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Anti-Semitism on the march in Europe again Watch

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    (Original post by banker 132)
    You keep talking about Hamas. What about the Palestinian Authority which still represents the Majority of Palestinians. It is becoming evident that you care little about the plight of the Palestinian people and are more obsessed with Hamas' founding charter and the narrative of the Israeli government.
    Do you see any wrong with the current state of affairs in the middle east on the part of the Isreali government. How do u justify the the Jewish settlements in the West Bank?
    I'm talking about Hamas because that is who Israel is fighting right now.
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I'm talking about Hamas because that is who Israel is fighting right now.
    You didnt answer any of my other questions. What about the Settlements? Also,though they are fighting hamas now, its ordinary Palestinians who are dying and who die even when there is relative peace because of the crippling siege on gaza.
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    (Original post by banker 132)
    You didnt answer any of my other questions. What about the Settlements? Also,though they are fighting hamas now, its ordinary Palestinians who are dying and who die even when there is relative peace because of the crippling siege on gaza.
    I am trying to stay on topic as far as is possible.

    Hamas is an Islamist, terrorist organisation that hates Jews and wants to eradicate Israel. It has refused to renounce violence. It has used its own people as human shields. It has redirected money and resources to the building of rockets and terror tunnels. It is the cause of all the problems that the Palestinians in Gaza face. Imagine, for a moment, that the government of Gaza acted like a Western country and focussed on things like law and order, freedom of the press, healthcare, welfare support, infrastructure and education. Do you suppose there would be a blockade on Gaza now?

    If you answer yes then I have nothing further to say because there is too big a divide between us.
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    (Original post by TheAnusFiles)
    Look here's the thing: I'll break it down so it is easy to refute

    1) the quran says a lot of awful things
    So does the Old testament.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    So does the Old testament.
    Ted Bundy murdered people. But so did John Wayne Gacy. I guess that makes none bad, huh?
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    (Original post by TheAnusFiles)
    Ted Bundy murdered people. But so did John Wayne Gacy. I guess that makes none bad, huh?
    No but it makes you look like a hypocrite in stating that Islam is fundamentally more sinister than other religions.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    No but it makes you look like a hypocrite in stating that Islam is fundamentally more sinister than other religions.
    Did I ever say it was?
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    (Original post by TheAnusFiles)
    1) the quran says a lot of awful things

    2) Muslims cannot be selective regarding what is written in the quran

    3) ergo anyone who chooses to be Muslim supports all the horrid things written in that book
    What you say there is utter rubbish. Christianity has been though changes in how the text is interpreted. You have the dogmatic lot who follow everything word for word then you have people who don't take it all literally and actually have some kind of free thought and morals the stuff gets filtered through.

    Personally I don't know why anyone would follow a book religiously, but people do and they are not all evil. There is no reason why Islam in extremist theocracies can not have the same sort of transitions that Christianity has gone through in England.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    What you say there is utter rubbish. Christianity has been though changes in how the text is interpreted. You have the dogmatic lot who follow everything word for word then you have people who don't take it all literally and actually have some kind of free thought and morals the stuff gets filtered through.

    Personally I don't know why anyone would follow a book religiously, but people do and they are not all evil. There is no reason why Islam in extremist theocracies can not have the same sort of transitions that Christianity has gone through in England.
    You are talking out of your ****. "There is no reason why Islam in extremist theocracies can not have the same sort of transitions that Christianity has gone through in England." Well my friend because as any Muslim will tell you, Islam is perfect. It cannot be changed.

    Again as I'll point out I'm not a christian. Defending Islam on the basis that Christianity is bad too is idiocy.
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    (Original post by banker 132)
    I think its inevitable that those who sympathize with the pain being suffered and endured by the Palestinians will resent Jews who support their government's atrocities and human rights violations is the west bank and Gaza. Yes!
    What the atrocities of Israel defending themselves? Right...

    Go home anti-semite. Your lot died in 1945.

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    (Original post by merrill)
    What the atrocities of Israel defending themselves? Right...

    Go home anti-semite. Your lot died in 1945.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    That's petty. You cannot call anyone who attempts to explain the grievances the Palestinian people or speak out about what the UN has referred to as human rights violations and war crimes an antisemite. That is racism itself. And its attitudes like yours which stands in the way of a just peace for both sides in the middle east.
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    (Original post by banker 132)
    That's petty. You cannot call anyone who attempts to explain the grievances the Palestinian people or speak out about what the UN has referred to as human rights violations and war crimes an antisemite. That is racism itself. And its attitudes like yours which stands in the way of a just peace for both sides in the middle east.
    No, what is bigoted is not understanding the grievances Israelis have towards Hamas, as you seem to have shown throughout this thread.

    You're an anti semite, not a defender of Palestinians. Don't even dare trying to claim you are looking out for Palestinians or speaking out against wrongs that have been committed against them. You are just using that reason to mask your bigotry.

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    (Original post by merrill)
    No, what is bigoted is not understanding the grievances Israelis have towards Hamas, as you seem to have shown throughout this thread.

    You're an anti semite, not a defender of Palestinians. Don't even dare trying to claim you are looking out for Palestinians or speaking out against wrongs that have been committed against them. You are just using that reason to mask your bigotry.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Do you have any proof for any of these accusations? Any statements to quote? I have throughout this thread emphasized that i do not agree with Hamas or the killing of Israeli civilians, I only tried to explain the objective reasons behind their actions.
    I understand the feelings of Israeli's against hamas, i just dont see that as reason enough to kill a thousand innocent paletinians. I am also against the seige and illegal occupation. That doesnt make me an antisemite!!
    I take it you dont care much for international law, that is where we disagree. if anyone is a bigot here it is you who propels the IDF rhetoric of making the offenders victims!!
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    No need to speak, we just have to fight, as a Turk I can say we will wipe Israel out of world map. Wait and see.
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    (Original post by banker 132)
    Do you have any proof for any of these accusations? Any statements to quote? I have throughout this thread emphasized that i do not agree with Hamas or the killing of Israeli civilians, I only tried to explain the objective reasons behind their actions.
    I understand the feelings of Israeli's against hamas, i just dont see that as reason enough to kill a thousand innocent paletinians. I am also against the seige and illegal occupation. That doesnt make me an antisemite!!
    I take it you dont care much for international law, that is where we disagree. if anyone is a bigot here it is you who propels the IDF rhetoric of making the offenders victims!!
    Does Israel have a right to exist?

    Do jews have a right to hate Hamas?

    Are illegal occupation of land (debatable anyway since land belongs to all humans, not simply Palestinians) an moral execuse to fire rockets at Israel?

    Hamas is a terrorist organisation as recognised by the UN, do you think international law supports them?

    Does Israel have a right to defend itself?

    Who fired first?

    Are you that blinded by hatred of the Jews that you honestly think the IDF targets civilians?



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    (Original post by merrill)
    Does Israel have a right to exist?

    Do jews have a right to hate Hamas?

    Are illegal occupation of land (debatable anyway since land belongs to all humans, not simply Palestinians) an moral execuse to fire rockets at Israel?

    Hamas is a terrorist organisation as recognised by the UN, do you think international law supports them?

    Does Israel have a right to defend itself?

    Who fired first?

    Are you that blinded by hatred of the Jews that you honestly think the IDF targets civilians?



    Posted from TSR Mobile
    yes Isreal has a right to exist

    Jews have a right to hate hamas though they would be better served by understanding why hamas exists(im guessing you dont wanna talk about that)

    the occupation is illegal according to the un and international law so u cant say its debatable(you are exposing your inbuilt racism and the fact that u dont think the palestinians deserve to be treated as equals with human rights in Palestine)

    and yes, it is a reason to resist, no county has ever been occupied or any peoples had thier rights suspended without resisting.

    International law clearly states that the occupation is illegal and constitutes crimes against humanity. furthermore it is a war crime to launch a war against people you are occupying.

    Israel does not have the right to defend itself so recklessly against a desperate imprisoned and occupied peoples whom they are occupying! the british government didnt behave this way against the IRA and thier terrorism!

    Israel fired 1st, they arrested several hamas leaders in the west bank and started an air offensive in Gaza with no evidence that it was hamas who killed the 3 jewish teenagers.

    And i never argued that the IDF is targeting civilians. But they are sure killing a lot of them in an attempt to kill hamas militants. I think its morally indefensible to kill a thousand civilians and make 200 thousand homeless in an attempt to kill a few among them.

    I have just one question for you. Do you believe the Palestinian people deserve either
    (i) A state of thier own where they can exercise sovereignty without foreign occupation
    (ii)To be treated as equals, have their human rights recognized and respected and the right to vote and be represented.
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    (Original post by banker 132)
    yes Isreal has a right to exist

    Jews have a right to hate hamas though they would be better served by understanding why hamas exists(im guessing you dont wanna talk about that)

    the occupation is illegal according to the un and international law so u cant say its debatable(you are exposing your inbuilt racism and the fact that u dont think the palestinians deserve to be treated as equals with human rights in Palestine)

    and yes, it is a reason to resist, no county has ever been occupied or any peoples had thier rights suspended without resisting.

    International law clearly states that the occupation is illegal and constitutes crimes against humanity. furthermore it is a war crime to launch a war against people you are occupying.

    Israel does not have the right to defend itself so recklessly against a desperate imprisoned and occupied peoples whom they are occupying! the british government didnt behave this way against the IRA and thier terrorism!

    Israel fired 1st, they arrested several hamas leaders in the west bank and started an air offensive in Gaza with no evidence that it was hamas who killed the 3 jewish teenagers.

    And i never argued that the IDF is targeting civilians. But they are sure killing a lot of them in an attempt to kill hamas militants. I think its morally indefensible to kill a thousand civilians and make 200 thousand homeless in an attempt to kill a few among them.

    I have just one question for you. Do you believe the Palestinian people deserve either
    (i) A state of thier own where they can exercise sovereignty without foreign occupation
    (ii)To be treated as equals, have their human rights recognized and respected and the right to vote and be represented.
    1) yes, but as a democracy that upholds liberal values. At the moment they are not, they are controlled by Hamas. Therefore they do not deserve their own state till Hamas is removed.
    2) same as above. As a liberal, free democracy yes, anything other than,no.

    I said Palestinians were being wronged in the sense that land is being taken from them. However, why can't Jews live there? (Peacefully)

    Its down to racism. Palestinians would never let Jews live there, whether it is through immigration or annextion. Imagine that in Britain? We don't allow Muslims to live here peacefully, so what alternative would they have? Annextion.

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    (Original post by banker 132)
    You keep talking about Hamas. What about the Palestinian Authority which still represents the Majority of Palestinians. It is becoming evident that you care little about the plight of the Palestinian people and are more obsessed with Hamas' founding charter and the narrative of the Israeli government.
    Do you see any wrong with the current state of affairs in the middle east on the part of the Isreali government. How do u justify the the Jewish settlements in the West Bank?
    You mean the same PLO that has acted in such a way as to get its people massacred over and over during the last 50 years?
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    (Original post by merrill)
    1) yes, but as a democracy that upholds liberal values. At the moment they are not, they are controlled by Hamas. Therefore they do not deserve their own state till Hamas is removed.
    2) same as above. As a liberal, free democracy yes, anything other than,no.

    I said Palestinians were being wronged in the sense that land is being taken from them. However, why can't Jews live there? (Peacefully)

    Its down to racism. Palestinians would never let Jews live there, whether it is through immigration or annextion. Imagine that in Britain? We don't allow Muslims to live here peacefully, so what alternative would they have? Annextion.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Okay now you are having a well reasoned thought out argument. I agree with you that there are problems with Islamic fundamentalism and dedicated antisemitism among the Palestinian population which poses a legitimate threat to Israel. Thats why I advocate the engagement of moderate pro-Palestinian organisations like the Palestinian authority instead of organisations like Hamas. The way to do this however is not to launch wars against the Palestinians with such high casualties as this only strengthens Hams and weakens moderates who appear weak for negotiating with what the Palestinians see as a murderous Jewish government in Israel.
    I cannot however defend the settlements in the west bank. there is no reasons not to allow Jews to live peacefully in Palestine, I agree, but the settlements are being built on land taken from Palestinians without compensation and they are more comparable to colonies than the peaceful immigration which u defend and i would agree with.
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    As much as I have generally dismissed claims of anti-Semitism (because often their purpose is to shut down debate), I have noticed this in small ways. When friends post about Palestine on Facebook, the intelligent ones tend to be fairly reasonable, but then you read the comments and they do not target the Israeli government but rather the people. It is much easier to view a country as an entity made of evil individuals than as an authority doing bad things in the name of protecting good people, which is basically what Israel is doing.

    Ironically, this actually highlights that maybe the idea of founding a country for members of a specific religion/ethnic group is actually kind of silly, because it creates a separation, and when that country does something wrong it makes it easier to see it as members of that religion/ethnic group doing something wrong.
 
 
 
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