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Has immigration made Britain a less tolerant place? watch

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    (Original post by Lady Comstock)
    *By immigration I mean the type Britain in particular has experienced over the years.

    There seems to be a view that immigration has made Britain more tolerant because it has made us more diverse and multicultural, but I think we are witnessing the opposite.

    Large, unskilled immigration has driven up anti-immigrant sentiment, making Britain a less hospitable place for migrants who do want to contribute.

    It has led to greater community tensions, especially between particular religious groups.

    Thinking of the countries who have made up immigrant communities it has arguably increased conservative attitudes in terms of homosexuality, feminism, abortion, etc.

    So what went wrong?
    Well given anti immigration sentiment is generally negatively correlated with number of immigrants in an area in this country I'd say its probably not really the fault of the immigration itself,and more that immigration is being used as a scapegoat for the ills of the working classes. Of course it's easier to blame immigrants than actually build more houses, or admit the government was wrong to sell off all the social housing stock and not replace it.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Well given anti immigration sentiment is generally negatively correlated with number of immigrants in an area in this country I'd say its probably not really the fault of the immigration itself,and more that immigration is being used as a scapegoat for the ills of the working classes. Of course it's easier to blame immigrants than actually build more houses, or admit the government was wrong to sell off all the social housing stock and not replace it.
    What about the other points I made?
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    I would say the opposite.
    Can you think of any other country, with the possible exception of Sweden that would of stood by for over 15 yrs and watched thousands of young English girls being systematically trafficked and raped by gangs of Pakistani men?
    How tolerant do you have to be.
    What do you imagine the response would have been from the Pakistani community had it been gangs of white men raping their children?
    Britain is without doubt one of the most tolerant countries in the world. Something we should be proud of.
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    (Original post by Lady Comstock)
    What about the other points I made?
    I covered pretty much everything. There's far more anti immigration sentiment and tension up in white rural Yorkshire than in actual multicultural cities such as Birmingham, which are pretty harmonious.
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    (Original post by caravaggio2)
    I would say the opposite.
    Can you think of any other country, with the possible exception of Sweden that would of stood by for over 15 yrs and watched thousands of young English girls being systematically trafficked and raped by gangs of Pakistani men?
    How tolerant do you have to be.
    What do you imagine the response would have been from the Pakistani community had it been gangs of white men raping their children?
    Britain is without doubt one of the most tolerant countries in the world. Something we should be proud of.
    We should be proud of the grooming gangs?
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Well given anti immigration sentiment is generally negatively correlated with number of immigrants in an area in this country I'd say its probably not really the fault of the immigration itself,and more that immigration is being used as a scapegoat for the ills of the working classes. Of course it's easier to blame immigrants than actually build more houses, or admit the government was wrong to sell off all the social housing stock and not replace it.
    and its easier to build more houses than to sort out the financial system :fuhrer:
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    No, the UK has got more tolerant in recent years.

    In the 1970s, it was common to have adverts in the newspaper for properties to rent where people would put "no blacks, no Irish"

    In the 1980s, in football grounds people were still doing monkey chants at black players and throwing bananas, the media would do a witch hunt on celebrities to expose them as being gay, you had prominent people in the public eye making statements about gays being punished for their sinful activities by the HIV epidemic

    Since the 1990s racist, homophobia, also sexism has generally been disappearing from mainstream society, it hasn't gone completely but it has been diminished. But this is also the time where there has been more immigration.

    What you have now with the internet, is a small and angry group of people who really don't like various groups, using the internet to constantly talk about it. This creates the impression to themselves that the whole country shares their views.

    As an example, look on TSR, there are a lot of threads about immigration but they are always posted by the same subset of people. Any time you see a thread posted about migration look at the OP's posting history, I bet there will be a theme there - recurrent threads posted. This is also true with the "anti-feminism backlash", most people in society never bother getting stressed about feminism but on TSR there are a lot of threads about it. Again next time you see a thread about feminism, click on the OP's user posting history and there will be a recurrent theme of multiple threads about feminism.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    We should be proud of the grooming gangs?
    No sorry, i meant we should be proud that we didn't drag random Pakistani men out into the street and beat them to death or burned them alive, which I genuinely think would have been the response of Pakistanis against white men over there or even here come to that.
    We should certainly be ashamed of the establishments response. It is still going on come to that.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    What you have now with the internet, is a small and angry group of people who really don't like various groups, using the internet to constantly talk about it. This creates the impression to themselves that the whole country shares their views.
    I would agree and say I've noticed that. Its very difficult in the internet age to get a grasp of the scale of anything, because such a small number of 'content' creators can give the impression of something being much larger than it is. I think certainly in the news there are political/social debates where the coverage would make it seem like 50-50 issue where the reality on the ground is it nothing like that kind of an even split. Its actually quite a dangerous issue in some ways when you consider the market share of some of the large outlets, and points to the importance of platforms such as twitter and youtube.
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    (Original post by Lady Comstock)
    *By immigration I mean the type Britain in particular has experienced over the years.

    There seems to be a view that immigration has made Britain more tolerant because it has made us more diverse and multicultural, but I think we are witnessing the opposite.

    Large, unskilled immigration has driven up anti-immigrant sentiment, making Britain a less hospitable place for migrants who do want to contribute.

    It has led to greater community tensions, especially between particular religious groups.

    Thinking of the countries who have made up immigrant communities it has arguably increased conservative attitudes in terms of homosexuality, feminism, abortion, etc.

    So what went wrong?
    Is there any evidence for any of this? I mean, empirical evidence not based on hearsay or anecdote.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    I covered pretty much everything. There's far more anti immigration sentiment and tension up in white rural Yorkshire than in actual multicultural cities such as Birmingham, which are pretty harmonious.
    Funny that the more immigrants in a place, the more happy and tolerant about immigration they tend to be.It is almost as if they don't want to hate themselves.
    Come on, of course that will be the case. Look how much of London is Muslim/from the EU; of course it will be the most "harmonious" as you called it.
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    Quite the opposite. I think that immigration has made us more tolerant to the point that it's counterproductive. Speaking out against immigration is seen as taboo, and political parties like UKIP - whose primary purpose is to get the UK out of the EU - are seen as racist because they go against the British norm of keeping quiet and not speaking out against important issues.

    Thinking of the countries who have made up immigrant communities it has arguably increased conservative attitudes in terms of homosexuality, feminism, abortion, etc.
    Can't say I agree with that. I'm guessing that you're referring to Islam here, and considering that Muslims makes up barely 5% of the UK population, I doubt we've seen an increase in conservative attitudes.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    No, the UK has got more tolerant in recent years.

    In the 1970s, it was common to have adverts in the newspaper for properties to rent where people would put "no blacks, no Irish"

    In the 1980s, in football grounds people were still doing monkey chants at black players and throwing bananas, the media would do a witch hunt on celebrities to expose them as being gay, you had prominent people in the public eye making statements about gays being punished for their sinful activities by the HIV epidemic

    Since the 1990s racist, homophobia, also sexism has generally been disappearing from mainstream society, it hasn't gone completely but it has been diminished. But this is also the time where there has been more immigration.

    What you have now with the internet, is a small and angry group of people who really don't like various groups, using the internet to constantly talk about it. This creates the impression to themselves that the whole country shares their views.

    As an example, look on TSR, there are a lot of threads about immigration but they are always posted by the same subset of people. Any time you see a thread posted about migration look at the OP's posting history, I bet there will be a theme there - recurrent threads posted. This is also true with the "anti-feminism backlash", most people in society never bother getting stressed about feminism but on TSR there are a lot of threads about it. Again next time you see a thread about feminism, click on the OP's user posting history and there will be a recurrent theme of multiple threads about feminism.
    This is so true, the Internet does make problems seem a lot bigger than they are in real life
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    Funny that the more immigrants in a place, the more happy and tolerant about immigration they tend to be.It is almost as if they don't want to hate themselves.
    Come on, of course that will be the case. Look how much of London is Muslim/from the EU; of course it will be the most "harmonious" as you called it.
    Except this is also among British people in that area?
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    Why don't they just live under water instead? Plenty of room there.
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    It kind of seems like it to me, just from what I read online.

    I used to hear British people bragging online back in the early 2000s about how tolerant they were of foreigners/immigrants in Britain and making fun of people in my country for complaining about Hispanics stealing our jobs, etc. Let's just say I haven't heard that particular kind of sentiment from a British person in several years now.

    Even if not all of them are on board with such views, it does seem like fewer of them are willing to criticise Americans for being uncomfortable with high levels of immigration, or at least they criticise the view on principle rather than implying it's about nationality. What's not said may be more telling in this case.

    I remember another guy from Texas having an argument that went sort of like this:

    Texan guy: "I admit we have some issues with racism here, but don't you think you'd get tired of crowd after crowd of unskilled people that can't speak your language crossing in because the federal government won't let you control the borders, and making everything crowded while straining social services to the point that people born here can't get help when they need it? I mean, surely you can see why some people that are out of work would be a bit frustrated by the situation".

    British guy: "No, we're more compassionate than Americans. We would give until it hurts".

    Texan guy: "Well, I reckon I would have to concede that you're the better people in terms of charity. Bless your heart".

    I really can't imagine two people having that same argument today.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    No, the UK has got more tolerant in recent years.

    In the 1970s, it was common to have adverts in the newspaper for properties to rent where people would put "no blacks, no Irish"

    In the 1980s, in football grounds people were still doing monkey chants at black players and throwing bananas, the media would do a witch hunt on celebrities to expose them as being gay, you had prominent people in the public eye making statements about gays being punished for their sinful activities by the HIV epidemic

    Since the 1990s racist, homophobia, also sexism has generally been disappearing from mainstream society, it hasn't gone completely but it has been diminished. But this is also the time where there has been more immigration.

    What you have now with the internet, is a small and angry group of people who really don't like various groups, using the internet to constantly talk about it. This creates the impression to themselves that the whole country shares their views.

    As an example, look on TSR, there are a lot of threads about immigration but they are always posted by the same subset of people. Any time you see a thread posted about migration look at the OP's posting history, I bet there will be a theme there - recurrent threads posted. This is also true with the "anti-feminism backlash", most people in society never bother getting stressed about feminism but on TSR there are a lot of threads about it. Again next time you see a thread about feminism, click on the OP's user posting history and there will be a recurrent theme of multiple threads about feminism.
    say what.....?
    http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.a...-level-concern
    "Figure 2 shows that large majorities in the 2013 British Social Attitudes survey endorsed reducing immigration. Indeed, over 56% chose 'reduced a lot', while 77% chose either 'reduced a lot' or 'reduced a little'."( arguably attitudes have worsened still since 2013)
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    No, the UK has got more tolerant in recent years.

    In the 1970s, it was common to have adverts in the newspaper for properties to rent where people would put "no blacks, no Irish"

    In the 1980s, in football grounds people were still doing monkey chants at black players and throwing bananas, the media would do a witch hunt on celebrities to expose them as being gay, you had prominent people in the public eye making statements about gays being punished for their sinful activities by the HIV epidemic

    Since the 1990s racist, homophobia, also sexism has generally been disappearing from mainstream society, it hasn't gone completely but it has been diminished. But this is also the time where there has been more immigration.
    I would say that between the late 1990s to the present day, our level of "tolerance" has been pretty much the same. Any progress has been quite minor. Sure, gay people can now get married, but I bet a gay couple holding hands would get the same reaction walking down Doncaster high street as they would have done in 1995. Day to day, the level of tolerance has remained the same in the past decade or so, in my opinion.

    Now what we didn't have in the late 1990s or even 2000s was such a large anti-immigrant sentiment or a party to the right of the Tories on immigration becoming the de facto third party. Does that signify an increase in tolerance?

    What you have now with the internet, is a small and angry group of people who really don't like various groups, using the internet to constantly talk about it. This creates the impression to themselves that the whole country shares their views.

    As an example, look on TSR, there are a lot of threads about immigration but they are always posted by the same subset of people. Any time you see a thread posted about migration look at the OP's posting history, I bet there will be a theme there - recurrent threads posted. This is also true with the "anti-feminism backlash", most people in society never bother getting stressed about feminism but on TSR there are a lot of threads about it. Again next time you see a thread about feminism, click on the OP's user posting history and there will be a recurrent theme of multiple threads about feminism.
    This just reads as one big ad hominem attack.

    I would say people in the real world are actually more extreme than those on TSR. Most criticism of immigration in the public realm is derived from 'The Other', whereas I often see decent arguments on TSR in relation to public services, social cohesion, etc.
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    (Original post by caravaggio2)
    No sorry, i meant we should be proud that we didn't drag random Pakistani men out into the street and beat them to death or burned them alive, which I genuinely think would have been the response of Pakistanis against white men over there or even here come to that.
    Obviously that shouldn't be done to random Pakistani men, but all those involved should certainly meet sticky ends.
 
 
 
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