[wanderlust.xx]

(Original post by turgon)
Glad to see that I'm not alone. I've been fortunate enough to fund a Masters in a vocational discipline (which I start in October), even so, I'm sick and tired of getting rejected, and I'm horribly afraid that I won't be able to get a job even after spending another 15k. I graduated with a 2:2 in Maths from one of the top four universities in the country, and it seems like not many people care for it.

The lesson learned in hindsight? Stay away from academic subjects. No one gives a s*** about them in today's climate. For every grad scheme or big firm job you've probably got several applicants with highly specialised relevant degrees and perhaps relevant work experience, how can a generic academic degree compare to that? Without nepotism it seems close to impossible to get a first job with an unrelated degree.

I'm personally hoping to apply for grad schemes in September onwards, but I've not got high expectations as even with an MSc I think a 2:2 is going to put me at a disadvantage, and I'm not particularly good with bull****ing at these HR interivews (although I'm hoping to practice over summer).

As someone said ealier on (which I only recently found out), there are in fact LOTS of smaller companies that recruit people, typically from January to May after the big grad schemes have closed. My advice to anyone struggling to get a first job with an academic degree or a 2:2 is to perhaps look to specialise in a vocational qualification, some degrees are even completely funded! Also, stay away from the big companies that have grad schemes and are on the Top100 employers and so forth, these are advertised so much they are bound to be more competitive. Instead trawl through the internet for smaller companies that no-one has heard of, the chances are their recruitment process will be a lot simpler and less competitive.

Also, (and this is the hardest part for me), be PATIENT. At this time of year there will be very few jobs available, and even from September to December it will mainly be the big firms recruiting for grad programmes. Instead, do the research and practise on interview techniques for when the job adverts do start coming out.

I'm not sure I agree with the first point, though I definitely agree with the two. Although I have a maths degree, I feel like I'm in an infinitely better position than those graduating with degrees in languages, business, management and accounting positions. Fair enough, they'll have some relate able stuff to talk about in applications, but the sheer weight that a maths degree has in the world is nothing to take lightly. There's a reason why maths, physics and chemistry degrees are commonly responded with an "OH WOW". In fact, the woman at the job centre did the same thing with me.

When the economy recovers, more jobs are available or when we establish some crucial work experience, there's nothing stopping a traditional academic degree holder from getting an entry level position somewhere incredible.

As far as the second point goes, yes, nepotism is unfortunately the most beneficial tool to graduates. That and luck.

[Chrisateen]

I sort of understand your point about degree choices. I think that those who choose a more vocational subject or one where they get a year in industry have a better chance of getting a job but also those who do academic subjects also do well (but may need to do more to stand out from other graduates)

With regards to your point about applying for smaller companies I 100% agree with you. When I sort of knew that it was likely I would end up with a 2.2 and after applying for a few grad schemes that ask for a 2.2 and didn't even get past the first round I decided to no longer bother about applying for them and focused on applying for jobs directly which worked for me and I manage to get a few interviews and found out I got a job the day before my graduation.

However the problems with applying for smaller companies or jobs directly is that the more work experience you have the more chance you have of getting the job and is more likely to be competing with candidates who have years of experience. Which is why its important as students to try and get some work during term time/ summer holidays even if it is not directly related to your career plans having some experience that is not related is better than having no experience at all. Also experience is really important when applying for smaller companies as most of them ask interview/application questions in which you need to use previous work experience in order to answer the questions.

However I do agree that if you have a 2.2 or you apply for lots of grad schemes and not even getting through to the first few stages at all one's best bet is to apply for

[rock_climber86]

meh if it is any consolation i got a 2:1 and i've had no luck with grad schemes! Employers just like idiots with vocational qualifications than graduates with science/other technical degrees who can think rigourously! Their loss...whoever eventually gives us a job, we'll prove our worth! Hang in there my homies! in the long run the thinkers are a better investment than those that do business degrees and can regurgitate facts!


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[Nomes89]

(Original post by rock_climber86)
meh if it is any consolation i got a 2:1 and i've had no luck with grad schemes! Employers just like idiots with vocational qualifications than real graduates with science degrees who can think rigourously! Their loss...whoever eventually gives us a job, we'll prove our worth! Hang in there my homies! in the long run the thinkers are a better investment than those that do business degrees and can regurgitate facts!


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I understand your frustration but you do come across as snobbish and self-entitled here. Doing a vocational course does not make you an idiot, academia and intelligence are not one and the same thing. You can slight them all you want but someone with a firm understanding of business is of more benefit to the working world simply because they are more likely to have commercial awareness.

[rock_climber86]

thats my point! Employers don't want to train anyone. they would rather take someone who did a business degree than a maths degree. It's unbelievable because business is a piece of piss and anyone with half a brain can kill it. I'm just pissed off employers are discriminating against people with academc degrees!

ps sorry if that other post came across as a bit snobbish. I'm just a bit peeved off i'm unemployed 2 years after graduating!


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[lcsurfer]

(Original post by rock_climber86)
meh if it is any consolation i got a 2:1 and i've had no luck with grad schemes! Employers just like idiots with vocational qualifications than real graduates with science degrees who can think rigourously! Their loss...whoever eventually gives us a job, we'll prove our worth! Hang in there my homies! in the long run the thinkers are a better investment than those that do business degrees and can regurgitate facts!


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But you have to think in the real world of work... my job is all vocational and they don't want to hire someone who is purely academic and theory, they want people with vocational and life skills...
thousands of people have science degrees each year, only 50 people graduate with my degree and we have industrial experience (FYI i didn't do a business degree) and employability... Just because you studied chemistry at a top 20 uni doesn't mean you are better than people who did business at a poly, different skills

[rock_climber86]

(Original post by lcsurfer)
But you have to think in the real world of work... my job is all vocational and they don't want to hire someone who is purely academic and theory, they want people with vocational and life skills...
thousands of people have science degrees each year, only 50 people graduate with my degree and we have industrial experience (FYI i didn't do a business degree) and employability... Just because you studied chemistry at a top 20 uni doesn't mean you are better than people who did business at a poly, different skills

I meant you no offence - just annoyed at employers for not giving me the chance. The argument you posed can be turned on it's head and I can say: just because you have a subject specific (business) degree, it doesn't mean you will be any better at the job than someone who has a degree in a traditional subject. They are probably just as capable, if not more, and just need some training.

With vocational stuff like nurses/medicine etc it's different because you're screwing with people's lives so that you deffo need a nursing/medical background I guess. But I don't see why maths people or physics people are being discriminated against in lame finance jobs that a 16 year old with good gcse's could probably do. They just want someone with relevant knowledge rather than someone who can think.

Oh well...life goes on

[lcsurfer]

(Original post by rock_climber86)
I meant you no offence - just annoyed at employers for not giving me the chance. The argument you posed can be turned on it's head and I can say: just because you have a subject specific (business) degree, it doesn't mean you will be any better at the job than someone who has a degree in a traditional subject. They are probably just as capable, if not more, and just need some training.

With vocational stuff like nurses/medicine etc it's different because you're screwing with people's lives so that you deffo need a nursing/medical background I guess. But I don't see why maths people or physics people are being discriminated against in lame finance jobs that a 16 year old with good gcse's could probably do. They just want someone with relevant knowledge rather than someone who can think.

Oh well...life goes on

I did not do business i did disaster management and now work in it. The job market is bad but it is all about contacts, who you know, links into industry... there are hunderd of physics/maths students and speaking from experience if an 18 year old has 2 years of office experience or work compared to a 21 yr old graduate who has never had a job with a degree, I'd got for the 18 year old because of the experience...
Obviously they want someone with relevant knowledge (as you stated)... Your best bet will be to find someone you know or just chat to people, linkedin is a great tool for that! and networking. Go an offer to volunteer for a few weeks as you will get your name out there. I Haven't been unemployed since the age of 14, its takes hard work and dedication.

[rock_climber86]

(Original post by lcsurfer)
I did not do business i did disaster management and now work in it. The job market is bad but it is all about contacts, who you know, links into industry... there are hunderd of physics/maths students and speaking from experience if an 18 year old has 2 years of office experience or work compared to a 21 yr old graduate who has never had a job with a degree, I'd got for the 18 year old because of the experience...
Obviously they want someone with relevant knowledge (as you stated)... Your best bet will be to find someone you know or just chat to people, linkedin is a great tool for that! and networking. Go an offer to volunteer for a few weeks as you will get your name out there. I Haven't been unemployed since the age of 14, its takes hard work and dedication.

Now you're just showing off . I'm already doing all those things you recommended . I'll try harder! btw did you do a msc in disaster management or similar at ucl? I think they have a disaster degree or something. At one stage I was thinking of going into cat modelling as i love learning about disasters! Very interesting subject - i envy you

[ihatebrownbread]

If you could afford/and cope with it you could search for jobs abroad and if you find one you would move to that country obviously. Though you would have to start all over again, fit into the culture etc.

[DaneCook]

Sitting here observing that half the people moaning about being unemployed actually took no discernable steps to making themselves employable. Work experience is key, better still, getting or trying to get an Internship in your penultimate year is pretty important.

Can't moan about not being employed when your CV might look bare. If you haven't carried out an Internship, you need a pretty good reason for not doing so nowadays.

Finally the employment game is luck/pedigree, I don't feel like I'm in a position to comment on the 'grafting' side of it because I pretty much got one the first Internships I applied to, in fact I applied to 2 top 4 firms (Deloitte & EY) and got offers from both... So go figure.

I'd go as far as saying that you'd be better off if you worked for free in your 2nd year, as long as where you worked had a bit of relevance to your field.

(Original post by rock_climber86)
I don't know if it's just me, but i'm of the mindset that uni comes first and concentrated on my academic work. Looking for a job whilst at uni wasn't on the top of my list so to speak. I am sure many others who are struggling to find work were in the same mindset. Academia whilst at uni, worry about work after final exams!

^ Just saw this post, and this might be one of the reasons you don't have a job. It really isn't that hard to juggle your academics and job search. Most reasonably dedicated 2nd years do this while searching for Internships/Placement. If you're in 3rd year, then fair enough it might be harder, but there's a reason 2nd year is the 'placement year'.

[rock_climber86]

(Original post by DaneCook)

^ Just saw this post, and this might be one of the reasons you don't have a job. It really isn't that hard to juggle your academics and job search. Most reasonably dedicated 2nd years do this while searching for Internships/Placement. If you're in 3rd year, then fair enough it might be harder, but there's a reason 2nd year is the 'placement year'.

I don't think you get it. The reason I didn't bother applying to internships and all of that is because I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life whilst at uni, and a year or so after uni! It's only now I'm starting to realise what I want to do with my life, so far too late for internships. What good would having done a finance internship have done for me when I knew I hated finance and now am pursuing a career as a geophysicist? "go figure" as you so bluntly put it

Not everyone is as decisive as you! I hope people will start understanding that instead of jumping on the "oh it's your fault you've not got a job" bandwagon.

[Fallen]

(Original post by rock_climber86)
I don't think you get it. The reason I didn't bother applying to internships and all of that is because I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life whilst at uni, and a year or so after uni! It's only now I'm starting to realise what I want to do with my life, so far too late for internships. What good would having done a finance internship have done for me when I knew I hated finance and now am pursuing a career as a geophysicist? "go figure" as you so bluntly put it

Not everyone is as decisive as you! I hope people will start understanding that instead of jumping on the "oh it's your fault you've not got a job" bandwagon.

But the whole point of an internship is to figure out what working in a particular field is really like. If you like it, great you have contacts. If not, well then you have learned something.

What do you think looks better on a CV when you are applying for a Geophysics job.
"Yeah I did that internship at a bank but decided it really wasn't for me", or
"I didn't know, so I watced TV".

I am going to be apply for a bunch of internships in an area I am fairly sure I don't want to go in to (along with some internships in the area I do think I want to go in to).

What can be said? Most graduates have completed relevant internships somewhere, and almost all have been in contact with the company they went to work for long before graduation. If you complete no internships and leave the applications until after graduation

[DaneCook]

Yeah, Fallen has pretty much posted by response to your post mate. Besides I never said you have to apply for Finance internships specifically. Any sort of work experience would have put you in reasonably good stead to be honest. I reckon saying you didn't know what you wanted to do is a cop out, and no offence but if you're in your penultimate year and you don't have a good idea of where you want to end up, then you're quite 'laid back'.

And when I say laid back, this is coming from someone like me, who literally 'goes with the flow' .

[rock_climber86]

(Original post by Fallen)
But the whole point of an internship is to figure out what working in a particular field is really like. If you like it, great you have contacts. If not, well then you have learned something.

What do you think looks better on a CV when you are applying for a Geophysics job.
"Yeah I did that internship at a bank but decided it really wasn't for me", or
"I didn't know, so I watced TV".

I am going to be apply for a bunch of internships in an area I am fairly sure I don't want to go in to (along with some internships in the area I do think I want to go in to).

What can be said? Most graduates have completed relevant internships somewhere, and almost all have been in contact with the company they went to work for long before graduation. If you complete no internships and leave the applications until after graduation

well since you gave me two lame options I guess I'll have to go with the banking internship - but a really tough call because I can't imagine worse than being stuck in an office all day with bigots doing financy stuff - too boring!

And just to put your mind at rest I wasn't "just watching TV" I was doing a lot of rock climbing, learning to swim, reading, voluntary maths tutoring and other charity work. I've worked in a bookshop, as a data administrator, Analyst at L'Oreal, some survey work (data entry), etc etc. I'm trying to get work experience in something relevant to my field but not getting much luck with the big companies so trying to get something from medium companies!

Finally just a general question about applying for jobs. I got a scholarship to study MSc petroleum geophysics at imperial. Should I put this in my future job applications or is it irrelevant? Just wondering if it'd make me more marketable/whether employers would see this as an achievement? thanks

[lcsurfer]

(Original post by rock_climber86)
Now you're just showing off . I'm already doing all those things you recommended . I'll try harder! btw did you do a msc in disaster management or similar at ucl? I think they have a disaster degree or something. At one stage I was thinking of going into cat modelling as i love learning about disasters! Very interesting subject - i envy you

no i did it as an undergrad at coventry :P
haha, yeah ive been lucky/ done a lot of work so can't wait to travel and relax for a few months after xmas once my contract is up here. It is a ery interesting subject, i was origionally going to do medical electronics but decided last minute to switch... so glad i did!

[rock_climber86]

(Original post by DaneCook)
your penultimate year and you don't have a good idea of where you want to end up, then you're quite 'laid back'.

And when I say laid back, this is coming from someone like me, who literally 'goes with the flow' .

you don't know half the story.

Spoiler:

Show

I dropped out of an oxford maths degree after a year,
I went to warwick via clearing and dropped out of there for a week,
had a gap year,
went to ucl and did astrophysics and geophysics for a year,
then changed to straight geophysics in my 2nd year,
graduated and went on a round the world trip for 5 months,
came back and tried to figure out what I wanted to do with life,
got into uni to do PGCE Maths,
Dropped out of PGCE after 1 day,
Got job at L'Oreal as an Analyst (got bored in a month so applied for MSc Petroleum Geophysics)
Decided I wanted to become a Petroleum Geophysicist after much pondering and what not,
Going to Imperial to do this MSc in October
I'm like the most indecisive person in the country I think

[Fallen]

(Original post by rock_climber86)
well since you gave me two lame options I guess I'll have to go with the banking internship - but a really tough call because I can't imagine worse than being stuck in an office all day with bigots doing financy stuff - too boring!

And just to put your mind at rest I wasn't "just watching TV" I was doing a lot of rock climbing, learning to swim, reading, voluntary maths tutoring and other charity work. I've worked in a bookshop, as a data administrator, Analyst at L'Oreal, some survey work (data entry), etc etc. I'm trying to get work experience in something relevant to my field but not getting much luck with the big companies so trying to get something from medium companies!

Finally just a general question about applying for jobs. I got a scholarship to study MSc petroleum geophysics at imperial. Should I put this in my future job applications or is it irrelevant? Just wondering if it'd make me more marketable/whether employers would see this as an achievement? thanks

Bigots?

As for your MSc I don't really know, but I probably wouldn't put it down. If I was an employer (*which I am not) I would prefer to make my own mind up about the candidate rather than hearing about what Imperial thought.

[PrivateWealth]

This thread is terrifying, but yet sends a signal to those who are about to start uni or are about to go into their 2nd and 3rd year - Do internships, ECs etc when you're at uni. Excuse me saying this, but some people are so narrow minded in focusing on one career path i.e if you want to be a journalists, you'll focus on applying for journalism internships throughout your time at uni. Not enough people nowadays think about the broader picture. Uni is a time to explore different things, different sectors and let's face it just get as many names on the CV as possible. Those who have done numerous internships at uni, got their 2.1 and done a load of ECs are probably in the top 5% of graduates in their graduating class. In this instance, I'd say that top 5-20% of grads are guaranteed jobs.

[PrivateWealth]

(Original post by Johnny Luk)
I am sorry for those who feel that they are left behind after graduating.

During University people often have a aim or a focus that consumes their lives. So when they graduate there is this anticlimax, or emptiness that is often hard to fill, especially if there is no worthwhile job to enter afterwards.

Unfortunately to get into a corporate grad scheme, there is a certain 'type' that you have to get through the cycle. I treat it just like any exam, play with the game if you wish to win. That often means because a extrovert, being confident (or even slightly arrogant) and doing this may seem unnatural like networking or being aggressive. For many modest hard working people, that just doesn't feel right, and so when you get rejected from a firm (which happens to everyone, including myself), you paradoxically lose confidence that further decreases the odds of succeeding in the next cycle: resulting in a cycle of decline.

Getting a degree merely gives you the chance to open the door, but that's it. You need to fill your CV with relevant work experience, practise those online test till they are perfect. Practise competency questions, perhaps in front of a mirror, in video, with a set of questions that tend to be repeated. Assessment centres are hard, especially if your shy and you need to be assertive in a group exercise. I joined debating to become more 'combative' and did acting and dancing to improve my image. Also check out NLP (neurolinguistic programming).

Another common issue is on 'what to apply for'. This is a particular problem for woman, who often want to be the perfect fit for that job before applying. Many guys just close their eyes and apply for anything and everything, even if the fit is not that great. The latter is a good way to go about it, even if it means that you get rejected, as it gives greater experience and practise interviews. Furthermore if you happen to get a job that you don't really like, its still great experience and you get to discover a career path that you may not have done before.

So for example I applied to over 15 firms in my 2nd year, and at least 10 in my final year. Plenty of rejections but you learn from them. It sucks when you feel empty and lied to about degrees, 90% of the things you learn at Uni is useless unless you go into academia. Its the transferable skills that count and the ability to be your own 'spin doctor'. Depressing? A bit, but real life? Sure is.

Keep your head up, don't believe in the headlines, graduate jobs are increasing, not decreasing. Opportunities are vast, competition is high, but here is a good analogy that I always tell my peers.

Say pre 2007, the top 30% of competent graduates get a good grad scheme, say now in post 2007 it is only the top 20%. Do you notice something? The top 20% for both era's will still get the job. Thats what you gotto do, get to the top. Its a dog eat dog world out there, use that to push yourself to the limit. Because when you get to the top, in a s****y suit in a glass building and looking at the sights, its a great view.

The Higher Education system needs to be reformed, this academia stuff is just students funding lecturers 'pet' projects, while saddled with poor, irrelevant teaching that only suits the 5% who choose to go into academia in a (probably eventually unrelated) field.

Keep your head up, its how you deal with adversity that makes you to the top!

Best wishes,

JL

Probably the best post on here. "only the top 20%. Do you notice something? The top 20% for both era's will still get the job. Thats what you gotto do, get to the top. Its a dog eat dog world out there, use that to push yourself to the limit. ." I don't think people have woken up to the fact that a getting a first or a 2.1 is just to keep the door open. If you want to blast through it, ECs, internships at uni etc are the way forward.