Social media gave birth to Incels
I assure you that before the invention of the internet and social media, there wasn't men carrying out mass shootings against women because they couldn't get laid.
Social media gave birth to incels. Sure, these men who are incels have issues. But who doesn't have issues? You all act like it's their miniscule issues which are causing them to not be able to find love. When really it's because of what society is today.
Social media gave birth to incels. Sure, these men who are incels have issues. But who doesn't have issues? You all act like it's their miniscule issues which are causing them to not be able to find love. When really it's because of what society is today.
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That 'ugly' guy could do with a tag here i think...
Original post by Anonymous
I assure you that before the invention of the internet and social media, there wasn't men carrying out mass shootings against women because they couldn't get laid.
Well, human history is full of jilted people getting murderous but I do concede that the current trend for spree killing and having it plastered all over the media because some guy can't get laid is a particularly modern phenomena.
Social media gave birth to incels.
It certainly gave them the echo chamber in which to lose themselves in their groupthink.
You all act like it's their miniscule issues which are causing them to not be able to find love. When really it's because of what society is today.
For sake of clarity, when I describe someone as an incel, I am using the dictionary definition of incel as someone who has a massive chip on their shoulder towards those of the opposite sex because they perceive they can not form a romantic relationship or have sex. I've focused on men as what I've seen of the internet incel subculture is dominated by men and the high profile incidents of violence have all been perpetrated by men.
Men who feel resentment towards women because they don't believe they are sexually available are going to struggle to get laid because those red flags that women learn to pick up are clearly visible. When a person carries around those red flags, the problem becomes self-perpetuating. You come across as creepy or desperate, women give you a wide berth, you blame women, the cycle continues. It is not society, it is the individual that is the problem.
Men who struggle with women have a choice. Look at themselves to figure out where they are going wrong, try to correct that (be it something simple like losing some weight or something more challenging like addressing psychological problems) and possibly open up the world of relationships to themselves or they can go down a route of blaming women for their problems and likely spend the rest of their lives by themselves.
(edited 2 years ago)
Like you say I think it's a natural consequence of the ways society is changing. You can blame the individual people, but if there is a broad statistical change, it's unreasonable to think it's just by chance.
If society brands someone a failure, a loser, unattractive, ridicules them, etc., some people won't just take that lying down. Social media probably exacerbated the issue (as they have with many others) by providing an echo chamber where people stew in those feelings all day long for years on end.
The thing about incel rhetoric (and other similar subcultures such as the red pill) is that it's not all wrong. Some of it is true, but society demonises the group without any acknowledgement or nuanced consideration of what they're saying. Instead the media paints them as a hate group, straw mans their arguments to make them seem ridiculous, etc. People who buy into that are doing the same thing as the incels who buy into mistaken rhetoric about society, just with a different information source.
It's not surprising to me that a society where some men not only feel like failures, but that the rest of society hates them without even listening to what they say, will find that some of those people turn on that society. Society either needs to oppress groups with an iron fist, or give them opportunities to succeed - any space in between invites discontent and violence. That's obviously not to justify it, but labelling incels delusional evil losers and calling it a day doesn't cut it in my opinion.
If society brands someone a failure, a loser, unattractive, ridicules them, etc., some people won't just take that lying down. Social media probably exacerbated the issue (as they have with many others) by providing an echo chamber where people stew in those feelings all day long for years on end.
The thing about incel rhetoric (and other similar subcultures such as the red pill) is that it's not all wrong. Some of it is true, but society demonises the group without any acknowledgement or nuanced consideration of what they're saying. Instead the media paints them as a hate group, straw mans their arguments to make them seem ridiculous, etc. People who buy into that are doing the same thing as the incels who buy into mistaken rhetoric about society, just with a different information source.
It's not surprising to me that a society where some men not only feel like failures, but that the rest of society hates them without even listening to what they say, will find that some of those people turn on that society. Society either needs to oppress groups with an iron fist, or give them opportunities to succeed - any space in between invites discontent and violence. That's obviously not to justify it, but labelling incels delusional evil losers and calling it a day doesn't cut it in my opinion.
Original post by miser
Like you say I think it's a natural consequence of the ways society is changing. You can blame the individual people, but if there is a broad statistical change, it's unreasonable to think it's just by chance.
If society brands someone a failure, a loser, unattractive, ridicules them, etc., some people won't just take that lying down. Social media probably exacerbated the issue (as they have with many others) by providing an echo chamber where people stew in those feelings all day long for years on end.
The thing about incel rhetoric (and other similar subcultures such as the red pill) is that it's not all wrong. Some of it is true, but society demonises the group without any acknowledgement or nuanced consideration of what they're saying. Instead the media paints them as a hate group, straw mans their arguments to make them seem ridiculous, etc. People who buy into that are doing the same thing as the incels who buy into mistaken rhetoric about society, just with a different information source.
It's not surprising to me that a society where some men not only feel like failures, but that the rest of society hates them without even listening to what they say, will find that some of those people turn on that society. Society either needs to oppress groups with an iron fist, or give them opportunities to succeed - any space in between invites discontent and violence. That's obviously not to justify it, but labelling incels delusional evil losers and calling it a day doesn't cut it in my opinion.
If society brands someone a failure, a loser, unattractive, ridicules them, etc., some people won't just take that lying down. Social media probably exacerbated the issue (as they have with many others) by providing an echo chamber where people stew in those feelings all day long for years on end.
The thing about incel rhetoric (and other similar subcultures such as the red pill) is that it's not all wrong. Some of it is true, but society demonises the group without any acknowledgement or nuanced consideration of what they're saying. Instead the media paints them as a hate group, straw mans their arguments to make them seem ridiculous, etc. People who buy into that are doing the same thing as the incels who buy into mistaken rhetoric about society, just with a different information source.
It's not surprising to me that a society where some men not only feel like failures, but that the rest of society hates them without even listening to what they say, will find that some of those people turn on that society. Society either needs to oppress groups with an iron fist, or give them opportunities to succeed - any space in between invites discontent and violence. That's obviously not to justify it, but labelling incels delusional evil losers and calling it a day doesn't cut it in my opinion.
I'd be interested in hearing what aspects of incel rhetoric you think is true. It's a challenging issue but from what I've seen, many of these beliefs come from a warped sense of entitlement and as a coping strategy to deal with self-hatred. I do not think that many of these men have been branded as a failure by society - I think they have branded themselves as such. The ridicule by society isn't aimed at failures, it's aimed at those who try to deal with their failures by trying to shift the blame to anybody but themselves. I do agree with the OP somewhat because I think social media does carry responsibility for exacerbating self-hatred. If you are constantly exposed to channels where people present their lives in the most positive manner possible, a person who is mediocre can be led into believing that they are a failure, which starts the cycle of self hatred.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by Plagioclase
I'd be interested in hearing what aspects of incel rhetoric you think is true. It's a challenging issue but from what I've seen, many of these beliefs come from a warped sense of entitlement and as a coping strategy to deal with self-hatred. I do not think that many of these men have been branded as a failure by society - I think they have branded themselves as such. The ridicule by society isn't aimed at failures, it's aimed at those who try to deal with their failures by trying to shift the blame to anybody but themselves. I do agree with the OP somewhat because I think social media does carry responsibility for exacerbating self-hatred. If you are constantly exposed to channels where people present their lives in the most positive manner possible, a person who is mediocre can be led into believing that they are a failure, which starts the cycle of self hatred.
I would suggest that the sympathy is due to the fact that the advent of online dating has substantially increased competition by virtue of the fact that both biological societal factors have made men far more desperate than women and this has increased the relative sexual price women can charge (I.e. they can be more selective). The willingness of so many women to join extreme examples of this like Tinder (an app based entirely on shallow surface features) essentially means that they are in a meat market where there are few customers and too many sellers. This has essentially amplified Darwinian selection pressures and so more men have lost out.
Personally speaking I actually consider incels, cucks and some of the other groups that have popped up to be poor, inferior examples of manhood (your failures in life are almost always your own) but I do think that men (partly via their own stupidity and willingness to validate even unattractive women) have it harder than they historically have done and have some sympathy.
Original post by Rakas21
The willingness of so many women to join extreme examples of this like Tinder (an app based entirely on shallow surface features) essentially means that they are in a meat market where there are few customers and too many sellers.
I'd l dispute that Tinder is even remotely extreme...
Regardless, this sentence doesn't make sense. If so many women women are joining Tinder, then there would be far more customers.
The problem with online dating is that men who struggle with women in real life sign up expecting to be a shortcut to women. Inevitably they run into the same problems they have in the world and get very vocal in their resentment. Meanwhile the men who are half-decent looking and possess better social skills than a soggy cornflake quietly get on with the fun and romancing.
Original post by Trilobite.
I'd l dispute that Tinder is even remotely extreme...
Regardless, this sentence doesn't make sense. If so many women women are joining Tinder, then there would be far more customers.
The problem with online dating is that men who struggle with women in real life sign up expecting to be a shortcut to women. Inevitably they run into the same problems they have in the world and get very vocal in their resentment. Meanwhile the men who are half-decent looking and possess better social skills than a soggy cornflake quietly get on with the fun and romancing.
Regardless, this sentence doesn't make sense. If so many women women are joining Tinder, then there would be far more customers.
The problem with online dating is that men who struggle with women in real life sign up expecting to be a shortcut to women. Inevitably they run into the same problems they have in the world and get very vocal in their resentment. Meanwhile the men who are half-decent looking and possess better social skills than a soggy cornflake quietly get on with the fun and romancing.
The customer to seller ratio here takes into account relative desperation. Not only are there likely more men on Tinder than women but those men are far more desperate to sell there wares begin with even before the impact of this generates increased selective behaviour. It is also a statement relative to historical meeting points such as a pub. Essentially the ground has become unequal.
That's correct to some degree but not entirely. I have known of men who have no problem getting laid in a real life setting but who are essentially limited to replies from shall we say less desirable women on sites like Tinder and POF and that's because both are somewhat more shallow (much harder to display personality online) and also meat markets (i know of women who recieve 100 replies a day but only a handfull of bad come ons during a normal night out).
As i say, i think your correct that a good proportion of these men probably struggled to begin with but the online environment has certainly amplified this impact and generated larger numbers than would have otherwise been the case though again i do put the blame on the individual mostly and the wider social behavioural of many men online who have become increasingly pitiful and foolish.
Original post by Rakas21
I would suggest that the sympathy is due to the fact that the advent of online dating has substantially increased competition by virtue of the fact that both biological societal factors have made men far more desperate than women and this has increased the relative sexual price women can charge (I.e. they can be more selective). The willingness of so many women to join extreme examples of this like Tinder (an app based entirely on shallow surface features) essentially means that they are in a meat market where there are few customers and too many sellers. This has essentially amplified Darwinian selection pressures and so more men have lost out.
Personally speaking I actually consider incels, cucks and some of the other groups that have popped up to be poor, inferior examples of manhood (your failures in life are almost always your own) but I do think that men (partly via their own stupidity and willingness to validate even unattractive women) have it harder than they historically have done and have some sympathy.
Personally speaking I actually consider incels, cucks and some of the other groups that have popped up to be poor, inferior examples of manhood (your failures in life are almost always your own) but I do think that men (partly via their own stupidity and willingness to validate even unattractive women) have it harder than they historically have done and have some sympathy.
Your last paragraph is spot on. If you’re below average in looks, you’re literally ****ed because those who are perhaps slightly above average are pandering to unattractive women. It’s places like Tinder, Reddit etc are such absolute meat fests. It’s also why becoming unattractive, certainly in terms of weight and size isn’t necessarily seen as a bad thing for women now because some men will always pander.
Original post by imlikeahermit
Your last paragraph is spot on. If you’re below average in looks, you’re literally ****ed because those who are perhaps slightly above average are pandering to unattractive women. It’s places like Tinder, Reddit etc are such absolute meat fests. It’s also why becoming unattractive, certainly in terms of weight and size isn’t necessarily seen as a bad thing for women now because some men will always pander.
Although having said that, there's also femcels. The longer they wait, the closer the fertility window comes to closing, and some of these women aren't exactly prize catches themselves, yet they want the most attractive, wealthiest man they can get, in some cases while also pouring scorn on the entire gender - it's best to dispense with the pretence that the male's status doesn't matter to a lot of women for those who labour under such a misapprehension. Alas, the male biological clock doesn't tick at quite the same pace. But yes, those sites are infested with white knights, cucks etc. trying to redress low sexual market value with pandering etc., and in many cases the wokeism is a cloak to get nearer to gullible women.
Original post by imlikeahermit
Your last paragraph is spot on. If you’re below average in looks, you’re literally ****ed because those who are perhaps slightly above average are pandering to unattractive women.
I don't think that's true. I know loads of young men who are below average in looks but have girlfriends, if not wives. I'm not saying this applies to you, but the whole 'if you're unattractive then you can't get a girlfriend' thing seems to come mostly from men who struggle with women and are lacking in most other areas, e.g. personality, interests, confidence, etc.
This inevitably contributes to the self-perpetuating problem that Trilobite mentioned. Some men struggle with women, they blame their appearance, they make no effort to improve themselves and then they continue to struggle with women.
I disagree.
The internet, manosphere and social media may have provided more tech savvy incels with the convenient option of an online community and access to some anonymity.
Online venues to: congregate, chat, feud, feed existing negative mindsets, echo or exacerbate each others existing conspiracy theories/grumbles/insults/ envy and rage.
But there have always been involuntary celibates.
Often very demanding highly antisocial types with: few friends, obsessions with their size or the way they look, little sexual experience unless they have paid a sex worker and no relationship history.
Usually entitled, very unpleasant individuals with habitual anger management problems or criminal tendencies that refuse to take any responsibility for their own lives.
Then seem outraged to discover that most reasonable people outside of their immediate family won't voluntarily give them the time of day in a social or sexual context.
School shooters, loudmouthed dinosaur relics of the prehistoric era/dark ages, misogynistic creeps that aim to murder as many female sex workers as they possibly can manage and all manner of religious whackos & violent conspiracy theorists.
The internet, manosphere and social media may have provided more tech savvy incels with the convenient option of an online community and access to some anonymity.
Online venues to: congregate, chat, feud, feed existing negative mindsets, echo or exacerbate each others existing conspiracy theories/grumbles/insults/ envy and rage.
But there have always been involuntary celibates.
Often very demanding highly antisocial types with: few friends, obsessions with their size or the way they look, little sexual experience unless they have paid a sex worker and no relationship history.
Usually entitled, very unpleasant individuals with habitual anger management problems or criminal tendencies that refuse to take any responsibility for their own lives.
Then seem outraged to discover that most reasonable people outside of their immediate family won't voluntarily give them the time of day in a social or sexual context.
School shooters, loudmouthed dinosaur relics of the prehistoric era/dark ages, misogynistic creeps that aim to murder as many female sex workers as they possibly can manage and all manner of religious whackos & violent conspiracy theorists.
Original post by Anonymous
I assure you that before the invention of the internet and social media, there wasn't men carrying out mass shootings against women because they couldn't get laid.
Social media gave birth to incels. Sure, these men who are incels have issues. But who doesn't have issues? You all act like it's their miniscule issues which are causing them to not be able to find love. When really it's because of what society is today.
Social media gave birth to incels. Sure, these men who are incels have issues. But who doesn't have issues? You all act like it's their miniscule issues which are causing them to not be able to find love. When really it's because of what society is today.
Incels are here from the beginning of humankind. The only difference is that social media gave freedom to the incels to express their views and before social media they were killed or tortured by people for expressing their views.
Original post by londonmyst
I disagree.
The internet, manosphere and social media may have provided more tech savvy incels with the convenient option of an online community and access to some anonymity.
Online venues to: congregate, chat, feud, feed existing negative mindsets, echo or exacerbate each others existing conspiracy theories/grumbles/insults/ envy and rage.
But there have always been involuntary celibates.
Often very demanding highly antisocial types with: few friends, obsessions with their size or the way they look, little sexual experience unless they have paid a sex worker and no relationship history.
Usually entitled, very unpleasant individuals with habitual anger management problems or criminal tendencies that refuse to take any responsibility for their own lives.
Then seem outraged to discover that most reasonable people outside of their immediate family won't voluntarily give them the time of day in a social or sexual context.
School shooters, loudmouthed dinosaur relics of the prehistoric era/dark ages, misogynistic creeps that aim to murder as many female sex workers as they possibly can manage and all manner of religious whackos & violent conspiracy theorists.
The internet, manosphere and social media may have provided more tech savvy incels with the convenient option of an online community and access to some anonymity.
Online venues to: congregate, chat, feud, feed existing negative mindsets, echo or exacerbate each others existing conspiracy theories/grumbles/insults/ envy and rage.
But there have always been involuntary celibates.
Often very demanding highly antisocial types with: few friends, obsessions with their size or the way they look, little sexual experience unless they have paid a sex worker and no relationship history.
Usually entitled, very unpleasant individuals with habitual anger management problems or criminal tendencies that refuse to take any responsibility for their own lives.
Then seem outraged to discover that most reasonable people outside of their immediate family won't voluntarily give them the time of day in a social or sexual context.
School shooters, loudmouthed dinosaur relics of the prehistoric era/dark ages, misogynistic creeps that aim to murder as many female sex workers as they possibly can manage and all manner of religious whackos & violent conspiracy theorists.
PRSOM
Original post by Rakas21
The customer to seller ratio here takes into account relative desperation. Not only are there likely more men on Tinder than women but those men are far more desperate to sell there wares begin with even before the impact of this generates increased selective behaviour. It is also a statement relative to historical meeting points such as a pub. Essentially the ground has become unequal.
Then men should use more historical meeting points like the pub rather than relying on online dating if it is going bad for them. It's bizarre how perceived success at online dating has become the yardstick by which sexual success is measured and TSR's relationship section is full of men *****ing about online dating when it appears most relationships start as friends (I believe the sample used was heavily biased towards younger people). Anecdotally, while I see people using online dating effectively, I still see the majority of relationships starting as either friends or meeting people through friends/work.
Of course, this requires actively cultivating social networks and friendships. That requires a lot more effort than flicking through pictures on a screen, hence why I described the likes of Tinder as shortcut. And of course that is not going to the guy sat in his bedroom all the time looking at garbage on incel websites to confirm his negative world view.
Original post by imlikeahermit
If you’re below average in looks, you’re literally ****ed because those who are perhaps slightly above average are pandering to unattractive women.
This is the sort of incel thinking that traps men in a negative feedback loop. They create a self-fulfilling prophecy for themselves that is so self-defeating.
You can see how false this statement is simply by walking around town or the supermarket and seeing all the men with nothing going for them looks-wise who are in the company of a woman.
It’s places like Tinder, Reddit etc are such absolute meat fests.
You're trying to pick up women on Reddit? We can see where you are going wrong.
Original post by Trilobite.
This is the sort of incel thinking that traps men in a negative feedback loop. They create a self-fulfilling prophecy for themselves that is so self-defeating.
You can see how false this statement is simply by walking around town or the supermarket and seeing all the men with nothing going for them looks-wise who are in the company of a woman.
You're trying to pick up women on Reddit? We can see where you are going wrong.
You can see how false this statement is simply by walking around town or the supermarket and seeing all the men with nothing going for them looks-wise who are in the company of a woman.
You're trying to pick up women on Reddit? We can see where you are going wrong.
Lmao. I’m married. Nice try though.
Original post by SHallowvale
I don't think that's true. I know loads of young men who are below average in looks but have girlfriends, if not wives. I'm not saying this applies to you, but the whole 'if you're unattractive then you can't get a girlfriend' thing seems to come mostly from men who struggle with women and are lacking in most other areas, e.g. personality, interests, confidence, etc.
This inevitably contributes to the self-perpetuating problem that Trilobite mentioned. Some men struggle with women, they blame their appearance, they make no effort to improve themselves and then they continue to struggle with women.
This inevitably contributes to the self-perpetuating problem that Trilobite mentioned. Some men struggle with women, they blame their appearance, they make no effort to improve themselves and then they continue to struggle with women.
Lmao. Yeah. Because grossly overweight women managing to sell their wares on OnlyFans doesn’t exemplify my point that it’s pandered too.
Original post by imlikeahermit
Lmao. Yeah. Because grossly overweight women managing to sell their wares on OnlyFans doesn’t exemplify my point that it’s pandered too.
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say, could you clarify? Are you saying that the only reason below average looking men have girlfriends is because they are A) overweight girlfiends and B) bought on OnlyFans? If not then I don't see what relevance this point has.
Original post by SHallowvale
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say, could you clarify? Are you saying that the only reason below average looking men have girlfriends is because they are A) overweight girlfiends and B) bought on OnlyFans? If not then I don't see what relevance this point has.
I've looked closely at this. below average men have GFs who are around the same in looks. Ie a 5 guy will have a 5 or below GF.
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