India is about to hang someone.
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Original post by sachinisgod
oh.. see i was itching to bring this point up. U made it easier for me..
If the Harmandir Sahib is like a Mecca for sikhs, pure, holy and the definition of human devotion, WHY did Bhindranwale make his headquarters there? Did he not defile the sancitity of the Temple by taking weapons, anti tank missiles and machine guns? Why did he not take a stand someplace else and fight for his beliefs? Because he knew the Government would think 10000 times before entering the Sahib with weapons. Even on the night of the attack, the troops pleaded with the militants inside to come out peacefully and no one would be hurt.
To be truthfull i am totally against an attack on any holy place whether a temple, gurudwara or a mosque. But when this priviledge is missused by cowardly acts then tough measures are needed.
If the Harmandir Sahib is like a Mecca for sikhs, pure, holy and the definition of human devotion, WHY did Bhindranwale make his headquarters there? Did he not defile the sancitity of the Temple by taking weapons, anti tank missiles and machine guns? Why did he not take a stand someplace else and fight for his beliefs? Because he knew the Government would think 10000 times before entering the Sahib with weapons. Even on the night of the attack, the troops pleaded with the militants inside to come out peacefully and no one would be hurt.
To be truthfull i am totally against an attack on any holy place whether a temple, gurudwara or a mosque. But when this priviledge is missused by cowardly acts then tough measures are needed.
Actually Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale went to the AKAL TAKHT, a buliding inside the Golden Temple complex. Now this is not just any buliding, Akal Takht means 'Eternal throne', it is the POLITICAL HEADQUARTERS of Sikhism. And neither was Sant Bhindranwale any old Sikh, he was the head of Damdami Taksal - The premier, ancient organisation of the Sikh nation for eduation of scripture.
Secondly, there have ALWAYS been weapons in every part of the Golden Temple complex, ESPECIALLY the Akal Takht (Guns, rifles and various weapons belonging to the Gurus and Sikhs are housed here and displayed to the congregation daily).
Thirdly, Sant Ji did not 'take in' weapons to the complex, HE KEPT THEM WITH HIM ALL THE TIME. This is something all Sikhs do in the form of the Kirpan (sword), part of the 5ks as a command from the Gurus. It is a major tradition of Sikhism, (Eg. nihangs) for Sikhs, especially sikh leaders to keep even more arms than the minimum. This is an unbroken tradition from the times of the Gurus till now which India has had NO PROBLEM in accepting as long as its been a case of Sikhs protecting India/Hinduism from outside invaders. (The 'nihang license' which allows sikhs to keep guns is proof of this). It is a command of our Gurus.
Its the command of the tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji who is considered a hero by all of India, like I said no one had a problem when it was for protecting India... this is what Guru Gobind Singh said
I salute arrows and gun.
O Sword! you are powerful and relentless,
I salute thee. I salute the heavy
Gada and scimitar. Like them
no other hero is born.
(not for oppression or violence of course, but for defending the weak no matter what faith or background and fighting against oppression, as the 10th Guru Said 'when all means have failed, it is justified to raise the sword')
Like I said Sant Bhindranwale was carrying on the very tradition which protected India.
It is the belief of Sikhs that India was planning to attack the complex and various Gurdwaras around the country to crush sikhs, that is why Sant Ji went there, to defend it. If the govt was only after Sant Ji, why did they attack hundreds of other gurdwaras at the same time? Was Sant Ji in all of them? And why did they choose to attack on the day of the 5th Guru's martyrdom when there would be thousands more pilgrims than usual?
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by sachinisgod
oh.. see i was itching to bring this point up. U made it easier for me..
If the Harmandir Sahib is like a Mecca for sikhs, pure, holy and the definition of human devotion, WHY did Bhindranwale make his headquarters there? Did he not defile the sancitity of the Temple by taking weapons, anti tank missiles and machine guns? Why did he not take a stand someplace else and fight for his beliefs? Because he knew the Government would think 10000 times before entering the Sahib with weapons. Even on the night of the attack, the troops pleaded with the militants inside to come out peacefully and no one would be hurt.
To be truthfull i am totally against an attack on any holy place whether a temple, gurudwara or a mosque. But when this priviledge is missused by cowardly acts then tough measures are needed.
If the Harmandir Sahib is like a Mecca for sikhs, pure, holy and the definition of human devotion, WHY did Bhindranwale make his headquarters there? Did he not defile the sancitity of the Temple by taking weapons, anti tank missiles and machine guns? Why did he not take a stand someplace else and fight for his beliefs? Because he knew the Government would think 10000 times before entering the Sahib with weapons. Even on the night of the attack, the troops pleaded with the militants inside to come out peacefully and no one would be hurt.
To be truthfull i am totally against an attack on any holy place whether a temple, gurudwara or a mosque. But when this priviledge is missused by cowardly acts then tough measures are needed.
Why did Sant Ji take up arms? Have you ever thought about? Can you explain me why there are photos date 1982 of a dummy style attack in Dehradoon being practiced by the Indian army? Why does this 1982 event coincide with Sant Ji moving into Akaal Takht. All I can say is that the Indian governments propaganda machine has backfired shamingly, Sikhs, most of them Id like to think, still sing the name Singh Sahib Sant Giani Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale with respect.
Original post by dogra
Indian government is a moving entity depending on which person leads it. Rajiv and Indira got what they deserved, they are no more there.
Recently a memorial to the ninth master was installed near delhi, majority of people in India voted for PM Singh, to them PM Singh is a Sikh person, they see a Sikh person, where there any protests against appointment of PM Singh...
Justice is required for killing of all innocent human beings.
Rajoana has done his time for conspiracy, he should be released. Thought should also fall on 17 people killed with Beant, as well all other innocent people killed there.
Indian justice is not up to standards of UK, it will take time, made difficult with corrupt leaders, who are after stashing more away in their swiss banks accounts..
Recently a memorial to the ninth master was installed near delhi, majority of people in India voted for PM Singh, to them PM Singh is a Sikh person, they see a Sikh person, where there any protests against appointment of PM Singh...
Justice is required for killing of all innocent human beings.
Rajoana has done his time for conspiracy, he should be released. Thought should also fall on 17 people killed with Beant, as well all other innocent people killed there.
Indian justice is not up to standards of UK, it will take time, made difficult with corrupt leaders, who are after stashing more away in their swiss banks accounts..
much respect to you dogra for your words on baba rajoana, do you agree Beant was a butcher?
Original post by Rajoana
Actually Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale went to the AKAL TAKHT, a buliding inside the Golden Temple complex. Now this is not just any buliding, Akal Takht means 'Eternal throne', it is the POLITICAL HEADQUARTERS of Sikhism. And neither was Sant Bhindranwale any old Sikh, he was the head of Damdami Taksal - The premier, ancient organisation of the Sikh nation for eduation of scripture.
Secondly, there have ALWAYS been weapons in every part of the Golden Temple complex, ESPECIALLY the Akal Takht (Guns, rifles and various weapons belonging to the Gurus and Sikhs are housed here and displayed to the congregation daily).
Thirdly, Sant Ji did not 'take in' weapons to the complex, HE KEPT THEM WITH HIM ALL THE TIME. This is something all Sikhs do in the form of the Kirpan (sword), part of the 5ks as a command from the Gurus. It is a major tradition of Sikhism, (Eg. nihangs) for Sikhs, especially sikh leaders to keep even more arms than the minimum. This is an unbroken tradition from the times of the Gurus till now which India has had NO PROBLEM in accepting as long as its been a case of Sikhs protecting India/Hinduism from outside invaders. (The 'nihang license' which allows sikhs to keep guns is proof of this). It is a command of our Gurus.
It is the belief of Sikhs that India was planning to attack the complex and various Gurdwaras around the country to crush sikhs, that is why Sant Ji went there, to defend it. If the govt was only after Sant Ji, why did they attack hundreds of other gurdwaras at the same time? Was Sant Ji in all of them? And why did they choose to attack on the day of the 5th Guru's martyrdom when there would be thousands more pilgrims than usual?
Secondly, there have ALWAYS been weapons in every part of the Golden Temple complex, ESPECIALLY the Akal Takht (Guns, rifles and various weapons belonging to the Gurus and Sikhs are housed here and displayed to the congregation daily).
Thirdly, Sant Ji did not 'take in' weapons to the complex, HE KEPT THEM WITH HIM ALL THE TIME. This is something all Sikhs do in the form of the Kirpan (sword), part of the 5ks as a command from the Gurus. It is a major tradition of Sikhism, (Eg. nihangs) for Sikhs, especially sikh leaders to keep even more arms than the minimum. This is an unbroken tradition from the times of the Gurus till now which India has had NO PROBLEM in accepting as long as its been a case of Sikhs protecting India/Hinduism from outside invaders. (The 'nihang license' which allows sikhs to keep guns is proof of this). It is a command of our Gurus.
It is the belief of Sikhs that India was planning to attack the complex and various Gurdwaras around the country to crush sikhs, that is why Sant Ji went there, to defend it. If the govt was only after Sant Ji, why did they attack hundreds of other gurdwaras at the same time? Was Sant Ji in all of them? And why did they choose to attack on the day of the 5th Guru's martyrdom when there would be thousands more pilgrims than usual?
Source?
Original post by sachinisgod
Source?
i think it wsa 42, why did govt black out media if it thought its actions were just. It is in the hands of no govt to attack religious place of worship unless they have proof that crimes are being commited by the persons in the shrine. Lets not forget govt arrested and released Sant Ji because they had no evidence. Everyone seems to diss Sant Ji without proper solid evidence, and leave it to whisky jisky people like Khushwant or day dreamers like Tully to tell the story.
Original post by sachinisgod
Source?
got the number wrong... but 70 others atleast: http://library.thinkquest.org/C005706/sikhs_and_india-operation_blue_star.php
The questions remain, why attack 70 other gurdwaras? and if they wanted only sant ji why did they invade on a day there were going to be thousands more visitors than usual?
this debate is old the people who look deeply into the subject instead of relying on pitfully indian media know what Indian govt did post 1978 is attack on sikh nation, baba rajoana as fighter for sikh nation is our prisoner of war
Original post by okapobcfc08
i think it wsa 42, why did govt black out media if it thought its actions were just. It is in the hands of no govt to attack religious place of worship unless they have proof that crimes are being commited by the persons in the shrine. Lets not forget govt arrested and released Sant Ji because they had no evidence. Everyone seems to diss Sant Ji without proper solid evidence, and leave it to whisky jisky people like Khushwant or day dreamers like Tully to tell the story.
Im sorry what is wsa 42? and also is there conclusive reports of damage and eyewitnesses to back that claim?
Original post by Rajoana
got the number wrong... but 70 others atleast: http://library.thinkquest.org/C005706/sikhs_and_india-operation_blue_star.php
The questions remain, why attack 70 other gurdwaras? and if they wanted only sant ji why did they invade on a day there were going to be thousands more visitors than usual?
The questions remain, why attack 70 other gurdwaras? and if they wanted only sant ji why did they invade on a day there were going to be thousands more visitors than usual?
Im sorry its not a credible page which proves nothing. Anyone can make a webpage, and this one is definately biased and the language used is not what rational people would use.
Original post by sachinisgod
Im sorry what is wsa 42? and also is there conclusive reports of damage and eyewitnesses to back that claim?
Please read the independent publication: Report to the Nation: Oppression in Punjab, U.S. Edition: January 1986 by Amiya Rao, Aurbindo Ghose, Sunil Bhattacharya, Tejinder Ahuja and N.D.Pancholi
it can be found here: http://www.sikhfreedom.com/1984.html
Interesting quote from it:
"The common feeling in Punjab is that it was indeed not an Operation against Bhindranwale and other so called terrorists according to the Government, it was an attack on the Sikhs "to teach them a lesson" so that they would never again raise their head or voice of protest."
Original post by sachinisgod
Im sorry its not a credible page which proves nothing. Anyone can make a webpage, and this one is definately biased and the language used is not what rational people would use.
Its not a Sikh site, its an academic resource, anyway it gives it source:
Inderjit Singh Jaijee, Politics of Genocide: Punjab 1984-1994 (Chandigarh: Baba Publishers, 1995) p.29.
It is a VERY well known fact that the other Gurdwaras were attacked, its nothing new.
Original post by Rajoana
Its not a Sikh site, its an academic resource, anyway it gives it source:
Inderjit Singh Jaijee, Politics of Genocide: Punjab 1984-1994 (Chandigarh: Baba Publishers, 1995) p.29.
It is a VERY well known fact that the other Gurdwaras were attacked, its nothing new.
Inderjit Singh Jaijee, Politics of Genocide: Punjab 1984-1994 (Chandigarh: Baba Publishers, 1995) p.29.
It is a VERY well known fact that the other Gurdwaras were attacked, its nothing new.
allow him, this thread is about Baba Rajoana
okapobcfc08 and Rajoana... one final question before i leave this thread coz its getting a bit boring now.
Will u ever or want to find it in you to forgive and forget the past. Move into the future by having mutual respect for a fellow countryman. Sikhs and Hindus have been like brothers and sisters for centuries and the actions of politicians and politics is putting this relationship in jeopardy and it will do more harm than good.
Peace out
WGJK WGDF
Jai shree ram
Will u ever or want to find it in you to forgive and forget the past. Move into the future by having mutual respect for a fellow countryman. Sikhs and Hindus have been like brothers and sisters for centuries and the actions of politicians and politics is putting this relationship in jeopardy and it will do more harm than good.
Peace out
WGJK WGDF
Jai shree ram
Original post by sachinisgod
okapobcfc08 and Rajoana... one final question before i leave this thread coz its getting a bit boring now.
Will u ever or want to find it in you to forgive and forget the past. Move into the future by having mutual respect for a fellow countryman. Sikhs and Hindus have been like brothers and sisters for centuries and the actions of politicians and politics is putting this relationship in jeopardy and it will do more harm than good.
Peace out
WGJK WGDF
Jai shree ram
Will u ever or want to find it in you to forgive and forget the past. Move into the future by having mutual respect for a fellow countryman. Sikhs and Hindus have been like brothers and sisters for centuries and the actions of politicians and politics is putting this relationship in jeopardy and it will do more harm than good.
Peace out
WGJK WGDF
Jai shree ram
F*** off my a55 forgive and forget you crazy, its easy to comment when your not on the receiving end
Original post by Rajoana
Its not a Sikh site, its an academic resource, anyway it gives it source:
Inderjit Singh Jaijee, Politics of Genocide: Punjab 1984-1994 (Chandigarh: Baba Publishers, 1995) p.29.
It is a VERY well known fact that the other Gurdwaras were attacked, its nothing new.
Inderjit Singh Jaijee, Politics of Genocide: Punjab 1984-1994 (Chandigarh: Baba Publishers, 1995) p.29.
It is a VERY well known fact that the other Gurdwaras were attacked, its nothing new.
rajoana you want to delete the 1984 posts we are diverting attention away you want to do it?
I doubt it will actually happen. India never follows through with executions. They haven't got around to killing this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajmal_Kasab yet, even though a court upheld his sentence over a year ago. I think and hope that it'll be suspended again, or even better commuted to life in prison.
Original post by sachinisgod
okapobcfc08 and Rajoana... one final question before i leave this thread coz its getting a bit boring now.
Will u ever or want to find it in you to forgive and forget the past. Move into the future by having mutual respect for a fellow countryman. Sikhs and Hindus have been like brothers and sisters for centuries and the actions of politicians and politics is putting this relationship in jeopardy and it will do more harm than good.
Peace out
WGJK WGDF
Jai shree ram
Will u ever or want to find it in you to forgive and forget the past. Move into the future by having mutual respect for a fellow countryman. Sikhs and Hindus have been like brothers and sisters for centuries and the actions of politicians and politics is putting this relationship in jeopardy and it will do more harm than good.
Peace out
WGJK WGDF
Jai shree ram
We will forgive and forget when its actually over, the events of 1984 continue to this day without break.
we will forgive and forget when
-the hundreds of sikhs rotting in indian jails for years for no apparent reason are released (check out www.prisonerwelfare.com) for more info
-the instigators of the 1984 anti sikh pogroms are convincted and justice served
-the widows of all innocent sikhs killed are treated with humanity and not left to rot in ghettos while their children are forced into prostitution and drug addiction
-when the death penalty stops being applied specially to sikhs
-when sikhs are actually recognised as an independent religion in the Indian Constitution, allowing us to marry in india without being called a hindu on the marriage certificate
-and a whole host more of the most basic demands.
I have nothing against Hindus and neither does the Sikh community as a whole.
Original post by okapobcfc08
F*** off my a55 forgive and forget you crazy, its easy to comment when your not on the receiving end
oh yeah we have never been on the receiving end
.. forced conversions and murders by mughals. Attroctites by the Britishers during the Raj, countless terrorist attacks against temples and people in general. Getting pulled of buses and shot, trains blown up in Punjab. My dear this is all in India, I wont even go into the persucutions and attacks faced by minorites in Pakistan, Bangladesh etc.
By logic we should never forget 600 years worth of injustice but erm... we do because we want to move on from the past.
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