Do you support financial abortion?

True, but that's not much of a protection. They are compelled if the primary caregiver compels them and they don't have any legal protection from that (quite the opposite). It's a quibble that doesn't appear to be relevant to the discussion (I'm happy for you to explain why you think it is relevant).

I have no clue what you are talking about.

Initially, I assumed you talking about "Because if you have sex then you know a child can be born" and " men MUST be financially responsible for a child that a woman has chosen to have in the knowledge that the man does not want it ".

So now you are claiming that the former is the same as the latter but not an argument for the latter?

Well, you said "Men MUST be financially responsible"

So, that is false. Unless, you just random place words in capital letters that are irrelevant.

Likewise

I'm going to ask the question for the third time, what is meaningfully different between the statements:

"why should he have to be responsible for that just because he had sex?"

and

why "men MUST be financially responsible for a child that a woman has chosen to have in the knowledge that the man does not want it "?

Okay. Men MUST be financially responsible if the mother wants them to be. It's a quibble of a point, how is it relevant. It's like picking me up on poor grammar.

Ohhh.....Well, the first one isn't a statement.

Anyway, one is about responsibility for the consequence, the other is about financial / legal responsibility. That is not to say the two are not linked though.

I can be responsible for killing someone. It does not mean I am legally responsible.

That isn't what you said initially.

Anyway, yes and vice versa. Women must be financially responsible if the father wants them to be.

Okay good, we're getting somewhere. I'd say in this case they are related very strongly, I'm saying that men as a matter of fact have a minuscule amount of responsibility when it comes to a pregnancy compared to that of women. I'm saying that this is so minuscule that men who do not want children (and for whom this has been clear since before the couple had sex, it is not okay for a man to say he wants children have sex with the intention of having them and then a few months down the line say he doesn't want them anymore) should not be able to be compelled to be responsible (in any way) for them. With this though I think they also must relinquish all and any parental rights and that these cannot be reinstated at a later date.

Okay good, we're getting somewhere. I'd say in this case they are related very strongly, I'm saying that men as a matter of fact have a minuscule amount of responsibility when it comes to a pregnancy compared to that of women. I'm saying that this is so minuscule that men who do not want children (and for whom this has been clear since before the couple had sex, it is not okay for a man to say he wants children have sex with the intention of having them and then a few months down the line say he doesn't want them anymore) should not be able to be compelled to be responsible (in any way) for them. With this though I think they also must relinquish all and any parental rights and that these cannot be reinstated at a later date.

I was correcting my point..

Only in the situation where the Father is the primary care giver, which can't happen if the woman chooses not to give birth to the child.

So you would also agree that men should have no parental rights ?

I have said it before and I will say it again. There is no such thing as parental rights, only parental responsibility. The child has rights and one of those is the right to form a relationship with both parents unless it is not in the best interests of the child.

The wishes of the father to not pay for his offspring do not trump the rights of the child under any circumstances and nor should they. Family law should work in the best interests of the child regardless of the parents desires.

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If it has been made clear that they want children I think a few things happen. Or if there is an accident and they say yes I will be responsible for this child then I believe they should have parental rights.

The problem we're coming up against in with this issue is that the solutions aren't clear cut. There are grey areas, what I'm proposing is what I think is the most fair situation. Is it a perfect situation? No, but I think it's pretty good.

Of course there have rights. You have the right to contact with your child, you have the right to decide where your child goes to school to name but two. The child has rights too of course and generally these are greater in number and significance, but to say a parent doesn't have rights is nonsense.

You just said that " men as a matter of fact have a minuscule amount of responsibility when it comes to a pregnancy compared to that of women".

So, then why bother giving men the choice at all? Why not leave to the person with all of the responsibility?

A man should have no choice in the matter till the woman decides to and that point, he can decide to be responsible or not. That sounds like the most fair solution to me.

Nope. The parents have responsibility. The welfare of the child is the paramount consideration. The child has a right to form a relationship with both parents. The parents do not have a right to see their child.

Parents have the responsibility to make a decision on the school their child goes to. The paramount consideration again is the best interests of the child.

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They have both. Their responsibility often coincides with their rights.

Yeah I can agree with that (assuming you mean if a woman decides to go ahead with a pregnancy or not then at that point a man can decide if he wants to be involved or not).

It's a difficult thing to properly argue, but to summarise I think it's unfair to say a man must be responsible for a child he helps conceive but I think it's similarly unfair to say he shouldn't be able to have contact/help raise a child if he wants to. Though I think with both situations of deciding to be involved with a childs life and deciding not to be that whatever decision you make is binding. If you want nothing to do with a child you can't change your mind, nor can you if you choose to, you should be bound to that decision.

Parents have responsibilities and not rights. I've studied this so I do know what I'm talking about.

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