Can you counter this flawless argument for Veganism?
Alright, so suppose Earth receives a visit from alien life. They decide to settle and make Earth their home.
These aliens are much more advanced than humans.
They of course need to eat to survive. They can get nourishment from eating plants but because plants don't taste that good, they decide to eat humans.
So they open up their own human restaurants where they serve human ribs, human thighs, human legs etc. They separate human babies from their mothers so they can raise them to be later killed and cooked.
They feed their alien kids human nuggets inside their own alien happy meals. You get the point.
Would you consider their actions to be immoral? Would you consider them evil?
P.S. I eat meat.
These aliens are much more advanced than humans.
They of course need to eat to survive. They can get nourishment from eating plants but because plants don't taste that good, they decide to eat humans.
So they open up their own human restaurants where they serve human ribs, human thighs, human legs etc. They separate human babies from their mothers so they can raise them to be later killed and cooked.
They feed their alien kids human nuggets inside their own alien happy meals. You get the point.
Would you consider their actions to be immoral? Would you consider them evil?
P.S. I eat meat.
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A flawless argument is something with logical rigour, where an assumption is made and each following statement is then deduced from the preceding statement, leading to a final statement which either proves the initial assumption or disproves it. The argument presented leaves the debate open ended by asking the reader for their opinion so it cannot be flawless.
Original post by angelike1
Alright, so suppose Earth receives a visit from alien life. They decide to settle and make Earth their home.
These aliens are much more advanced than humans.
They of course need to eat to survive. They can get nourishment from eating plants but because plants don't taste that good, they decide to eat humans.
So they open up their own human restaurants where they serve human ribs, human thighs, human legs etc. They separate human babies from their mothers so they can raise them to be later killed and cooked.
They feed their alien kids human nuggets inside their own alien happy meals. You get the point.
Would you consider their actions to be immoral? Would you consider them evil?
P.S. I eat meat.
These aliens are much more advanced than humans.
They of course need to eat to survive. They can get nourishment from eating plants but because plants don't taste that good, they decide to eat humans.
So they open up their own human restaurants where they serve human ribs, human thighs, human legs etc. They separate human babies from their mothers so they can raise them to be later killed and cooked.
They feed their alien kids human nuggets inside their own alien happy meals. You get the point.
Would you consider their actions to be immoral? Would you consider them evil?
P.S. I eat meat.
If an alien civilisation like that came, obviously we would try to protect ourselves from them, using lethal force if necessary. We would end up trying to kill them all before they kill us. If they wished to avoid that scenario, they could come to a truce with us; they wouldn’t kill us and we wouldn’t kill them. In that case it would be immoral to go back on their agreement, as it would make the truce worthless. We’d go back trying to kill them before they kill us, out of mistrust if nothing else.
However if they were so much more powerful than us, to the extent that we couldn’t hurt them even if we wanted to, then they wouldn’t need to make any such agreement. In that case their actions would not be immoral. They could farm us for food and it’s just tough luck for us, we’re no longer at the top of the food chain.
The point here is that morality is just a set of mutual agreements we've made with each other to help us live together in peace. We don't break them lest it incentivises others to break them as well. We agree not to kill other humans because we don't want them to fear us and then try to kill us first. But we have no such agreement with animals.
(edited 3 years ago)
The problem with Veganism is that not only we eat meat for it's taste, but also humans need animal proteins and fats their digestive system is unable to produce from plant food.
Same time, these proteins can be delivered by eating egs and dairy products. It is possible to produce both without doing harm to animals, it only makes these products a little more expensive. This is where Vegetarianism wins over all other options.
Another thing is, that people today eat too much meat. We should eat meat like our ancestors did. On daily basis only vegetables, cereals, and some dairy products. Sometimes eggs. Meat only once a week tops.
Same time, these proteins can be delivered by eating egs and dairy products. It is possible to produce both without doing harm to animals, it only makes these products a little more expensive. This is where Vegetarianism wins over all other options.
Another thing is, that people today eat too much meat. We should eat meat like our ancestors did. On daily basis only vegetables, cereals, and some dairy products. Sometimes eggs. Meat only once a week tops.
If advanced aliens had invented interstellar travel I am not sure they would even both setting up human farms. Seems like a huge waste of time and effort.
Original post by PTMalewski
The problem with Veganism is that not only we eat meat for it's taste, but also humans need animal proteins and fats their digestive system is unable to produce from plant food.
Same time, these proteins can be delivered by eating egs and dairy products. It is possible to produce both without doing harm to animals, it only makes these products a little more expensive. This is where Vegetarianism wins over all other options.
Another thing is, that people today eat too much meat. We should eat meat like our ancestors did. On daily basis only vegetables, cereals, and some dairy products. Sometimes eggs. Meat only once a week tops.
Same time, these proteins can be delivered by eating egs and dairy products. It is possible to produce both without doing harm to animals, it only makes these products a little more expensive. This is where Vegetarianism wins over all other options.
Another thing is, that people today eat too much meat. We should eat meat like our ancestors did. On daily basis only vegetables, cereals, and some dairy products. Sometimes eggs. Meat only once a week tops.
Original post by Napp
I'm more interested in how on earth you can compare the two scenarios? An alien invasion vs. basic sustenance? Somewhat fallacious.
So, if one could demonstrate that a vegan diet is healthier and more nutritious than a meat eating one, would eating meat then be considered immoral?
(edited 3 years ago)
Original post by DiddyDec
If advanced aliens had invented interstellar travel I am not sure they would even both setting up human farms. Seems like a huge waste of time and effort.
You should ask them if they do come.
Original post by angelike1
Alright, so suppose Earth receives a visit from alien life. They decide to settle and make Earth their home.
These aliens are much more advanced than humans.
They of course need to eat to survive. They can get nourishment from eating plants but because plants don't taste that good, they decide to eat humans.
So they open up their own human restaurants where they serve human ribs, human thighs, human legs etc. They separate human babies from their mothers so they can raise them to be later killed and cooked.
They feed their alien kids human nuggets inside their own alien happy meals. You get the point.
Would you consider their actions to be immoral? Would you consider them evil?
P.S. I eat meat.
These aliens are much more advanced than humans.
They of course need to eat to survive. They can get nourishment from eating plants but because plants don't taste that good, they decide to eat humans.
So they open up their own human restaurants where they serve human ribs, human thighs, human legs etc. They separate human babies from their mothers so they can raise them to be later killed and cooked.
They feed their alien kids human nuggets inside their own alien happy meals. You get the point.
Would you consider their actions to be immoral? Would you consider them evil?
P.S. I eat meat.
Morality is subjective. If the aliens see it as morally acceptable, why would they care what their lunch thinks about it?
Original post by DiddyDec
If advanced aliens had invented interstellar travel I am not sure they would even both setting up human farms. Seems like a huge waste of time and effort.
On holiday once in Wales, we drove for over an hour to get a Muccy D's.
Original post by angelike1
So, if one could demonstrate that a vegan diet is healthier and more nutritious than a meat eating one, would eating meat then be considered immoral?
Eating meat per se isn't immoral, but commercial factory farming of livestock is. People just manage to rationalise it in a way that they feel comfortable with.
Original post by angelike1
So, if one could demonstrate that a vegan diet is healthier and more nutritious than a meat eating one, would eating meat then be considered immoral?
Doubt it, whether it is 'healthier and more nutritious' doesnt effect the base fundamentals that it is perfectly natural to eat meat and cant really be considered 'immoral' anyway. The cycle of life having no innate morality to it.
Original post by QE2
Eating meat per se isn't immoral, but commercial factory farming of livestock is. People just manage to rationalise it in a way that they feel comfortable with.
So you wouldn't think it would be immoral for the aliens to eat humans?
Also, I don't see why you're against suffering of the livestock but not ending its life early? It's almost like being anti-torture but pro-murder.
Original post by Napp
Doubt it, whether it is 'healthier and more nutritious' doesnt effect the base fundamentals that it is perfectly natural to eat meat and cant really be considered 'immoral' anyway. The cycle of life having no innate morality to it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
Also, can you answer the question in the OP: is it immoral for the aliens to eat us?
Original post by QE2
On holiday once in Wales, we drove for over an hour to get a Muccy D's.
Better than whatever the Welsh eat.
Original post by QE2
Morality is subjective. If the aliens see it as morally acceptable, why would they care what their lunch thinks about it?
"Morality is subjective. If the Aztecs thought it was morally acceptable to sacrifice humans, why would they care what their offering thinks about it?"
Original post by angelike1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
Also, can you answer the question in the OP: is it immoral for the aliens to eat us?
Also, can you answer the question in the OP: is it immoral for the aliens to eat us?
Flawed considering this is a matter of base biological imperatives in that all animals need to eat ergo you cannot call it 'immoral' to do that.
It's too bizarre to really justify a response. Suffice it to say no, anthropomorphising is silly for a good reason.
Original post by Napp
Flawed considering this is a matter of base biological imperatives in that all animals need to eat ergo you cannot call it 'immoral' to do that.
It's too bizarre to really justify a response. Suffice it to say no, anthropomorphising is silly for a good reason.
It's too bizarre to really justify a response. Suffice it to say no, anthropomorphising is silly for a good reason.
Except all animals don't need to eat other animals. We certainly don't.
Mother Nature isn't going to knock on your door or send you a fine everytime you don't slaughter a cow. That is what the appeal to nature is.
It's also 'natural' for some animals to **** their siblings and eat their own kind.
I'd argue causing unnecessary suffering to an animal and prematurely ending its life in order to satisfy one's taste buds is very obviously immoral.
(edited 3 years ago)
Original post by angelike1
Except all animals don't need to eat other animals. We certainly don't.
Mother Nature isn't going to knock on your door or send you a fine everytime you don't slaughter a cow. That is what the appeal to nature is.
It's also 'natural' for some animals to **** their siblings and eat their own kind.
I'd argue causing unnecessary suffering to an animal and prematurely ending its life in order to satisfy one's taste buds is very obviously immoral.
Mother Nature isn't going to knock on your door or send you a fine everytime you don't slaughter a cow. That is what the appeal to nature is.
It's also 'natural' for some animals to **** their siblings and eat their own kind.
I'd argue causing unnecessary suffering to an animal and prematurely ending its life in order to satisfy one's taste buds is very obviously immoral.
No all animals don't, just most animals. Be they birds, bears, cats, lizards etc. etc.
It rather helps and is infinitely healthier than eating soggy lentils.
Now whose using farcical comparisons?
Thats your opinion and you're welcome to it. The majority of the world disagrees though. Then again, if we were to initiate your plan to end meat eating it would entail a mass genocide of livestock which would no longer serve any purpose. Or simply letting it loose to destroy the natural habitat. How exactly do you square this with your unique interpretation of 'morality'?
Original post by angelike1
So you wouldn't think it would be immoral for the aliens to eat humans?
As I said, morality is subjective. We would see it as immoral, they would not.
Also, I don't see why you're against suffering of the livestock but not ending its life early? It's almost like being anti-torture but pro-murder.
We are omnivores. There was a time (and there may be occasions now) where eating animals for food is a necessity.
Do you believe that it is immoral for a fox to eat a chicken?
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