy.
Original post by AshEntropy
It would seem so, it's so confusing
Ignore the OP
the OP does not understand gender identity or gender dysphoria, yet has presented themselves as an expert who knows the answers ...
Neither does it appear that the OP actually is aware of the correct legal and clinical terminiology instead favourign the language of transphobes, TERFs and the right wing gutter press
I would be interested in the OPs critique ofthe current Interim Protocol and Of WPATH and also be interested to know what they have contributed to the earliest stages of current commissioning exercise ...
(edited 7 years ago)
I get where you're coming from with the sex assignment surgeries and all - but i fully support hormone therapies, by changing the trans person's body characteristics to the sex they want to identify with, it removes at least some or even all of the dysphoria they feel, and you can't just talk someone out of dysphoria. It's impossible.
Original post by AlexanderHam
Your response suggests you don't understand the distinction between sex and gender. Although it's interesting you nonetheless adopted the standard bullying tactics of making that accusation against me.
And your response suggests that you're woefully ignorant with regards to the topic. There's an often muddled distinction between sex (what your body physically is), gender (what your body thinks it is), and gender roles (pink is for girls, men should be manly, etc) when it comes to trans issues. A transexual person has a mismatch between their sex and gender. Gender roles (what people should really be rallying against) don't really come into play (although they can, in an attempt to uphold social norms and alleviate social dysphoria). It's possible to be a transwoman who loves machinery and working under cars, or a transman who prefers the female gender role side of things. The 'born the wrong gender' that people talk about is physically. If you were body swapped into someone two feet taller than yourself, you'd be left going 'wait, this isn't me', and it's the same feeling for trans people.
You seem to be confused. I clearly say in my OP I am very much in favour of gender fluidity, and if we were more gender fluid maybe we wouldn't have people chopping up their bodies.
Your transphobia is becoming evident. The issue has very little to do with gender roles, but more to do with gender dysmorphia. The first point to understand is that humans undeniably have physical differences between the male and female sex which are rooted in biology. This includes reproductive organs, secondary sex characteristics, and mental experiences (emotions, libido, etc). Yes, the brain can be physically different in subtle ways, and one of the ways this manifests is gender identity. Gender identity is the way someone experiences their own gender. Recent neuroscience studies suggest that gender identity is related to structures in the brain that develop before birth. When this experience doesn't match one's sex assigned at birth, it may cause gender dysphoria, a distressful feeling that is often accompanied by depression and anxiety. To relieve that distress, transgender people often seek to change their gender expression, including physically changing their bodies by taking hormones and/or undergoing surgery and/or behaving stereotypically as the other gender (as you pointed out). This is quite effective in reducing or eliminating gender dysphoria because it reduces the dissonance between the gender they experience internally and the gender they live as. The second point to understand is that while gender identity is a biological phenomenon, the gender roles associated with each gender are socially constructed. By gender roles, I mean the norms or expectations on each gender that dictate what is acceptable or normal. They usually come in the form of "females/males should... <do something>" or "females/males tend to <be something>". These preferences influence the way people act in relation to their gender, but they are generally taught by society and vary from culture to culture. In almost all cases, these roles are not directly caused by physical differences between men and women, but developed over time as a way for society to organize itself around sex. These expectations socially limit the way people behave due to their gender in a way that physiology does not.
To some extent, yes, it may reinforce some gender roles, and unavoidably so because they are so prevalent in society. Both cis and trans people have some sort of appreciation for the gender they identify as, and this is one force that keeps gender roles in society. But this reinforcement is not necessarily harmful, in that transitioning itself demonstrates the blurring of gender boundaries. It becomes dangerous, though, when one imposes those gender roles as a requirement to transition to their desired gender. Transgender people have had trouble with obtaining medical means of transition (hormones and surgery) because psychologists, psychiatrists, and physicians deny them until their patients fit the gender roles of their target gender. Historically, this meant that trans people would act overly stereotypical to professionals in order to meet their needs, but this had the unfortunate side effect of skewing mainstream perception of how transgender people really are.
That's rhetorical, by the way. It's clear you have neither the knowledge the answer my question nor the goodwill necessary to engage genuinely.
If you had asked the question sincerely instead of seeking to simply state your ignorant remarks that defy all medical literature on the subject (seriously, conversion therapy?) then maybe the other poster would've been more polite?
Original post by zippyRN
carry on conflating ' Gender Identity Disorder' as it is still legally/ clinically titled , with gender dysphoria / gender identiy
carry on conflating ' Gender Identity Disorder' as it is still legally/ clinically titled , with gender dysphoria / gender identiy
Actually, it seems GID and gender dysphoria are the same thing. The NHS guidelines say that GID encompasses people who are distressed by the "mismatch" between their biological sex and their gender identity. But that definition in itself asserts that biological sex and gender identity are linked, which essentialises gender identity down to biological sex. And to get that sex reassignment, you need to (for example) "live as a woman for a year" (by going out wearing dresses).
In other words, the current state of medical science asserts that gender identity arises from biological sex and that the characteristics of gender identity are linked to specific choices of clothes, voice. The current definition is essentially completely at odds with both common sense and with progressive thinking on gender.
there are some peopel who have de transitioned post surgery , a number of whom were inadequately assessed prior to privately performed GRS
You are confused again. I wasn't talking about people who regretted surgery, at all. I was referring to the fundamental distinction between gender identity and biological sex. If they are distinct and the former is a social construcft, why would someone necessarily want to change their biological sex to match their gender identity? People are free to adopt any gender they choose
the question is do you have the humility to listen to a clinician who is also an expert by experience ...
By "clinician", you mean nurse. And there's no such thing as an "expert by experience". You become an expert by qualifications and professional recognition.
"...means that you have chosen to engage without the slightest clue on whom you are dealing with."
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