Identifying as a gender does not mean you are that gender.

Original post by Stiff Little Fingers

And you've got no justification for saying it's a shoddy argument. It's not exactly the same, it's what's called a point of comparison, focusing purely on the point that identity can be inconsistent with narrow definitions without being controversial...

Because as far as we know there's a physical basis for gender identity while nations are just arbitrary lines in the sand.

Child :laugh:

I'm older than you and actually know what I'm talking about. Behave.

There is no physical evidence for gender identity. Ladybrain/manbrain do not exist.

Many countries have broders based on rivers or mountains, rather physical wouldn't you say?

Reply 222

Original post by ugaaa5

This is factually incorrect. There are many ways in which you can be male without XY and female without XX.

Chromosones are one of several characteristics, yes, but generally XY and XX are the norm. Deviations/abnormalities exist, but someone who is XY cannot claim to be the same as someone who is XX. The existence of XXY does not imply XY can say they are XX.

Reply 223

Waldorf67

15

Original post by yudothis

Except you just scored an own goal because trans activists are increasingly claiming if you feel (perception) Female (physical reality) you are. Gender is no longer a psychological concept. Next everything we have in place relating to sex eg male and female sports has nothing to do with how people perceive themselves. You’re way behind the current argument. It’s an inconsistent but argument and contradictory with other arguments and demands.

Finally, it’s ****ing insulting to women who have suffered sexist abuse to say, well if you would just feel like a man you’d have avoided it.

That makes no sense. How the hell is feeling female a physical reality? :rofl:

I just feel like you still don’t actually understand the concept behind “gender”. It’s odd.

Your last sentence just makes no sense? Are you drunk?

Reply 224

Waldorf67

15

Original post by nutz99

Society is not evolving. This is something that affects a very small part of society. I'm a realist not a bigot! Simply because you believe in something and I don't does not make you right....it makes you arrogant!

Unfortunately the majority rules. You can choose to ignore the expert opinion, i.e., those defined by Psychiatrists and similar experts in the diagnostic statistical manual of mental disorders. But by rejecting them as a lay person, you can’t expect to have any weight behind what you say.

It’s no different to you making up your own theory regarding a biological disease such as cancer, and placing it above the opinion of Doctors.

It is you who is arrogant, by rejecting expert opinion without having any knowledge yourself.

Reply 225

Original post by Waldorf67

That makes no sense. How the hell is feeling female a physical reality? :rofl:

I just feel like you still don’t actually understand the concept behind “gender”. It’s odd.

Your last sentence just makes no sense? Are you drunk?

As usual you misunderstand, being female is a physical reality. Trans are claiming you just have to feel female in order to be female.

Pretty sure that you don't know how the idea of gender has been rewritten in the trans narrative (hint: it's not always the same, and not everyone agrees, whatever fits a specific argument is used).

If being a woman is nothing but a feeling, then it follows that a woman would have had to just identify out of being a woman and thus avoided sexism/oppression.

Not sure I can be bothered to argue with someone who is unable/unwilling to understand simple points.

Reply 226

Original post by monkeyman0121

I know that I mean the people who totally take it overboard. Also I have met a few gender neutral people and most are fine with me calling them what I assumed them to be at first but I will call them what title they deem they are.

That's fair enough. There will always be some people take their stuff 'overboard' and I guess some of these people will just happen to be focused on their gender. It's not the worst thing to be overboard about anyway. Live and let live I say. There are far more sensible things in the world to take issue with than someone thinking of themselves as a 'he' or a 'she' or something in that ballpark.

Reply 227

Original post by Waldorf67

Unfortunately the majority rules. You can choose to ignore the expert opinion, i.e., those defined by Psychiatrists and similar experts in the diagnostic statistical manual of mental disorders. But by rejecting them as a lay person, you can’t expect to have any weight behind what you say.

It’s no different to you making up your own theory regarding a biological disease such as cancer, and placing it above the opinion of Doctors.

It is you who is arrogant, by rejecting expert opinion without having any knowledge yourself.

They may have taken it out, they may put it back in. There certainly is no consensus among psychologists. What is certain on the other hand, is that those who dare question the narrative are bullied into silence, lest they be labelled bigoted and transphobic and risk losing their job.

Reply 228

Underscore__

21

Original post by Stiff Little Fingers

And since no-one except prats trying to justify their transphobia have ever even considered that, and anyone with any contextual intelligence could tell we're not talking about material things (before someone else trots out the moronic "I identify as a billionaire" line), what's your point?

That you are who you consider yourself to be is not an outlandish concept.

So you can self identify or you can’t? It’s amazing that simply because I hold a different view point to you I must be hateful, very sound logic. It’s also funny that because I have an opinion that differs to yours, rather than actually debating my idea you imply I’m unintelligent, great debate technique.

Reply 229

SmileyVibe

11

I have no hatred against trans people, but I don't believe someone can claim to be the opposite gender and expect everyone to accept them as the gender they identify as.There are biological differences between females and males. You can identify as a man but it does not mean you are a "real" as in , "natural", man or woman. Not everyone can forced to see a trans person as they see themselves. Also I think some things are going to far with people trying to pretend there are NO DIFFERENCES between males and females, and trying to make everyone feel included.

https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/video/transgender-track-stars-speak-critics-allege-unfair-advantage-56084731

Above is a link to a video about controversy of two trans boys racing on the female track team. They have been beating the girls and been on hormone treatments less than a year. They have the biological makeup of males,yet racing on a FEMALE team because they claim they are females. This is probably a different topic for another thread but the point is trying to make everyone feel included and denying biology is pretty crazy.

Reply 230

maxiea

4

Original post by Yukikobestgirl

Woah guys you really BTFOed those SJWs epic style.
Seriously though this is pathetic, as long as people don't actually identifynas a plane or something (which afaik nobody does and most NB people are just gender neutral) what is the issue? Just respect people's pronouns

Why? Why complicate matters?

Reply 231

Original post by maxiea

Why? Why complicate matters?

Non-linear equations are complicated, calling the occasional person 'she' rather than 'he' (or vice versa) because it's their preference isn't.

Reply 232

username3696126

3

Original post by SmileyVibe

I have no hatred against trans people, but I don't believe someone can claim to be the opposite gender and expect everyone to accept them as the gender they identify as.There are biological differences between females and males. You can identify as a man but it does not mean you are a "real" as in , "natural", man or woman. Not everyone can forced to see a trans person as they see themselves. Also I think some things are going to far with people trying to pretend there are NO DIFFERENCES between males and females, and trying to make everyone feel included.

https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/video/transgender-track-stars-speak-critics-allege-unfair-advantage-56084731

Above is a link to a video about controversy of two trans boys racing on the female track team. They have been beating the girls and been on hormone treatments less than a year. They have the biological makeup of males,yet racing on a FEMALE team because they claim they are females. This is probably a different topic for another thread but the point is trying to make everyone feel included and denying biology is pretty crazy.

When you start hormones your muscle mass decreases pretty quickly (own experience) . That and humans aren't exactly born on a level playing field and even though there are differences on average b/w men and women, much of it is due to the hormonal factors. I belive a lot of this is due to the fact many trans people transition after pubery, if you look at Jazz Jennings for example (you wouldn't even know shes trans) no one would even notice or make a fuss like this. I've seen those videos, but I really dont understand when some people make a fuss when a trans person wins a sporting comp. they get barraged with hate and animosity and it provides no evidence, as its just one race, there are thousands of races that trans people take part in, its like you can't win either way. I had to avoid PE in my school while I transitioned which made me upset really because I really liked sport so we still have a way to go in this. I really hate that most of the anti-trans bull is directed at MtFs, its not just in sport but appearence, voice and generally MTF trans have a harder time when it comes to 'Passing' in a cis world. The pronoun arguments draws back to the rant about toilets in America, it's completly dumb to enforce and it shows no harm to society if you just show some respect, it's not hard.

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 233

Original post by Sophi2x

When you start hormones your muscle mass decreases pretty quickly (own experience) . That and humans aren't exactly born on a level playing field and even though there are differences on average b/w men and women, much of it is due to the hormonal factors. I belive a lot of this is due to the fact many trans people transition after pubery, if you look at Jazz Jennings for example (you wouldn't even know shes trans) no one would even notice or make a fuss like this. I've seen those videos, but I really dont understand when some people make a fuss when a trans person wins a sporting comp. they get barraged with hate and animosity and it provides no evidence, as its just one race, there are thousands of races that trans people take part in, its like you can't win either way. I had to avoid PE in my school while I transitioned which made me upset really because I really liked sport so we still have a way to go in this. I really hate that most of the anti-trans bull is directed at MtFs, its not just in sport but appearence, voice and generally MTF trans have a harder time when it comes to 'Passing' in a cis world.

Your absolute refusal to acknowledge that males have physical advantages in sports over women to casually say "as its just one race" and the believe "oh I lose so much muscle after taking hormones" is quite telling. Born males have no place in women's sport. None. Even a TIM who did studies on this that were used by the IOC admitted that in strength based sports TIMs will always be at an advantage. His suggestion "limit the number of TIMs on each team". Whoop dee ****ing doo.

And if you would actually listen to the debate, you would understand why it's mostly TIMs and not TIFs that are questioned (hint: why do you think it is you see TIMs on TV so much more than TIFs, why did a TIM become Woman of the Year but not TIF Man of the Year, why are TIMs winning in women's sport but not TIFs in mens, etc. etc.).

Reply 234

Original post by Axiomasher

Non-linear equations are complicated, calling the occasional person 'she' rather than 'he' (or vice versa) because it's their preference isn't.

Can I asked to be called Your Majesty? It's my preference...

Reply 235

Original post by yudothis

Can I asked to be called Your Majesty? It's my preference...

Not actually a gendered reference as such (and so irrelevant to the discussion, like you) but otherwise sure, knock yourself out Doris.

Reply 236

Original post by Axiomasher

Not actually a gendered reference as such (and so irrelevant to the discussion, like you) but otherwise sure, knock yourself out Doris.

Now you are deadnaming me, that's literal violence! And anyway, we have Xer and Xi and whatnot as pronouns, my pronoun is just "Your Majesty", I know it's longer than usual, but it reflects best how I represent. You are just such a bigot for making fun of me.

Reply 237

username3696126

3

Original post by yudothis

Your absolute refusal to acknowledge that males have physical advantages in sports over women to casually say "as its just one race" and the believe "oh I lose so much muscle after taking hormones" is quite telling. Born males have no place in women's sport. None. Even a TIM who did studies on this that were used by the IOC admitted that in strength based sports TIMs will always be at an advantage. His suggestion "limit the number of TIMs on each team". Whoop dee ****ing doo.

And if you would actually listen to the debate, you would understand why it's mostly TIMs and not TIFs that are questioned (hint: why do you think it is you see TIMs on TV so much more than TIFs, why did a TIM become Woman of the Year but not TIF Man of the Year, why are TIMs winning in women's sport but not TIFs in mens, etc. etc.).

TIF/TIM? What the f*** is this? Update your terms please. What im saying is that FtM can pass and assimilate into society better than MtF, and yes there are trans men out there on GQ magazine, in sport, look at Kye Allums and politics too. Yes, pysical differences between cis males and females but as I said most of it is hormone related. cis men produce more testostorne, cis women produce more estrogen. When you transition the opposite happens in effect in MtF take testostorone blockers/estrogen and bring these down to cis female levels and vice versa in FtM, and this can be even assessed by medical professionals. You are wrong as trans women are in sport and have a right to be there
https://www.reuters.com/video/2017/07/25/thai-transgender-boxer-winning-the-fight?videoId=372170413
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-unfair-advantage_b_4918835.html

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 238

Original post by Sophi2x

TIF/TIM? What the f*** is this? Update your terms please. What im saying is that FtM can pass and assimilate into society better than MtF, and yes there are trans men out there on GQ magazine, in sport, look at Kye Allums and politics too. Yes, pysical differences between cis males and females but as I said most of it is hormone related. cis men produce more testostorne, cis women produce more estrogen. When you transition the opposite happens in effect in MtF take testostorone blockers/estrogen and bring these down to cis female levels and vice versa in FtM, and this can be even assessed by medical professionals. You are wrong as trans women are in sport and have a right to be there
https://www.reuters.com/video/2017/07/25/thai-transgender-boxer-winning-the-fight?videoId=372170413

Trans identified male/female.

They have a right to be in men's sport. Not in women's sport. You have no ****ing clue about this topic, do you? The current T maximum for TIMs in women's sport is 10nmol/L - that is 3/4 times as much as women have. Not to mention that your larger heart and lung and better shaped pelvis are unaffected by hormones. You just don't care about women and are happy when a male beats them.

Reply 239