The Student Room Group

How are two people in the same race?

What determines if two are the same race? Like are all white people the same race? Is an Israeli and a Palestinian the same? Or like Pakistani and Bengali?

Also how would this work if you're mixed, I am quite an unusual mix as my parents are also mixed race and some of my grandparents are mixed too. So who would I say is also my race? Am I the same race as all other mixed people, or would someone have to be the same mix as me to be my race? Like am I in an entirely separate race then? How does this categorising like really work?

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Reply 1
Original post by Dinasaurus
What determines if two are the same race? Like are all white people the same race? Is an Israeli and a Palestinian the same? Or like Pakistani and Bengali?

Also how would this work if you're mixed, I am quite an unusual mix as my parents are also mixed race and some of my grandparents are mixed too. So who would I say is also my race? Am I the same race as all other mixed people, or would someone have to be the same mix as me to be my race? Like am I in an entirely separate race then? How does this categorising like really work?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies


A subspecies is a taxonomic rank below species the only recognized rank in the zoological code,[9] and one of three main ranks below species in the botanical code.[8] When geographically separate populations of a species exhibit recognizable phenotypic differences, biologists may identify these as separate subspecies; a subspecies is a recognized local variant of a species.[10] Botanists and mycologists have the choice of ranks lower than subspecies, such as variety (varietas) or form (forma), to recognize smaller differences between populations.[8]
(edited 5 years ago)


There have been numerous attempts to divide the human species according to biological definitions of "race". None of them have won acceptance, because we are such an interconnected species, that breeds freely without significant reproductive isolation. The result is that there is a relatively low level of genetic difference between human groups and no sign of the kind of geographic or genetic isolation that one sees in other species where genetic divergence might be occurring. For example, there is less divergence between human population groups than there is between African ape populations, even though we are spread out across the whole planet compared with the much smaller range of African apes.

As a further complication, genetic variation in human is "nested" e.g. ifwe try to distinguish between Sub-Saharan African and European populations, we find that genetic diversity within Europe is a subset of that within Sub-Saharan Africa. All human populations are in fact subsets of the SSA set. So Europeans end up being "sub-races" within a SSA "race", which makes the whole concept extremely difficult to work with and certainly incompatible with the idea of mutually exclusive groups.

There is certainly some geographic variation. For some specific, narrowly defined purposes e.g. predicting the likely occurrence of specific genetic disorders, or for tracking the movement of some population groups in history, we can use the frequency of specific markers in a useful way. But these are not markers of "species", "subspecies" or "races" as understood in biology. It is more useful to consider "race" in humans as a continuous variable like height, and this is what accords with the lived experience of most people. In humans (and some other species) "race" is a cultural/ethnic category rather than a biological one.
Reply 3
I don't think subspecies and races are equivalent, so if its a spectrum, are we all a different race to each other except from identical twins?
Original post by Dinasaurus
I don't think subspecies and races are equivalent, so if its a spectrum, are we all a different race to each other except from identical twins?


The point is really that the concept of "race" makes no biological sense in the human species. For some animals it does - for example, where populations which can interbreed get geographically isolated, develop habits or diets that are distinctive and then cease interbreeding. But despite the fact that we are spread all over the world, and for short periods of time some populations have become quite isolated, humans have never stopped interbreeding for any length of time. So we have never formed true biological "races".
Reply 5
Original post by OxFossil
The point is really that the concept of "race" makes no biological sense in the human species. For some animals it does - for example, where populations which can interbreed get geographically isolated, develop habits or diets that are distinctive and then cease interbreeding. But despite the fact that we are spread all over the world, and for short periods of time some populations have become quite isolated, humans have never stopped interbreeding for any length of time. So we have never formed true biological "races".


I am aware that there's no biological concept of race, its a point I tend to argue to others but it still exists culturally.
It's been said already but the concept of humans being divided into biologically discrete 'races' is highly problematic and has long since been abandoned by most in orthodox scholarship. The mistake that is made most often is to observe what is geographic variation and treat that as evidence of racial 'grouping' when it is just variation.
Original post by Dinasaurus
I am aware that there's no biological concept of race, its a point I tend to argue to others but it still exists culturally.


Agreed. "Ethnicity" makes more sense if we want to talk about a shared cultural heritage, origin myth, history, language, symbolic systems like religion and ritual, art and physical appearance. Then we know what we are talking about without confusing the issue with bad science.
(edited 5 years ago)
Reply 8
Original post by Wōden


Absolutely ridiculous. Humans are by no means divided into subspecies. Genetic studies show that any two humans from across the world are way more closely related than two chimpanzees from groups just a few miles away.

In fact, a more scientifically sound argument would be to suggest that all modern human (as Homo sapiens sapiens) belong to one subspecies (Being the only extant member of the species Homo sapiens).
(edited 5 years ago)


Idiotic responses like this demonstrate why we really need to improve the standard of scientific teaching in schools.
Reply 10
Original post by OxFossil
There have been numerous attempts to divide the human species according to biological definitions of "race". None of them have won acceptance, because we are such an interconnected species, that breeds freely without significant reproductive isolation. The result is that there is a relatively low level of genetic difference between human groups and no sign of the kind of geographic or genetic isolation that one sees in other species where genetic divergence might be occurring. For example, there is less divergence between human population groups than there is between African ape populations, even though we are spread out across the whole planet compared with the much smaller range of African apes.

As a further complication, genetic variation in human is "nested" e.g. ifwe try to distinguish between Sub-Saharan African and European populations, we find that genetic diversity within Europe is a subset of that within Sub-Saharan Africa. All human populations are in fact subsets of the SSA set. So Europeans end up being "sub-races" within a SSA "race", which makes the whole concept extremely difficult to work with and certainly incompatible with the idea of mutually exclusive groups.

There is certainly some geographic variation. For some specific, narrowly defined purposes e.g. predicting the likely occurrence of specific genetic disorders, or for tracking the movement of some population groups in history, we can use the frequency of specific markers in a useful way. But these are not markers of "species", "subspecies" or "races" as understood in biology. It is more useful to consider "race" in humans as a continuous variable like height, and this is what accords with the lived experience of most people. In humans (and some other species) "race" is a cultural/ethnic category rather than a biological one.


Oh come on, you are employing a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics here. There are blindingly obvious phenotypical differences between human sub-populations based upon their traditional geographical locations.
Reply 11
Original post by Sulfolobus
Idiotic responses like this demonstrate why we really need to improve the standard of scientific teaching in schools.


Alright, tell me why human populations shouldn't/can't be divided into subspecies like literally every other animal on the planet?
Original post by Wōden
Alright, tell me why human populations shouldn't/can't be divided into subspecies like literally every other animal on the planet?


Relying on phenotypic differences runs into problems very quickly. Which is why systematics has moved away from this since alternative tools became available in the 1970s, at least for extant groups.

If you want to establish a Homo sapiens taxonomic rank you'll have to start off with a robust phylogenetic analysis based on the wealth of NGS data we have. Yet we know that the data wouldn't support such branching.

OxFossil was getting at this. In fact their post was essentially the consensus view within modern human genetics. You dismissed it as mental gymnastics, which implies it went above your head.

Hence the need for better science teaching in school.
Original post by Wōden
Alright, tell me why human populations shouldn't/can't be divided into subspecies like literally every other animal on the planet?


Human variations are clinal and non-coterminous. It follows that 'races' as traditionally conceived are imaginatively constructed. It's possible to claim there are three races, four, seven, thirty-two, sixty or whatever, depending on what criteria you arbitrarily pick to 'identify' your racial groupings and their imagined points of 'division'.
Original post by Wōden
Oh come on, you are employing a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics here. There are blindingly obvious phenotypical differences between human sub-populations based upon their traditional geographical locations.


I know. It's like that ridiculous level of mental gymnastics that physicists use to show that the Earth circles the Sun when it's blindingly obvious that the Sun revolves around the Earth.

Or people who fail to see that, based on blindingly obvious phenotypic evidence, you are actually a very old man with a wonky hat rather than a young man with a wonky view of science and society.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Wōden
Alright, tell me why human populations shouldn't/can't be divided into subspecies like literally every other animal on the planet?


This is far from the case. Evolution relies upon genetic (and phenotypic) variation arising in every generation of a sexual species. Should this consistently result in reproductive splitting, every species would end up being divided into innumerable "subspecies". In fact, most species maintain reproductive integrity whilst accommodating greater or lesser degrees of genetic and phenotypic variation. Here's a nice visual example of phenotypic variation which involves striking differences - they are male Ruffs (Philomachus pugens), which appear very different in colour but which are in fact part of the same breeding population. Not only are there no subspecies here, but it turns out that the variation in ruff colouration has only a small genetic component. Even more interesting is that the bottom row of pix include 3 breeding males who "disguise" themselves as females...still all the same species, with no "subspecies" involved.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4323066/figure/F1/?report=objectonly
(edited 5 years ago)
There are generally a few well-accepted racial groupings: East Asian, European and African. The remaining are technically an admixture of the three, but Middle Eastern and Indian are two other major racial groupings that have widespread acceptance.

I personally think it's wrong to racially group Pakistanis with South Asians. While some of them share racial/cultural similarities with people in the North-West of India, they are fundamentally close to the Middle East to the point it's hard to tell where they're from sometimes. It's not like most Indians are ambiguous whether they're Indian or Middle Eastern - most people still think Osama Bin Laden was a fully racially Pakistani for example despite being Arab.
Bengali look more Indian in that it's widespread to mistake a Bangladeshi for a South Indian. I'm Indian and I often find it near impossible to racially place a Pakistani by visually looking at one, I would think it was "foreign" or Middle Eastern. I think people look for similar face shapes in North West India, near the border with Pakistan, and then claim that all Indians look like Pakistanis, when in fact most Pakistanis look too foreign.
Reply 18
Race is a generalisation of a group of people based on their phenotype and stereotypical what they look like, which clearly distinguishes from other groups of people and races,
Asain people- indian, pakistani- they have the same phenotype- they're the same race and look distinguishable from other groups, same with whites, same with blacks. Obviously not everyone in a race is going to going completely the same but its about holding the general phenotype of that race. There are genetically differences between races obvs other wise all races would look the same. Its not a social construct imo at least.

Mixed race isnt really a race on itself its a sub-race but i consider it to be a race with the same racial mixes because you still hold they same phenotype, the same 'look'. You would be generational mixed, although i dont know which type. I consider someone who is the same mix as me to be the same race as me.
Here is a list of things you can surmise about a person once you know their race:


That concludes the list of things you can surmise about a person once you know their race.

So who caaaaares?

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