Can men's rights and feminism coexist?
I find it strange that feminism harbours such hostility towards the men's rights movement. While you certainly get the occasional misogynist in it I feel like I've seen a lot more from the men's rights movement which is actually helpful than I have from feminism.
But that isn't to say that feminism can't be helpful. There are plenty of issues out that are particularly felt by, or even specific to, women. In my life I have seen plenty of sexism towards women, I have seen men treat women like they're a lesser sex. It happens, of course it does, and people should criticise it. Not censor it, but certainly criticise it. Moreover, in many countries in the world women are still absolutely treated like second class citizens, or even chattel, and more and more people from such places are coming to Western countries to live, and their women need our support. There is plenty of space for feminism to be completely valid, and even absolutely necessary.
The same goes for men's rights. I'm sure I don't have to go into why this movement is helpful, if you're on this sub you know why. I know first hand why it is needed. As someone who suffers from mental health problems I know just how little sympathy men get, and how little help is on offer for them. Men in our society are often seen as expendable islands who are here to provide, but which should never be taken care of.
There are problems for men and women that absolutely should be addressed, but too often I feel like the movements which are supposed to be focused on looking out for either sex are preoccupied with slinging **** at each other, and meanwhile the people who really need help just have to suffer in silence while the people who are supposed to be helping them spend their energy on raging against the other side.
If you're a man and you've suffered from a mental illness and been completely disregarded, leading you to the point of suicide because no one seems to give a ****, you aren't alone. And you aren't only not alone in the male sex. There are women out there who have been treated like ****, raped, beaten, whatever, by men who get some kinda sadistic pleasure out of treating women like dirt. Women who have been scorned for having abortions, women who have been kicked out of their house or even murdered for not following a religion correctly, women who have been treated like sex objects, women who have been called a slut or a whore just for how they dress, and women who have been raped as the pickings of war. Likewise there are men who have been beaten up, murdered, raped, pushed into wars as cannon fodder, and treated in all kinds of awful ways because men are seen as expendable, or for whatever other prejudice. In the end, there's a lot of people in this world who are hurting, and those of us who are shouldn't be lead by the narcissism of the people who claim to stand for us, whether "us" means us with pussies or us with dicks. People who have been ****ed over should all be working together, because every one of us knows how crap it feels to be in a culture which, in one way or another, ain't treating us right. There's what we have in common, and all this other **** doesn't matter. We should be working together to make life less *****y, and feminism and men's rights absolutely have valid places in the world, as they address the issues particular to each sex, and should be working together to rid the problems of prejudice towards either sex.
But that isn't to say that feminism can't be helpful. There are plenty of issues out that are particularly felt by, or even specific to, women. In my life I have seen plenty of sexism towards women, I have seen men treat women like they're a lesser sex. It happens, of course it does, and people should criticise it. Not censor it, but certainly criticise it. Moreover, in many countries in the world women are still absolutely treated like second class citizens, or even chattel, and more and more people from such places are coming to Western countries to live, and their women need our support. There is plenty of space for feminism to be completely valid, and even absolutely necessary.
The same goes for men's rights. I'm sure I don't have to go into why this movement is helpful, if you're on this sub you know why. I know first hand why it is needed. As someone who suffers from mental health problems I know just how little sympathy men get, and how little help is on offer for them. Men in our society are often seen as expendable islands who are here to provide, but which should never be taken care of.
There are problems for men and women that absolutely should be addressed, but too often I feel like the movements which are supposed to be focused on looking out for either sex are preoccupied with slinging **** at each other, and meanwhile the people who really need help just have to suffer in silence while the people who are supposed to be helping them spend their energy on raging against the other side.
If you're a man and you've suffered from a mental illness and been completely disregarded, leading you to the point of suicide because no one seems to give a ****, you aren't alone. And you aren't only not alone in the male sex. There are women out there who have been treated like ****, raped, beaten, whatever, by men who get some kinda sadistic pleasure out of treating women like dirt. Women who have been scorned for having abortions, women who have been kicked out of their house or even murdered for not following a religion correctly, women who have been treated like sex objects, women who have been called a slut or a whore just for how they dress, and women who have been raped as the pickings of war. Likewise there are men who have been beaten up, murdered, raped, pushed into wars as cannon fodder, and treated in all kinds of awful ways because men are seen as expendable, or for whatever other prejudice. In the end, there's a lot of people in this world who are hurting, and those of us who are shouldn't be lead by the narcissism of the people who claim to stand for us, whether "us" means us with pussies or us with dicks. People who have been ****ed over should all be working together, because every one of us knows how crap it feels to be in a culture which, in one way or another, ain't treating us right. There's what we have in common, and all this other **** doesn't matter. We should be working together to make life less *****y, and feminism and men's rights absolutely have valid places in the world, as they address the issues particular to each sex, and should be working together to rid the problems of prejudice towards either sex.
TLDR
Sorry but true.
But my short answer is, of course. The problem is that so-called men's rights activists, or MRA, usually aren't actually men's right activists but simply a movement based on bitter hatred of women. Much like they accuse feminists of being in their direction, ironically.
Sorry but true.
But my short answer is, of course. The problem is that so-called men's rights activists, or MRA, usually aren't actually men's right activists but simply a movement based on bitter hatred of women. Much like they accuse feminists of being in their direction, ironically.
Currently, no.
The MRA movement acts directly against feminism and the progress in women's liberation. That antagonism does nothing to help men either.
The MRA movement acts directly against feminism and the progress in women's liberation. That antagonism does nothing to help men either.
No, feminists don't seem to realise their fight is over in western countries
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Tl;dr.
For real though, how many threads are you going to make about this?
For real though, how many threads are you going to make about this?
Instead of moaning about this why not start campaigning to end circumcision of baby boys or something. Then when feminists start to try and stop you you will have something real to complain about.
Feminism means equality for all. So if everyone was a feminist, there wouldn't be a problem: everyone would have equal rights.
Unfortunately that isn't the case. At this current time, it's women that have less rights than men. I know that men do fair unwell in certain aspects such as parental rights and prison sentences (in comparison to women with the same crime).
Instead of arguing with one another and getting aggressive (as both sides do - one of the reasons feminism is harbouring a bad name for itself), shouldn't we work together to insure that both sexes, or perhaps all genders (including trans and non-binary), actually receive the rights they should, and work towards ending discrimination?
Unfortunately that isn't the case. At this current time, it's women that have less rights than men. I know that men do fair unwell in certain aspects such as parental rights and prison sentences (in comparison to women with the same crime).
Instead of arguing with one another and getting aggressive (as both sides do - one of the reasons feminism is harbouring a bad name for itself), shouldn't we work together to insure that both sexes, or perhaps all genders (including trans and non-binary), actually receive the rights they should, and work towards ending discrimination?
Original post by gwaggy
Feminism means equality for all. So if everyone was a feminist, there wouldn't be a problem: everyone would have equal rights.
Unfortunately that isn't the case. At this current time, it's women that have less rights than men. I know that men do fair unwell in certain aspects such as parental rights and prison sentences (in comparison to women with the same crime).
Instead of arguing with one another and getting aggressive (as both sides do - one of the reasons feminism is harbouring a bad name for itself), shouldn't we work together to insure that both sexes, or perhaps all genders (including trans and non-binary), actually receive the rights they should, and work towards ending discrimination?
Unfortunately that isn't the case. At this current time, it's women that have less rights than men. I know that men do fair unwell in certain aspects such as parental rights and prison sentences (in comparison to women with the same crime).
Instead of arguing with one another and getting aggressive (as both sides do - one of the reasons feminism is harbouring a bad name for itself), shouldn't we work together to insure that both sexes, or perhaps all genders (including trans and non-binary), actually receive the rights they should, and work towards ending discrimination?
You're half right, in that the arguing and getting aggresive is half the reason feminism has a bad name. Unfortunately, you've missed the other half, which is blatantly talking ****. I would be delighted if you could share all the rights that men have and women don't in Britain, or more generally any first world Western country.
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
You're half right, in that the arguing and getting aggresive is half the reason feminism has a bad name. Unfortunately, you've missed the other half, which is blatantly talking ****. I would be delighted if you could share all the rights that men have and women don't in Britain, or more generally any first world Western country.
Equal pay - Women make 16% less money than their male counterparts.
The marriage penalty in US tax law discriminates against women who choose to continue working after they marry
Succession laws legally discriminate against firstborn female children in many countries with hereditary monarchies. Eg. Monaco
Import tariffs in the US are divided by gender, so that more tax is paid on a woman's coat than on a man's
Where a man's living will is inviolable, a woman's can be overruled if she is found to be pregnant
In the US, women aren't guaranteed family leave.
Women pay more for common household items than men do
Pink tax
Women are far more likely to be the victims of human trafficking
Women of all ages are, in fact, more likely than men to live below the poverty line
The US has just made it harder for women to get an abortion
Women cannot have abortions very easily in Eire
Women can't travel as easily as men can
Men can be topless but women can't? Breasts are a mammary organ, not sexual
Women cannot join certain roles in the army, navy or RAF
And that's without mentioning discrimination:
Mothers before careers; Institutionalised sexism
Glass ceiling
Women are underrepresented in government
Women still shoulder more of the household burden
Female soldiers face rape and harassment
The right to breastfeed in public
Having to have certain dress codes such as wearing makeup - remember the news last year when a women was forced to go home without pay for not wearing heals?
Men are allowed to age gracefully, while women are judged
With Trump in charge, you are going to have to rephrase your argument as he is the biggest threat to women's rights in the 21st century and has already made it harder for women to get abortions they need (said earlier).
There's plenty more.
Original post by yudothis
TLDR
Sorry but true.
But my short answer is, of course. The problem is that so-called men's rights activists, or MRA, usually aren't actually men's right activists but simply a movement based on bitter hatred of women. Much like they accuse feminists of being in their direction, ironically.
Sorry but true.
But my short answer is, of course. The problem is that so-called men's rights activists, or MRA, usually aren't actually men's right activists but simply a movement based on bitter hatred of women. Much like they accuse feminists of being in their direction, ironically.
MRAs, in my experience, engage in little to no actual activism. They just moan about women and feminists a lot, and occasionally harass people.
Original post by anarchism101
MRAs, in my experience, engage in little to no actual activism. They just moan about women and feminists a lot, and occasionally harass people.
Exactly. They just whine on the internet, and when feminists actually try to do something or bring a point across, they say "but muh men's problems".
Original post by gwaggy
Equal pay - Women make 16% less money than their male counterparts.
The marriage penalty in US tax law discriminates against women who choose to continue working after they marry
Succession laws legally discriminate against firstborn female children in many countries with hereditary monarchies. Eg. Monaco
Import tariffs in the US are divided by gender, so that more tax is paid on a woman's coat than on a man's
Where a man's living will is inviolable, a woman's can be overruled if she is found to be pregnant
In the US, women aren't guaranteed family leave.
Women pay more for common household items than men do
Pink tax
Women are far more likely to be the victims of human trafficking
Women of all ages are, in fact, more likely than men to live below the poverty line
The US has just made it harder for women to get an abortion
Women cannot have abortions very easily in Eire
Women can't travel as easily as men can
Men can be topless but women can't? Breasts are a mammary organ, not sexual
Women cannot join certain roles in the army, navy or RAF
And that's without mentioning discrimination:
Mothers before careers; Institutionalised sexism
Glass ceiling
Women are underrepresented in government
Women still shoulder more of the household burden
Female soldiers face rape and harassment
The right to breastfeed in public
Having to have certain dress codes such as wearing makeup - remember the news last year when a women was forced to go home without pay for not wearing heals?
Men are allowed to age gracefully, while women are judged
With Trump in charge, you are going to have to rephrase your argument as he is the biggest threat to women's rights in the 21st century and has already made it harder for women to get abortions they need (said earlier).
There's plenty more.
The marriage penalty in US tax law discriminates against women who choose to continue working after they marry
Succession laws legally discriminate against firstborn female children in many countries with hereditary monarchies. Eg. Monaco
Import tariffs in the US are divided by gender, so that more tax is paid on a woman's coat than on a man's
Where a man's living will is inviolable, a woman's can be overruled if she is found to be pregnant
In the US, women aren't guaranteed family leave.
Women pay more for common household items than men do
Pink tax
Women are far more likely to be the victims of human trafficking
Women of all ages are, in fact, more likely than men to live below the poverty line
The US has just made it harder for women to get an abortion
Women cannot have abortions very easily in Eire
Women can't travel as easily as men can
Men can be topless but women can't? Breasts are a mammary organ, not sexual
Women cannot join certain roles in the army, navy or RAF
And that's without mentioning discrimination:
Mothers before careers; Institutionalised sexism
Glass ceiling
Women are underrepresented in government
Women still shoulder more of the household burden
Female soldiers face rape and harassment
The right to breastfeed in public
Having to have certain dress codes such as wearing makeup - remember the news last year when a women was forced to go home without pay for not wearing heals?
Men are allowed to age gracefully, while women are judged
With Trump in charge, you are going to have to rephrase your argument as he is the biggest threat to women's rights in the 21st century and has already made it harder for women to get abortions they need (said earlier).
There's plenty more.
You seem to have a slightly distorted view of what rights are. The amount products are valued at, charged by tariff, or taxed, has nothing to do with rights, even if it is sexist. Much as the greater predisposition to be victim of certain crimes also has nothing to do with rights, be it sexist or not. I would suggest more often than not these are not especially sexist, but even where they are, it is not an infringement on the rights of women.
I'm no expert an US tax law, but if you are referring to the marriage penalty that I think you are, then it discriminates against married couples who both earn over a specific threshold. It doesn't particularly discriminate against the woman, but the couple together.
The wage gap is a fraud and everyone knows it by now, so please can we stop peddling that one?
The few actual rights you bring up are almost unanimously tied to religion, and there I actually agree with you. What little denial of rights remains is almost exclusively tied to religion, but apparently we can't challenge that.
Pretty much all military roles are now open to women, and certainly they will be in the next year or so; a decision on this was made in parliament fairly recently. Whether it's a good idea or not is another question.
As for your 'discrimination':
Pressure to become a mother, I would suggest, comes far more from other women rather than men.
Women have reached the top in more or less all walks of life, so the suggestion there is a glass ceiling is daft. I mean, the British prime minister is a woman, the head of the IMF is a woman, one of the two presidential candidates was a woman, Germany's chancellor is a woman.......
Underrepresentation is not proof of discrimination, unless you can show that equally or more ably women were passed over for men. In fact, I would suggest a glance at the Labour ministers suggests plenty of women there have got their jobs precisely because they were women rather than for aptitude (Diane Abbott springs to mind, amongst others).
And men still work longer hours on average. The fact that this conforms to the norm from a time when there was indeed overt discrimination, does not mean it is still a product of discrimination. I would suggest it actually lends more credence to the suggestion that gender roles are perhaps less socially constructed than many would like us to believe.
Male soldiers face rape and harassment. I don't see how this is in any way discrimination.
Well, there's no rule that says men are allowed to breastfeed in public, so that isn't discrimination. And actually, so far as I'm aware, public breastfeeding is entirely legal.
I mean, I know my view on this will be contentious, but I'm of the opinion that a dress code is something that an employer is allowed to set. If my employer told me I had to wear clown shoes or a bow tie or a fez, I would either wear it or decide the job wasn't worth it. Personally, I don't see the issue.
Women are judged more than men for aging? I can't say I've personally come across either men or women being judged for aging, but that sounds suspiciously like something other women would be judging. Certainly the more general pressure for women to conform to an 'ideal' is coming from other women.
I know people like banging on about Trump, but the thing he did with regard abortion funding is hardly new. It's been in and out - according to whether there was a Republican or Democrat president - for ages now. I agree that Trump has said some pretty unsavoury things, and had some pretty horrendous allegations laid at him, but so far he hasn't done anything especially groundbreaking with regards women's rights.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Instead of moaning about this why not start campaigning to end circumcision of baby boys or something.
Asking questions about and discussing these issues is not 'moaning', its raising awareness and it's an important part of change.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
when feminists start to try and stop you you will have something real to complain about.
when feminists start to try and stop you you will have something real to complain about.
You mean like for example blocking the formation of men's rights advocacy groups?
Two recent examples being the university of Staffordshire, which had its male rights advocacy group blocked by a ‘woman’s network’ who called the idea of a men’s rights group ‘dangerous’. Another example is the university of Durham who’s feminist groups in the student union blocked its male rights advocacy society, which was set up by a male student to raise awareness about male suicide after his friend killed himself, because it was ‘too controversial’…..???
Or do you mean like for example attacking and abusing people trying to attend a lecture to raise awareness about male suicide?
[video="youtube;iARHCxAMAO0"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0[/video]
Or do you mean like attacking and blocking the events at Berkley a few days ago?
Or do you mean like feminists encouraging violence against people who disagree with them as is the case with you and your comments?
(edited 7 years ago)
Cba to read but yes, they can coexist. As long as both strains aim to thrive for equality, then surely they're compatible. Before some smartass says they aren't compatible well imo they are. 
Women's rights issues just demand more attention because they're far more severe, and men are better off than women in a lot of respects.
An example of feminism being of benefit to men's rights is challenging the preconception that men shouldn't be emotional and should fit into a rigid gender role, feminism has sought to redress this by aiming to adapt gender roles and provide flexibility for individuals.
Women's rights issues just demand more attention because they're far more severe, and men are better off than women in a lot of respects.An example of feminism being of benefit to men's rights is challenging the preconception that men shouldn't be emotional and should fit into a rigid gender role, feminism has sought to redress this by aiming to adapt gender roles and provide flexibility for individuals.
Probably not, considering the men's rights movements seems to exist solely to bash feminists rather than actually advocate for men's rights. Feminism has done more to advance men's rights than MRAs ever have or will.
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