The Student Room Group

Tensors

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Original post by Zhen Lin
Yes, it is. But I'm explaining something different - namely the definition of xμ\displaystyle \frac{\partial}{\partial x^\mu}, and how this leads to equation 27. Obviously, if I'm defining xμ\displaystyle \frac{\partial}{\partial x^\mu}, μ\mu is a fixed index thoughout my calculation.



So it is. Nevermind then.



I have never, ever seen it used for function composition.


ok. so there is just hte one thing left that i don't get: the same thign as earlier where i had

Fxμdxμϕλ(t)dt \frac{\partial F}{\partial x^\mu} \frac{ d x^\mu \phi \circ \lambda(t)}{dt}

now i realise that the 2nd term doesn't make sense for the reason you said, namely that xμ,ϕ:MRnx^\mu,\phi : M \rightarrow \mathbb{R}^n and so xμϕx^\mu \circ \phi doesn't make sense. I understand this aspect of why it is wrong.
What I don't get is how we use the chain rule properly here:
on a very basic level (lol!) if we "divide" by xμx^\mu to give us the Fxμ \frac{\partial F}{\partial x^\mu} term then we need to multiply by it to cancel this out - this is why i think there should be a xμϕx^\mu \circ \phi term. Can you explain where I am going wrong here?

Cheers!
Reply 21
Original post by latentcorpse
What I don't get is how we use the chain rule properly here:
on a very basic level (lol!) if we "divide" by xμx^\mu to give us the Fxμ \frac{\partial F}{\partial x^\mu} term then we need to multiply by it to cancel this out - this is why i think there should be a xμϕx^\mu \circ \phi term. Can you explain where I am going wrong here?


This is a problem with the way our notation for multivariable calculus works. It's much clearer in the one-variable case: (fg)=fgg(f \circ g)' = f' \circ g \cdot g'. So, analogously, (Fϕλ)=μFϕλ(xμλ)(F \circ \phi \circ \lambda)' = \partial_\mu F \circ \phi \circ \lambda \cdot (x^\mu \circ \lambda)'. Rewriting it with t, ddt[Fϕλ(t)]=μF(ϕλ(t))ddt[xμλ(t)]\displaystyle \frac{d}{dt} \left[F \circ \phi \circ \lambda(t) \right] = \partial_\mu F (\phi \circ \lambda(t)) \frac{d}{dt} \left[x^\mu \circ \lambda(t) \right]. (I don't write Fxμ\displaystyle \frac{\partial F}{\partial x^\mu} here because (a) it conflicts with the notation xμ\displaystyle \frac{\partial}{\partial x^\mu} for the operator on manifold functions and (b) it's bad notation which sometimes confuses people.)
Original post by Zhen Lin
This is a problem with the way our notation for multivariable calculus works. It's much clearer in the one-variable case: (fg)=fgg(f \circ g)' = f' \circ g \cdot g'. So, analogously, (Fϕλ)=μFϕλ(xμλ)(F \circ \phi \circ \lambda)' = \partial_\mu F \circ \phi \circ \lambda \cdot (x^\mu \circ \lambda)'. Rewriting it with t, ddt[Fϕλ(t)]=μF(ϕλ(t))ddt[xμλ(t)]\displaystyle \frac{d}{dt} \left[F \circ \phi \circ \lambda(t) \right] = \partial_\mu F (\phi \circ \lambda(t)) \frac{d}{dt} \left[x^\mu \circ \lambda(t) \right]. (I don't write Fxμ\displaystyle \frac{\partial F}{\partial x^\mu} here because (a) it conflicts with the notation xμ\displaystyle \frac{\partial}{\partial x^\mu} for the operator on manifold functions and (b) it's bad notation which sometimes confuses people.)


Awesome! Think I'm finally starting to get the hang of this stuff! I do have a few more questions about some of the material alter on if you're able to help with that?

(i) In eqn 86, why does that one xμx^\mu have a subscript s on it? is that important? if so, why does the xμx^\mu in the second term not have it aswell?

(ii)Given the Euler Lagrange equation 88, how do we get eqns 89 and 90. Presumably by integrating eqn 84 but I'm struggling to do this!

(iii) And finally, do you have any ideas for the exercise at the bottom of p32?

Thank you.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 23
Original post by latentcorpse
Awesome! Think I'm finally starting to get the hang of this stuff! I do have a few more questions about some of the material alter on if you're able to help with that?

(i) In eqn 86, why does that one xμx^\mu have a subscript s on it? is that important? if so, why does the xμx^\mu in the second term not have it aswell?

I have no idea. Probably a typo.

(ii)Given the Euler Lagrange equation 88, how do we get eqns 89 and 90. Presumably by integrating eqn 84 but I'm struggling to do this!


I'm pretty sure that's obtained by differentiating G.

(iii) And finally, do you have any ideas for the exercise at the bottom of p32?


Just follow the hint? Take gab=ηabg_{ab} = \eta_{ab}, then e.g. (1, 0, 0, 0) is a timelike vector, (1, 1, 0, 0) is null and (0, 1, 0, 0) is spacelike.
Original post by Zhen Lin
I have no idea. Probably a typo.



I'm pretty sure that's obtained by differentiating G.



Just follow the hint? Take gab=ηabg_{ab} = \eta_{ab}, then e.g. (1, 0, 0, 0) is a timelike vector, (1, 1, 0, 0) is null and (0, 1, 0, 0) is spacelike.


Thanks. As for the differentiating G stuff, I'm out by a factor of G12G^{\frac{1}{2}} in both cases.

If G=gμνx˙μx˙νG = \sqrt{ -g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu }

then Gx˙μ=12G122gμνx˙ν\frac{\partial G}{\partial \dot{x}^\mu} = \frac{1}{2} G^{-\frac{1}{2}} \cdot -2 g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\nu

but they have it over G not root(G). Any ideas where I've gone wrong?

I'm also struggling to get eqn 93 from eqn 88. I don't know how to deal with the Gx˙μ\frac{\partial G}{\partial \dot{x}^\mu} or Gxμ\frac{\partial G}{\partial x^\mu} terms?
Reply 25
Original post by latentcorpse
Thanks. As for the differentiating G stuff, I'm out by a factor of G12G^{\frac{1}{2}} in both cases.

If G=gμνx˙μx˙νG = \sqrt{ -g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu }

then Gx˙μ=12G122gμνx˙ν\frac{\partial G}{\partial \dot{x}^\mu} = \frac{1}{2} G^{-\frac{1}{2}} \cdot -2 g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\nu

but they have it over G not root(G). Any ideas where I've gone wrong?


I don't see how you can be getting G\sqrt{G} anywhere. G=G = \sqrt{\cdots} - so if you get 1\displaystyle \frac{1}{\sqrt{\cdots}} that's just 1/G. (In other words: check your substitutions!)

I'm also struggling to get eqn 93 from eqn 88. I don't know how to deal with the Gx˙μ\frac{\partial G}{\partial \dot{x}^\mu} or Gxμ\frac{\partial G}{\partial x^\mu} terms?


Equation 93 doesn't follow from 88. (Well, actually, it might. But that's irrelevant.) It's the Euler-Lagrange equation for the action G2du\displaystyle \int G^2 \, du.
Original post by Zhen Lin
I don't see how you can be getting G\sqrt{G} anywhere. G=G = \sqrt{\cdots} - so if you get 1\displaystyle \frac{1}{\sqrt{\cdots}} that's just 1/G. (In other words: check your substitutions!)



Equation 93 doesn't follow from 88. (Well, actually, it might. But that's irrelevant.) It's the Euler-Lagrange equation for the action G2du\displaystyle \int G^2 \, du.


OK. That was a bad mistake on the G\sqrt{G} stuff!

So I'm now trying to get (103):

E-L for Lagrangian as given in (97) is

ddτ(x˙μ(gμνx˙μx˙ν))=Lxμ\frac{d}{d \tau} \left( \frac{\partial}{\partial \dot{x}^\mu} \left( - g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}{^\nu} \right) \right)= \frac{ \partial L}{\partial x^\mu}

But is it correct to say that as there is no explicit xμx^\mu dependence, Lxμ=0\frac{\partial L}{\partial x^\mu}=0?

in which case we get to

ddτ(gμνx˙ν)=0\frac{d}{d \tau} \left( g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\nu \right)=0 But I'm fairly sure I've messed up because this doesn't give me any of the delta terms that have appeared?

And secondly, why would (106) follow from (80)? Is it because (80) tells us that
gμνx˙μx˙ν=1g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu =-1
But in an orthonormal basis such as (t,x,y,z)(t,x,y,z), gμν=ημν=diag(1,1,1,1)g_{\mu \nu}=\eta_{\mu \nu} = \text{diag}(-1,1,1,1)
and so (80) tells us that (dtdτ)2+(dxdτ)2+(dydτ)2+(dzdτ)2=1-(\frac{dt}{d \tau})^2+(\frac{dx}{d \tau})^2+(\frac{dy}{d \tau})^2+(\frac{dz}{d \tau})^2=-1 and if (dxidτ)20(\frac{d x^i}{d \tau})^2 \simeq 0 then dtdτ1\frac{dt}{d \tau} \simeq 1. Is this correct?
Reply 27
Original post by latentcorpse
But is it correct to say that as there is no explicit xμx^\mu dependence, Lxμ=0\frac{\partial L}{\partial x^\mu}=0?


No. The metric depends on the point!

And secondly, why would (106) follow from (80)? Is it because (80) tells us that
gμνx˙μx˙ν=1g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu =-1
But in an orthonormal basis such as (t,x,y,z)(t,x,y,z), gμν=ημν=diag(1,1,1,1)g_{\mu \nu}=\eta_{\mu \nu} = \text{diag}(-1,1,1,1)
and so (80) tells us that (dtdτ)2+(dxdτ)2+(dydτ)2+(dzdτ)2=1-(\frac{dt}{d \tau})^2+(\frac{dx}{d \tau})^2+(\frac{dy}{d \tau})^2+(\frac{dz}{d \tau})^2=-1 and if (dxidτ)20(\frac{d x^i}{d \tau})^2 \simeq 0 then dtdτ1\frac{dt}{d \tau} \simeq 1. Is this correct?


No. You can't do that. Those are the components in the coordinate basis, so you must use the given metric: so (1+2Φ)t˙2+(12Φ)(x˙2+y˙2+z˙2)=1-(1 + 2 \Phi) \dot{t}^2 + (1 - 2 \Phi) (\dot{x}^2 + \dot{y}^2 + \dot{z}^2) = -1, where the dot denotes differentiation w.r.t. proper time. Fortunately, we're given that Φ\Phi is negligible, so (1+2Φ)t˙2+(12Φ)(x˙2+y˙2+z˙2)t˙2+x˙2+y˙2+z˙2-(1 + 2 \Phi) \dot{t}^2 + (1 - 2 \Phi) (\dot{x}^2 + \dot{y}^2 + \dot{z}^2) \approx -\dot{t}^2 + \dot{x}^2 + \dot{y}^2 + \dot{z}^2. Then we're also given that x˙2+y˙2+z˙2\dot{x}^2 + \dot{y}^2 + \dot{z}^2 is negligible, so it immediately follows that t˙21-\dot{t}^2 \approx -1. (Note that t˙1\dot{t} \approx -1 is a valid conclusion, but conventionally we choose τ\tau so that t˙>0\dot{t} > 0.)
Original post by Zhen Lin
No. The metric depends on the point!

But in exercise 2 at the bottom of p36, they say that Lτ=0\frac{\partial L}{\partial \tau}=0 since L has no explicit tau dependence but it looks to me, like what you were saying, the metric does depend on tau (gμν(x(τ))g_{\mu \nu} ( x ( \tau))), no?




Original post by Zhen Lin

No. You can't do that. Those are the components in the coordinate basis, so you must use the given metric: so (1+2Φ)t˙2+(12Φ)(x˙2+y˙2+z˙2)=1-(1 + 2 \Phi) \dot{t}^2 + (1 - 2 \Phi) (\dot{x}^2 + \dot{y}^2 + \dot{z}^2) = -1, where the dot denotes differentiation w.r.t. proper time. Fortunately, we're given that Φ\Phi is negligible, so (1+2Φ)t˙2+(12Φ)(x˙2+y˙2+z˙2)t˙2+x˙2+y˙2+z˙2-(1 + 2 \Phi) \dot{t}^2 + (1 - 2 \Phi) (\dot{x}^2 + \dot{y}^2 + \dot{z}^2) \approx -\dot{t}^2 + \dot{x}^2 + \dot{y}^2 + \dot{z}^2. Then we're also given that x˙2+y˙2+z˙2\dot{x}^2 + \dot{y}^2 + \dot{z}^2 is negligible, so it immediately follows that t˙21-\dot{t}^2 \approx -1. (Note that t˙1\dot{t} \approx -1 is a valid conclusion, but conventionally we choose τ\tau so that t˙>0\dot{t} > 0.)


Ok. But how do we know to pick ds2dτ2=1\frac{ds^2}{d \tau^2} = -1? I assume this is because we are treating it as a massive particle that will follow a timelike curve? If this is right, how did you know this in the first place?

And in (116), why does this follow from (115) only in a coordinate basis?
Surely, eν(Yμ)e_\nu(Y^\mu) is just like X(f)=X(f)X(f) = \nabla_X(f) from (111) and then since for scalar functions, f;a=f,af_{;a}=f_{,a} we would have eν(Yμ)=yμ,νe_\nu(Y^\mu)=y^\mu{}_{,\nu} in any basis, no?

Thanks!
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 29
Original post by latentcorpse
But in exercise 2 at the bottom of p36, they say that Lτ=0\frac{\partial L}{\partial \tau}=0 since L has no explicit tau dependence but it looks to me, like what you were saying, the metric does depend on tau (gμν(x(τ))g_{\mu \nu} ( x ( \tau))), no?


Yes, the metric does depend on τ\tau when you write it in that form. But the correct way to write the Lagrangian is like this: L(τ,xσ,x˙σ)=gμν(xσ)x˙μx˙νL(\tau, x^\sigma, \dot{x}^\sigma) = g_{\mu \nu}(x^\sigma) \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu. In this form it's clear that there's no τ\tau dependence. L is to be understood as a function of 9 independent variables here. Again, this is difficult to explain due to poor notation - the point is, at the stage where you're partial-differentiating the Lagrangian, you haven't yet put in the relation between xσx^\sigma and τ\tau yet, but when you do the total-differentiation, you have set xσx^\sigma to be the coordinate along some path.

Ok. But how do we know to pick ds2dτ2=1\frac{ds^2}{d \tau^2} = -1? I assume this is because we are treating it as a massive particle that will follow a timelike curve? If this is right, how did you know this in the first place?


Yes. This is a physics question, not a geometry question.

And in (116), why does this follow from (115) only in a coordinate basis?
Surely, eν(Yμ)e_\nu(Y^\mu) is just like X(f)=X(f)X(f) = \nabla_X(f) from (111) and then since for scalar functions, f;a=f,af_{;a}=f_{,a} we would have eν(Yμ)=yμ,νe_\nu(Y^\mu)=y^\mu{}_{,\nu} in any basis, no?


f,νf_{,\nu} is defined as differentiating a function w.r.t. to the coordinates. There are bases which may not correspond to any coordinate chart at all. For instance, I might work in an orthonormalised polar coordinate system where e1=r,e2=1rθ,e3=1rsinθϕ\displaystyle e_1= \frac{\partial}{\partial r}, e_2 = \frac{1}{r} \frac{\partial}{\partial \theta}, e_3 = \frac{1}{r \sin \theta} \frac{\partial}{\partial \phi} . Then, e2(f)=1rfθ\displaystyle e_2 (f) = \frac{1}{r} \frac{\partial f}{\partial \theta} but f,2=fθ\displaystyle f_{,2} = \frac{\partial f}{\partial \theta}. Perhaps this is indicative of bad notation...
Original post by Zhen Lin
Yes, the metric does depend on τ\tau when you write it in that form. But the correct way to write the Lagrangian is like this: L(τ,xσ,x˙σ)=gμν(xσ)x˙μx˙νL(\tau, x^\sigma, \dot{x}^\sigma) = g_{\mu \nu}(x^\sigma) \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu. In this form it's clear that there's no τ\tau dependence. L is to be understood as a function of 9 independent variables here. Again, this is difficult to explain due to poor notation - the point is, at the stage where you're partial-differentiating the Lagrangian, you haven't yet put in the relation between xσx^\sigma and τ\tau yet, but when you do the total-differentiation, you have set xσx^\sigma to be the coordinate along some path.



Yes. This is a physics question, not a geometry question.



f,νf_{,\nu} is defined as differentiating a function w.r.t. to the coordinates. There are bases which may not correspond to any coordinate chart at all. For instance, I might work in an orthonormalised polar coordinate system where e1=r,e2=1rθ,e3=1rsinθϕ\displaystyle e_1= \frac{\partial}{\partial r}, e_2 = \frac{1}{r} \frac{\partial}{\partial \theta}, e_3 = \frac{1}{r \sin \theta} \frac{\partial}{\partial \phi} . Then, e2(f)=1rfθ\displaystyle e_2 (f) = \frac{1}{r} \frac{\partial f}{\partial \theta} but f,2=fθ\displaystyle f_{,2} = \frac{\partial f}{\partial \theta}. Perhaps this is indicative of bad notation...


Ok. So if we have

ds2=(1+2Φ)dt2+(12Φ)(dx2+dy2+dz2)ds^2=-(1+2 \Phi) dt^2 + (1-2 \Phi)(dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)
then
L=gμνx˙μx˙ν=(1+2Φ)t˙2(12Φ)(x˙2+y˙2+z˙2)L=-g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu = (1+2 \Phi) \dot{t}^2 - (1-2 \Phi)(\dot{x}^2+\dot{y}^2+\dot{z}^2)

so

Lx˙μ\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{x}^\mu} =2(1+2\Phi) \dot{t} - 2(1-2 \Phi)(\dot{x}+\dot{y}+\dot{z})

Lxμ\frac{\partial L}{\partial x^\mu} = 2 \partial_i \Phi \dot{t}^2 + 2 \partial_i \Phi ( \dot{x}^2 + \dot{y}^2 + \dot{z}^2)

I get the feeling this has gone wrong though! How is it looking?


Then, in the second line of chapter 15, he claims that fxμ\frac{\partial f}{\partial x^\mu} are the components of (df)a(df)_a in a coordinate basis. However, in equation 36, it would appear that the components are in fact (Fxμ)ϕ(p)(\frac{\partial F}{\partial x^\mu})_{\phi(p)}. Which is correct?

And how do we derive (118)?
Also, given that (118) tells us that the Christoffel symbols don't transform as tensors (due to presence of 2nd term in (118)), we also need to show that the 1st term in (116) doesn't transform as a tensor according to the paragraph after (118). However, I find that it does transform as a tensor:

Yμ,μ=Yμxν=xμxρYρxν=xμxρxλxνYρxλ=xμxρxλxνY,λρY'^\mu{}_{, \mu} = \frac{\partial Y'^\mu}{\partial x'^\nu} = \frac{\partial x'^\mu}{\partial x^\rho} \frac{\partial Y^\rho}{\partial x'^\nu} = \frac{\partial x'^\mu}{\partial x^\rho} \frac{\partial x^\lambda}{\partial x'^\nu} \frac{\partial Y^\rho}{\partial x^\lambda} = \frac{\partial x'^\mu}{\partial x^\rho} \frac{\partial x^\lambda}{\partial x'^\nu} Y^\rho_{, \lambda}
which shows it transforms as a tensor, no?

And in (128), this is the requirement for a torsion free connection apparently. However, I thought that because the Christoffel symbols are symmetric in the two lower indices, Γρ[μν]=0\Gamma^\rho{}_{[\mu \nu]}=0 all the time. Therefore, how is it possible to ever have a connectino that isn't torsion free?

And in (131), what the hell has happened here lol?
Firstly, how does X(g(Y,Z))=X(g(Y,Z))X(g(Y,Z))=\nabla_X(g(Y,Z))?
And secondly, I don't see how the Leibniz rule has been used to get the second equality. The Leibniz rule is for fY NOT f(Y) and here we have g(Y,Z). Do we assume f(Y) and fY are the same thing? If so, I don't understand how to apply the Leibniz rule to a function of 2 vectors?

And finally, do you have any ideas about the exercise on p40? I had a look through Wald's textbook and couldn't find anything useful to help with this either.

Thanks again!
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 31
Original post by latentcorpse
Ok. So if we have

ds2=(1+2Φ)dt2+(12Φ)(dx2+dy2+dz2)ds^2=-(1+2 \Phi) dt^2 + (1-2 \Phi)(dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)
then
L=gμνx˙μx˙ν=(1+2Φ)t˙2(12Φ)(x˙2+y˙2+z˙2)L=-g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu = (1+2 \Phi) \dot{t}^2 - (1-2 \Phi)(\dot{x}^2+\dot{y}^2+\dot{z}^2)

so

Lx˙μ\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{x}^\mu} =2(1+2\Phi) \dot{t} - 2(1-2 \Phi)(\dot{x}+\dot{y}+\dot{z})


Lxμ\frac{\partial L}{\partial x^\mu} = 2 \partial_i \Phi \dot{t}^2 + 2 \partial_i \Phi ( \dot{x}^2 + \dot{y}^2 + \dot{z}^2)

I get the feeling this has gone wrong though! How is it looking?

That's gone horribly wrong. Just work with the general case and you should be fine. (For what it's worth, Tx˙=2(12Φ)x˙\displaystyle \frac{\partial T}{\partial \dot{x}} = -2(1 - 2 \Phi) \dot{x} and Lx=2Φx(t˙2+x˙2+y˙2+z˙2)\displaystyle \frac{\partial L}{\partial x} = 2 \frac{\partial \Phi}{\partial x} ( \dot{t}^2 + \dot{x}^2 + \dot{y}^2 + \dot{z}^2 ), for example.)

Then, in the second line of chapter 15, he claims that fxμ\frac{\partial f}{\partial x^\mu} are the components of (df)a(df)_a in a coordinate basis. However, in equation 36, it would appear that the components are in fact (Fxμ)ϕ(p)(\frac{\partial F}{\partial x^\mu})_{\phi(p)}. Which is correct?


Well, we have df=fxμdxμ\displaystyle df = \frac{\partial f}{\partial x^\mu} dx^\mu, so yes, the components are what he claims. Equation 36 is irrelevant the subscripts there indicate evaluation at a point, not components. (Again, indicative of bad notation.)

And how do we derive (118)?


I have no idea I don't know what the definition of the LHS is.

Also, given that (118) tells us that the Christoffel symbols don't transform as tensors (due to presence of 2nd term in (118)), we also need to show that the 1st term in (116) doesn't transform as a tensor according to the paragraph after (118). However, I find that it does transform as a tensor:

Yμ,μ=Yμxν=xμxρYρxν=xμxρxλxνYρxλ=xμxρxλxνY,λρY'^\mu{}_{, \mu} = \frac{\partial Y'^\mu}{\partial x'^\nu} = \frac{\partial x'^\mu}{\partial x^\rho} \frac{\partial Y^\rho}{\partial x'^\nu} = \frac{\partial x'^\mu}{\partial x^\rho} \frac{\partial x^\lambda}{\partial x'^\nu} \frac{\partial Y^\rho}{\partial x^\lambda} = \frac{\partial x'^\mu}{\partial x^\rho} \frac{\partial x^\lambda}{\partial x'^\nu} Y^\rho_{, \lambda}
which shows it transforms as a tensor, no?


Your calculation assumes the tensoriality. The definition is Yμ=xμxρYρ\displaystyle Y'^\mu = \frac{\partial x'^\mu}{\partial x^\rho} Y^\rho, but xμxρ\displaystyle \frac{\partial x'^\mu}{\partial x^\rho} is in general not a constant and doesn't commute with derivatives!

And in (128), this is the requirement for a torsion free connection apparently. However, I thought that because the Christoffel symbols are symmetric in the two lower indices, Γρ[μν]=0\Gamma^\rho{}_{[\mu \nu]}=0 all the time. Therefore, how is it possible to ever have a connectino that isn't torsion free?


Yes, the Christoffel symbol, in a coordinate basis, is symmetric in the lower two indices. But that's because the Christoffel symbol is the coordinate expression for the Levi–Civita conection; there are other connections which may not be torsion-free.

And in (131), what the hell has happened here lol?
Firstly, how does X(g(Y,Z))=X(g(Y,Z))X(g(Y,Z))=\nabla_X(g(Y,Z))?
And secondly, I don't see how the Leibniz rule has been used to get the second equality. The Leibniz rule is for fY NOT f(Y) and here we have g(Y,Z). Do we assume f(Y) and fY are the same thing? If so, I don't understand how to apply the Leibniz rule to a function of 2 vectors?


If I write it out in index notation, is it clearer? It's just the statement Xρxρ[gμνYμZν]=Xρ(gμνYμZν);ρ=gμνY;ρμZν+gμνYμZ;ρν\displaystyle X^\rho \frac{\partial}{\partial x^\rho} \left[ g_{\mu \nu} Y^\mu Z^\nu \right] = X^\rho \left( g_{\mu \nu} Y^\mu Z^\nu \right)_{; \rho} = g_{\mu \nu} Y^{\mu}_{;\rho} Z^{\nu} + g_{\mu \nu} Y^\mu Z^{\nu}_{;\rho}. The Leibniz rule applies because the metric is bilinear.

And finally, do you have any ideas about the exercise on p40? I had a look through Wald's textbook and couldn't find anything useful to help with this either.


I'm not certain, but I believe the calculation has to do with non-holonomic bases. Try looking for references to do with those. If you don't find anything, try looking up tetrads/vierbeins/vielbeins or Einstein—Cartan theory.

Thanks again!


Have you considered asking on a different forum? I feel like I'm the only one looking at this thread, and I haven't even taken this course (or differential geometry, for that matter).
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Zhen Lin
That's gone horribly wrong. Just work with the general case and you should be fine. (For what it's worth, Tx˙=2(12Φ)x˙\displaystyle \frac{\partial T}{\partial \dot{x}} = -2(1 - 2 \Phi) \dot{x} and Lx=2Φx(t˙2+x˙2+y˙2+z˙2)\displaystyle \frac{\partial L}{\partial x} = 2 \frac{\partial \Phi}{\partial x} ( \dot{t}^2 + \dot{x}^2 + \dot{y}^2 + \dot{z}^2 ), for example.)

What do you mean the general case, sorry?

Original post by Zhen Lin

Well, we have df=fxμdxμ\displaystyle df = \frac{\partial f}{\partial x^\mu} dx^\mu, so yes, the components are what he claims. Equation 36 is irrelevant the subscripts there indicate evaluation at a point, not components. (Again, indicative of bad notation.)

I see that eqn 36 is evaluated at a point but underneath he writes that it gives the components? Is it because eqn 36 gives the components of the tensor and here in chapter 15, he is talking about the components of the tensor FIELD?

Original post by Zhen Lin

Your calculation assumes the tensoriality. The definition is Yμ=xμxρYρ\displaystyle Y'^\mu = \frac{\partial x'^\mu}{\partial x^\rho} Y^\rho, but xμxρ\displaystyle \frac{\partial x'^\mu}{\partial x^\rho} is in general not a constant and doesn't commute with derivatives!

I don't understand what you're on about here. Could you elaborate please?

Original post by Zhen Lin

Yes, the Christoffel symbol, in a coordinate basis, is symmetric in the lower two indices. But that's because the Christoffel symbol is the coordinate expression for the Levi–Civita conection; there are other connections which may not be torsion-free.

I think I "kind of" understand this. I can't really see how it would ever be non-zero though? Or do you mean that for a different connection (or for the same connection in a different i.e. non coordinate basis), eqn 125 would change and then 126 would change and so we would end up with a different condition for torsion free connections?

Original post by Zhen Lin

If I write it out in index notation, is it clearer? It's just the statement Xρxρ[gμνYμZν]=Xρ(gμνYμZν);ρ=gμνY;ρμZν+gμνYμZ;ρν\displaystyle X^\rho \frac{\partial}{\partial x^\rho} \left[ g_{\mu \nu} Y^\mu Z^\nu \right] = X^\rho \left( g_{\mu \nu} Y^\mu Z^\nu \right)_{; \rho} = g_{\mu \nu} Y^{\mu}_{;\rho} Z^{\nu} + g_{\mu \nu} Y^\mu Z^{\nu}_{;\rho}. The Leibniz rule applies because the metric is bilinear.

Why is xρ\frac{\partial}{\partial x^\rho} the same as covariant derivative here? And if we write out hte Leibniz rule stuff we get
X(g(Y,Z))=X(g)(Y,Z)+g(XY,Z)+X(g)(Y,Z)+g(X,XZ)\nabla_X(g(Y,Z))=X(g)(Y,Z) + g(\nabla_X Y, Z) + X(g)(Y,Z) + g(X, \nabla_X Z)
now I definitely think I've messeg up here - I have the two terms I want plus these two additional terms. Surely they don't make sense as I just have the pair (Y,Z) sitting on their own without anything acting on them!

Original post by Zhen Lin

Have you considered asking on a different forum? I feel like I'm the only one looking at this thread, and I haven't even taken this course (or differential geometry, for that matter).


Well, you're certainly doing an excellent job of answering my questions lol! The differential geometry stuff ends about p60ish I think so hopefully once I get into the more physics-y side of things I won't be pestering you as much!

Cheers
Reply 33
Original post by latentcorpse
What do you mean the general case, sorry?

Let L=gμνx˙μx˙ν\displaystyle L = -g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu and compute the derivatives. You should get Lxρ=gμν,ρx˙μx˙ν\displaystyle \frac{\partial L}{\partial x^\rho} = -g_{\mu \nu, \rho} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu and Lx˙ρ=gμρx˙μgρνx˙ν\displaystyle \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{x}^\rho} = -g_{\mu \rho} \dot{x}^\mu - g_{\rho \nu} \dot{x}^\nu. Then write out the components explicitly for your given metric.

I see that eqn 36 is evaluated at a point but underneath he writes that it gives the components? Is it because eqn 36 gives the components of the tensor and here in chapter 15, he is talking about the components of the tensor FIELD?


Well, if you try to evaluate fxμ\displaystyle \frac{\partial f}{\partial x^\mu} at a point pMp \in M under the chart ϕ:MRn\phi: M \to \mathbb{R}^n you'll get the expression under equation 36.

I don't understand what you're on about here. Could you elaborate please?


You're skipping steps. Write it out properly: Yμxν=xν[xμxρYρ]\displaystyle \frac{\partial Y'^\mu}{\partial x'^\nu} = \frac{\partial}{\partial x'^\nu} \left[ \frac{\partial x'^\mu}{\partial x^\rho} Y^\rho \right]. Apply the product rule and you'll get the expression you want, xμxρYρxν\displaystyle \frac{\partial x'^\mu}{\partial x^\rho} \frac{\partial Y^\rho}{\partial x'^\nu} plus an unwanted term, 2xμxνxρYρ\displaystyle \frac{\partial^2 x'^\mu}{\partial x'^\nu \partial x^\rho} Y^\rho. It's the latter unwanted term that makes this non-tensorial. It's also this term which (the transformation law of) the Christoffel symbol kills off, which makes the covariant derivative tensorial.

I think I "kind of" understand this. I can't really see how it would ever be non-zero though? Or do you mean that for a different connection (or for the same connection in a different i.e. non coordinate basis), eqn 125 would change and then 126 would change and so we would end up with a different condition for torsion free connections?


No. A connection, in coordinate terms, is expressed as an object Γ~ρμνρ\tilde{\Gamma}^{\rho}_{\phantom{\rho}\mu\nu} which satisfies the same transformation law as the Christoffel symbol. It is therefore something which makes the expression Tρ,νρ+Γ~ρμνρTμT^{\rho}_{\phantom{\rho},\nu} + \tilde{\Gamma}^{\rho}_{\phantom{\rho}\mu\nu} T^\mu tensorial. (Strictly speaking, actually, a connection is defined as something which makes the covariant derivative expression tensorial, but a necessary and sufficient condition is the transformation law, if I'm not mistaken.)

Why is xρ\frac{\partial}{\partial x^\rho} the same as covariant derivative here?


Because the action of the covariant derivative on a scalar field is exactly the same as forming the covector of partial derivatives with respect to the coordinates (in a coordinate basis, of course).

And if we write out hte Leibniz rule stuff we get
X(g(Y,Z))=X(g)(Y,Z)+g(XY,Z)+X(g)(Y,Z)+g(X,XZ)\nabla_X(g(Y,Z))=X(g)(Y,Z) + g(\nabla_X Y, Z) + X(g)(Y,Z) + g(X, \nabla_X Z)
now I definitely think I've messeg up here - I have the two terms I want plus these two additional terms. Surely they don't make sense as I just have the pair (Y,Z) sitting on their own without anything acting on them!


Well, applying the Leibniz rule yields X[g(Y,Z)]=X[g](Y,Z)+g(XY,Z)+g(Y,XZ)\nabla_X [g(Y,Z)] = \nabla_X [g](Y, Z) + g(\nabla_X Y, Z) + g(Y, \nabla_X Z). X[g]\nabla_X[g] is simply another bilinear form, so (Y, Z) isn't just sitting there.
Reply 34
Original post by latentcorpse
And how do we derive (118)?


I think I figured it out. I get a minus sign in front of the second term in the equation though. We define Γμρνμ\Gamma'^\mu_{\phantom{\mu}\rho\nu} as the thing which makes this equation true: XY=Xν(eν[Yμ]+ΓμρνμYρ)eμ\nabla_X Y = X'^\nu ( e'_\nu [Y'^\mu] + \Gamma'^\mu_{\phantom{\mu}\rho\nu} Y'^\rho ) e'_\mu. So, equate it with the usual definition to get Xν(eν[Yμ]+ΓμρνμYρ)eμ=Xν(Yμ,νμ+ΓμρνμYρ)xμ\displaystyle X'^\nu ( e'_\nu [Y'^\mu] + \Gamma'^\mu_{\phantom{\mu}\rho\nu} Y'^\rho ) e'_\mu = X^\nu (Y^\mu_{\phantom{\mu},\nu} + \Gamma^\mu_{\phantom{\mu}\rho\nu} Y^\rho) \frac{\partial}{\partial x^\mu} and then do lots of algebra. It's useful to note that if eμ=(A1)νμνxν\displaystyle e'_\mu = (A^{-1})^{\nu}_{\phantom{\nu}\mu} \frac{\partial}{\partial x^\nu} then xν=Aμνμeμ\displaystyle \frac{\partial}{\partial x^\nu} = A^{\mu}_{\phantom{\mu}\nu} e'_\mu.
Original post by Zhen Lin
Let L=gμνx˙μx˙ν\displaystyle L = -g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu and compute the derivatives. You should get Lxρ=gμν,ρx˙μx˙ν\displaystyle \frac{\partial L}{\partial x^\rho} = -g_{\mu \nu, \rho} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu and Lx˙ρ=gμρx˙μgρνx˙ν\displaystyle \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{x}^\rho} = -g_{\mu \rho} \dot{x}^\mu - g_{\rho \nu} \dot{x}^\nu. Then write out the components explicitly for your given metric.


So I get the t equation fine. Now for the i equation

ddτ(Lx˙ρ)Lxρ=0\frac{d}{d \tau} \left( \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{x}^\rho} \right) - \frac{\partial L}{\partial x^\rho}=0
Take ρ=i\rho=i

ddτ(2giix˙i)gμν,ix˙μx˙ν=0\frac{d}{d \tau} ( -2g_{ii} \dot{x}^i) - g_{\mu \nu , i} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu =0
2(12Φ)x¨iig00(x˙0)2igjkx˙jx˙k=0-2(1-2\Phi) \ddot{x}^i - \partial_i g_{00} (\dot{x}^0)^2 - \partial_i g_{jk} \dot{x}^j \dot{x}^k=0

How is that looking? Any tips on how to proceed?

I'd also like to ask about (138):

(i) In the first equality, we go through and stick an f on the left of every X (obviously!) but then take for example the 2nd term on the 1st line Y(fg(Z,X))Y(fg(Z,X)). How are we able to move the f out from Y(g(Z,fX))Y(g(Z,fX)) to give this?

(ii) In the second equality of (138), he rewrites Y(fg(Z,X))=fY(g(Z,X))+Y(f)g(Z,X)Y(fg(Z,X))=fY(g(Z,X)) + Y(f)g(Z,X). How does this work? I can see it is some sort of product rule but can we write it in indices to make it clearer?


And just under (137), he writes "This determines XY\nabla_XY uniquely because the metric is nondegenerate. How does this work?

And I'm a bit confused by the example on p39, he says if we take \nabla to be partial differentiation, it satisfies all the above conditions for a covariant derivative - how can this be? He explicitly states at the start of chapter 15 that partial derivatives are no good as covariant derivatives as they don't transform as tensors!

Also, in (148), where does this come from? I don't really understand the bit above it where he says that affinely parameterised geodesics through p are given in normal coordinates by Xμ(t)=tXpμX^\mu(t)=t X^\mu_p.

Then a few small things about the next few lines:
(i) in (149), why do we symmetrise the lower indices?
(ii) He then says "hence, for a torsion free connection......" but I don't see where he has made use of the connection being torsion free at any point in this argument?
(iii) And in (150) he says he has applied the above to the Levi Civita connection - how has this given us (150) though?

And finally, any thoughts for the exercise on p46?

Edit: As for your post on 118, I'm fairly sure there should be a minus sign because of what you showed me earlier when we worked out how Yμ,νY^\mu{}_{, \nu} transforms - its unwanted term had a + sign so this way they would cancel and the covariant derivative would (as expected) transform as a tensor!
However, in your post above, why have you equated the primed version with the coordinate basis version? Just because we know what this looks like? And when I try and prove it, should I expand on the RHS or the LHS of that equation?

Thanks again! And apologies for bombarding you with so many questions!
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 36
Original post by latentcorpse
So I get the t equation fine. Now for the i equation

ddτ(Lx˙ρ)Lxρ=0\frac{d}{d \tau} \left( \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{x}^\rho} \right) - \frac{\partial L}{\partial x^\rho}=0
Take ρ=i\rho=i

ddτ(2giix˙i)gμν,ix˙μx˙ν=0\frac{d}{d \tau} ( -2g_{ii} \dot{x}^i) - g_{\mu \nu , i} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu =0
2(12Φ)x¨iig00(x˙0)2igjkx˙jx˙k=0-2(1-2\Phi) \ddot{x}^i - \partial_i g_{00} (\dot{x}^0)^2 - \partial_i g_{jk} \dot{x}^j \dot{x}^k=0

How is that looking? Any tips on how to proceed?

That doesn't look right you seem to be missing a term where the index the metric is differentiated w.r.t. is contracted with a velocity vector. I can't be bothered to check your calculations this is nothing more than a simple exercise in differentiation so I'll just tell you what the general result is: gρνx¨ν+gρν,μx˙μx˙ν12gμν,ρx˙μx˙ν=0\displaystyle g_{\rho \nu} \ddot{x}^\nu + g_{\rho \nu, \mu} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu - \frac{1}{2} g_{\mu \nu, \rho} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu = 0. Raising indices, it's x¨σ+gρσ(gρν,μ12gμν,ρ)x˙μx˙ν=0\displaystyle \ddot{x}^\sigma + g^{\rho \sigma} \left( g_{\rho \nu, \mu} - \frac{1}{2} g_{\mu \nu, \rho} \right) \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu = 0. You should check that this is the same as x¨σ+Γσμνσx˙μx˙ν=0\displaystyle \ddot{x}^\sigma + \Gamma^{\sigma}_{\phantom{\sigma}\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu = 0.


I'd also like to ask about (138):

(i) In the first equality, we go through and stick an f on the left of every X (obviously!) but then take for example the 2nd term on the 1st line Y(fg(Z,X))Y(fg(Z,X)). How are we able to move the f out from Y(g(Z,fX))Y(g(Z,fX)) to give this?


f is a scalar field and g is bilinear. In index notation, Yρ(gμνZμ(fX)ν),ρ=Yρ(fgμνZμXν),ρY^\rho (g_{\mu \nu} Z^\mu (f X)^\nu)_{, \rho} = Y^\rho (f g_{\mu \nu} Z^\mu X^\nu)_{,\rho}.

(ii) In the second equality of (138), he rewrites Y(fg(Z,X))=fY(g(Z,X))+Y(f)g(Z,X)Y(fg(Z,X))=fY(g(Z,X)) + Y(f)g(Z,X). How does this work? I can see it is some sort of product rule but can we write it in indices to make it clearer?


It's precisely the product rule. In index notation, Yρ(fgμνZμXν),ρ=fYρ(gμνZμXν),ρ+Yρf,ρgμνZμXνY^\rho (f g_{\mu \nu} Z^\mu X^\nu)_{,\rho} = f Y^\rho (g_{\mu \nu} Z^\mu X^\nu)_{,\rho} + Y^\rho f_{, \rho} g_{\mu \nu} Z^\mu X^\nu.

And just under (137), he writes "This determines XY\nabla_XY uniquely because the metric is nondegenerate. How does this work?


I have no idea this is something I've always taken on trust. I guess it's an appeal to the notion that you could, in principle, drop various vectors and invert various matrices to obtain an equation for XY\nabla_X Y directly.

And I'm a bit confused by the example on p39, he says if we take \nabla to be partial differentiation, it satisfies all the above conditions for a covariant derivative - how can this be? He explicitly states at the start of chapter 15 that partial derivatives are no good as covariant derivatives as they don't transform as tensors!


Well, this is difficult to explain. I think it's true and basically boils down to fact that the coordinateful definition of tensor and the coordinate-free definition of tensor don't quite match up. In the coordinate-free definition, there is no condition on transformation laws because transformation laws are inherently coordinateful! To make it precise in the coordinate-free picture, a tensor is just a multilinear map which takes vectors and returns vectors. A tensor field is a tensor-valued function on the manifold. The partial derivative operator acts on a vector field to produce a function which, at each point on the manifold, defines a linear map taking a vector to a vector so the partial derivative of a vector field is certainly a tensor field by this definition.

Also, in (148), where does this come from? I don't really understand the bit above it where he says that affinely parameterised geodesics through p are given in normal coordinates by Xμ(t)=tXpμX^\mu(t)=t X^\mu_p.


Basically, by the existence and uniqueness theorem for ODEs, at every point pMp \in M, and every tangent vector XpTpMX_p \in T_p M, there is a geodesic which passes through p with tangent vector XpX_p (at p). The equation is basically justifying the abuse of notation (but I still think it's bad notation) let's try to make this clearer. Let γp(;Xp):[1,1]M\gamma_p( - ; X_p) : [-1, 1] \to M be the unique geodesic s.t. γp(0;Xp)=p\gamma_p(0; X_p) = p and γp(0;Xp)=Xp\gamma'_p(0; X_p) = X_p. Let ϕ:MRn\phi: M \to \mathbb{R}^n be the normal coordinate chart, i.e. the chart such that expϕ=id\exp \circ \phi = \mathrm{id}. Then, ϕγp(t;Xp)=tdϕp(Xp)\phi \circ \gamma_p(t; X_p) = t d\phi_p (X_p), where dϕp:TpMRnd\phi_p : T_p M \to \mathbb{R}^n gives the components of a vector w.r.t the coordinate basis induced by ϕ\phi. So, if we write Xμ(t)X^\mu (t) for the μ\mu-th component of ϕγp(t;Xp)\phi \circ \gamma_p(t; X_p) and XpμX_p^\mu for the μ\mu-th component of dϕp(Xp)d\phi_p (X_p) we get the claimed equation.

Equation 148 follows trivially once we have this just differentiate!

The intuitive picture is much clearer, so I suggest you think about the definition of geodesic normal coordinates more thoroughly before proceeding.

Then a few small things about the next few lines:
(i) in (149), why do we symmetrise the lower indices?


Because XpνXpρX_p^\nu X_p^\rho is a symmetric tensor. If we had checked that ΓμνρμUνVρ=0\Gamma^{\mu}_{\phantom{\mu}\nu \rho} U^\nu V^\rho = 0 for arbitrary vectors Uν,VρU^\nu, V^\rho then we wouldn't need to symmetrise.

(ii) He then says "hence, for a torsion free connection......" but I don't see where he has made use of the connection being torsion free at any point in this argument?


A torsion-free connection is one such that Γμ[νρ]μ=0\Gamma^{\mu}_{\phantom{\mu}[\nu\rho]} = 0. Combine this with the previous equation to obtain that Γμνρμ=0\Gamma^{\mu}_{\phantom{\mu} \nu \rho} = 0.

(iii) And in (150) he says he has applied the above to the Levi Civita connection - how has this given us (150) though?


The Levi–Civita connection is the one such that Γμνρμ=12gμσ(gσν,ρ+gσρ,νgνρ,σ)\displaystyle \Gamma^{\mu}_{\phantom{\mu}\nu \rho} = \frac{1}{2} g^{\mu \sigma} ( g_{\sigma \nu, \rho} + g_{\sigma \rho, \nu} - g_{\nu \rho, \sigma} ).

And finally, any thoughts for the exercise on p46?


I don't know how to do it in that formalism. It's fairly straightforward in index notation: An affinely parametrised geodesic has velocity vector Uμ=x˙μU^\mu = \dot{x}^\mu satisfying U˙μ+ΓμνρμUνUρ=0\dot{U}^\mu + \Gamma^{\mu}_{\phantom{\mu}\nu \rho} U^\nu U^\rho = 0. Differentiate gμνUμUνg_{\mu \nu} U^\mu U^\nu using the product rule and you should get terms which correspond to the previous equation contracted with gμσUσg_{\mu \sigma} U^\sigma.

Edit: As for your post on 118, I'm fairly sure there should be a minus sign because of what you showed me earlier when we worked out how Yμ,νY^\mu{}_{, \nu} transforms - its unwanted term had a + sign so this way they would cancel and the covariant derivative would (as expected) transform as a tensor!
However, in your post above, why have you equated the primed version with the coordinate basis version? Just because we know what this looks like?


Yeah. It should work for arbitrary bases though, by transitivity.

And when I try and prove it, should I expand on the RHS or the LHS of that equation?


Does it matter? You'll probably have to do both.
Original post by Zhen Lin
That doesn't look right you seem to be missing a term where the index the metric is differentiated w.r.t. is contracted with a velocity vector. I can't be bothered to check your calculations this is nothing more than a simple exercise in differentiation so I'll just tell you what the general result is: gρνx¨ν+gρν,μx˙μx˙ν12gμν,ρx˙μx˙ν=0\displaystyle g_{\rho \nu} \ddot{x}^\nu + g_{\rho \nu, \mu} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu - \frac{1}{2} g_{\mu \nu, \rho} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu = 0. Raising indices, it's x¨σ+gρσ(gρν,μ12gμν,ρ)x˙μx˙ν=0\displaystyle \ddot{x}^\sigma + g^{\rho \sigma} \left( g_{\rho \nu, \mu} - \frac{1}{2} g_{\mu \nu, \rho} \right) \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu = 0. You should check that this is the same as x¨σ+Γσμνσx˙μx˙ν=0\displaystyle \ddot{x}^\sigma + \Gamma^{\sigma}_{\phantom{\sigma}\mu \nu} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu = 0.


Yeah but the whole point fo the E-L equations is that we produce a new equation that we can then compare to the geodesic equation in order to read offf the Christoffel symbols. At what point in the calculation should I substitute stuff in in order to get my xix^i equation?

Original post by Zhen Lin

Basically, by the existence and uniqueness theorem for ODEs, at every point pMp \in M, and every tangent vector XpTpMX_p \in T_p M, there is a geodesic which passes through p with tangent vector XpX_p (at p). The equation is basically justifying the abuse of notation (but I still think it's bad notation) let's try to make this clearer. Let γp(;Xp):[1,1]M\gamma_p( - ; X_p) : [-1, 1] \to M be the unique geodesic s.t. γp(0;Xp)=p\gamma_p(0; X_p) = p and γp(0;Xp)=Xp\gamma'_p(0; X_p) = X_p. Let ϕ:MRn\phi: M \to \mathbb{R}^n be the normal coordinate chart, i.e. the chart such that expϕ=id\exp \circ \phi = \mathrm{id}. Then, ϕγp(t;Xp)=tdϕp(Xp)\phi \circ \gamma_p(t; X_p) = t d\phi_p (X_p), where dϕp:TpMRnd\phi_p : T_p M \to \mathbb{R}^n gives the components of a vector w.r.t the coordinate basis induced by ϕ\phi. So, if we write Xμ(t)X^\mu (t) for the μ\mu-th component of ϕγp(t;Xp)\phi \circ \gamma_p(t; X_p) and XpμX_p^\mu for the μ\mu-th component of dϕp(Xp)d\phi_p (X_p) we get the claimed equation.

Equation 148 follows trivially once we have this just differentiate!


I don't understand this calculation:
So you've definde γp\gamma_p as the geodesic through p with tangent vector XpX_p at pMp \in M
ϕ\phi is taken to be a chart....fair enough but then why is expϕ=id\exp \circ \phi = id?
Moreover, how does this map even make sense, the domain of exp is Tp(M)T_p(M) but the codomain of ϕ\phi is Rn\mathbb{R}^n?
And where does ϕγp(t;Xp)=tdϕp(Xp)\phi \circ \gamma_p(t; X_p) = t d\phi_p (X_p) come from?

Original post by Zhen Lin

I don't know how to do it in that formalism. It's fairly straightforward in index notation: An affinely parametrised geodesic has velocity vector Uμ=x˙μU^\mu = \dot{x}^\mu satisfying U˙μ+ΓμνρμUνUρ=0\dot{U}^\mu + \Gamma^{\mu}_{\phantom{\mu}\nu \rho} U^\nu U^\rho = 0. Differentiate gμνUμUνg_{\mu \nu} U^\mu U^\nu using the product rule and you should get terms which correspond to the previous equation contracted with gμσUσg_{\mu \sigma} U^\sigma.


Ok. As far as these notes go, affine parameterisation is defined on p45 as follows:
"An affinely parameterised geodesic is an integral curve of a vector field XX where XX satisfies XX=0\nabla_XX=0.
Now my interpretation is that given XX=0\nabla_XX=0, this is the same as eqn (144) beign true which is the same as (142) being true and so it reduces to your definition i.e. an affinely parameterised geodesic has velocity vector Uμ=dxμdτU^\mu=\frac{dx^\mu}{d \tau}. Is this correct?

Secondly, in doing this calculation, I don't understand what you are asking me to do? What do I differentiate wrt to?
Surely I want to write
Unparseable latex formula:

X^\rho (g_{\mu \nu} X^\mu X^\nu)_{; \rho}=X^\rho g_{\mu \nu; \rho} X^\mu X^\nu + X^\rho g_{\mu \nu} X^\mu{}_{; \rho} X^\nu + X^\rho g_\mu \nu} X^\my X^\nu{}_{; \rho}=X^\rho g_{\mu \nu} X^\mu{}_{; \rho} X^\nu + X^\rho g_\mu \nu} X^\my X^\nu{}_{; \rho}


where in the last equality we used the fact that for the Levi Civita connection, the metric is covariantly constant.
but then the symmetry of the metric can reduce this to
2XρgμνXμ;ρXν2X^\rho g_{\mu \nu} X^\mu{}_{; \rho} X^\nu
But this is just 2g(XX,X)2g(\nabla_XX,X)
and XX=0\nabla_XX=0 for affinely parameterised geodesics so we get
2g(0,X)2g(0,X)
Now I think there should be some way of saying this is zero but I don't know how? Something to do with non-degeneracy perhaps?

I'm also confusing myself on (150),
we have gμν,ρ+gμρ,ν+gνρ,μ=0g_{\mu \nu , \rho} + g_{\mu \rho , \nu}+ g_{\nu \rho, \mu}=0
now if we antisymmetrise on μ.ν\mu.\nu we get:
gμν,ρgνμ,ρ+gμρ,νgνρ,μ+gνρ,μgμρ,ν=0g_{\mu \nu , \rho}-g{\nu \mu , \rho} + g_{\mu \rho , \nu} - g_{\nu \rho , \mu} + g_{\nu \rho, \mu} - g_{\mu \rho , \nu}=0
and this appears to reduce to 0=0
Aargh!
What am I doing wrong here? When he says antisymmetrise I'm sure he expects us to jump to
gμν,ρgνμ,ρ+g[μρ,ν]=0g_{\mu \nu , \rho}-g{\nu \mu , \rho} +g_{[ \mu | \rho | , \nu]}=0 But I don't accept this. To me it appears he has antisymmetrised the 1st term and just combined ( i.e. not bothered to antisymmetrise) the 2nd and 3rd.
Surely you can't do different operations on different terms?


Cheers!
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 38
Original post by latentcorpse
Yeah but the whole point fo the E-L equations is that we produce a new equation that we can then compare to the geodesic equation in order to read offf the Christoffel symbols. At what point in the calculation should I substitute stuff in in order to get my xix^i equation?

You can do it at any point, as long as you do it correctly!

I don't understand this calculation:
So you've definde γp\gamma_p as the geodesic through p with tangent vector XpX_p at pMp \in M
ϕ\phi is taken to be a chart....fair enough but then why is expϕ=id\exp \circ \phi = id?


I miswrote. Fix a point pMp \in M, then the exponential map at that point is expp:TpMM\exp_p : T_p M \to M. Then, the geodesic normal coordinate chart ϕ:MRn\phi : M \to \mathbb{R}^n has the property that ϕexp(dϕp)1=id\phi \circ \exp \circ (d\phi_p)^{-1} = \mathrm{id}, essentially by definition. This is just formalising the intuitive idea that the exponential map identifies points on the manifold with vectors in the tangent space.

And where does ϕγp(t;Xp)=tdϕp(Xp)\phi \circ \gamma_p(t; X_p) = t d\phi_p (X_p) come from?


Linearity, basically. γp(t;Xp)=γp(1;tXp)=exp(tXp)\gamma_p(t; X_p) = \gamma_p(1; t X_p) = \exp (t X_p) , and so ϕγp(t;Xp)=ϕexp(tXp)=dϕp(tXp)=tdϕp(Xp)\phi \circ \gamma_p(t; X_p) = \phi \circ \exp (t X_p) = d\phi_p (t X_p) = t \, d\phi_p(X_p).

Ok. As far as these notes go, affine parameterisation is defined on p45 as follows:
"An affinely parameterised geodesic is an integral curve of a vector field XX where XX satisfies XX=0\nabla_XX=0.
Now my interpretation is that given XX=0\nabla_XX=0, this is the same as eqn (144) beign true which is the same as (142) being true and so it reduces to your definition i.e. an affinely parameterised geodesic has velocity vector Uμ=dxμdτU^\mu=\frac{dx^\mu}{d \tau}. Is this correct?


Yes, I suppose so.

Secondly, in doing this calculation, I don't understand what you are asking me to do? What do I differentiate wrt to?


The parameter of the curve, of course. You'll get gμν,ρUμUνUρ+2gμνUμU˙νg_{\mu \nu, \rho} U^\mu U^\nu U^\rho + 2 g_{\mu \nu} U^\mu \dot{U}^\nu. Write out the Christoffel symbol in terms of partial derivatives of the metric, and you should see that gμσΓσνρσUμUνUρ=12gμν,ρUμUνUρ\displaystyle g_{\mu \sigma} \Gamma^\sigma_{\phantom{\sigma} \nu \rho} U^\mu U^\nu U^\rho = \frac{1}{2} g_{\mu \nu, \rho} U^\mu U^\nu U^\rho. It should be clear how to obtain the result you want from here.

2g(0,X)2g(0,X)
Now I think there should be some way of saying this is zero but I don't know how? Something to do with non-degeneracy perhaps?


g is bilinear, so g(0,X)=0g(0, X) = 0 automatically. This should be familiar from linear algebra, I hope. There's no need to invoke non-degeneracy or anything sophisticated.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Zhen Lin
You can do it at any point, as long as you do it correctly!

My attempts keep goin off course. Let's say I want to substitute in at:
ddτgρνx˙ν+gμρx˙μ+gμν,ρx˙μx˙ν=0\frac{d}{d \tau} g_{\rho \nu} \dot{x}^\nu + g_{\mu \rho} \dot{x}^\mu + g_{\mu \nu, \rho} \dot{x}^\mu \dot{x}^\nu=0
To get the equations for xix^i what should i be setting my indices equal to?
I reckon it should be ν=μ=i\nu=\mu=i, no?

Original post by Zhen Lin

I miswrote. Fix a point pMp \in M, then the exponential map at that point is expp:TpMM\exp_p : T_p M \to M. Then, the geodesic normal coordinate chart ϕ:MRn\phi : M \to \mathbb{R}^n has the property that ϕexp(dϕp)1=id\phi \circ \exp \circ (d\phi_p)^{-1} = \mathrm{id}, essentially by definition. This is just formalising the intuitive idea that the exponential map identifies points on the manifold with vectors in the tangent space.

Linearity, basically. γp(t;Xp)=γp(1;tXp)=exp(tXp)\gamma_p(t; X_p) = \gamma_p(1; t X_p) = \exp (t X_p) , and so ϕγp(t;Xp)=ϕexp(tXp)=dϕp(tXp)=tdϕp(Xp)\phi \circ \gamma_p(t; X_p) = \phi \circ \exp (t X_p) = d\phi_p (t X_p) = t \, d\phi_p(X_p).

Ok. I'm going to apologise because this kind fo stuff in particular just doesn't come very easily to me!
So, can we talk through this slowly:
(i) We're trying to show that affinely parameterised geodesics through p, in normal coordinates, satisfy Xμ(t)=tXpμX^\mu(t)=tX^\mu_p.
(ii) So we set up exp as described at teh top of p47 and our chart ϕ\phi as we've been using previously. Now you go and introduce this dϕd \phi. How did you know to introduce this and how did you know what form it would have to take?
(iii) Ok. so given the above, we define these maps s.t. ϕexp(dϕ)1=id\phi \circ exp \circ (d \phi)^{-1} = id
(iv)Now we consider the geodesic γp(,Xp):[1,1]M\gamma_p(-,X_p) : [-1,1] \rightarrow M
First of all, back on p14, we described a smooth curve as a smooth function IMI \rightarrow M where I is an open interval. Your interval is closed though?
Also, why does your interval not just go from 0 to 1. Our initial conditions are at 0 i.e. γp(0,Xp)=p,γp(0,Xp)=Xp\gamma_p(0,X_p)=p , \gamma_p'(0,X_p)=X_p
And just now that I've raised the point, we discussed smooth curves as going from open intervals into the manifolds but when we were dealing with geodesics earlier in chapter 14 we were talking about curves from p to q and how λ(0)=p\lambda(0)=p and λ(1)=q\lambda(1)=q. But how can this make sense as λ:(0,1)M \lambda : (0,1) \rightarrow M so neither 0 nor 1 are in the domain?
(iv) Given this geodesic, you tell me that γp(t,Xp)=γp(1,tXp)\gamma_p(t,X_p)=\gamma_p(1,tX_p) Why?
(v) And how does that then equal exp(tXp)exp(t X_p)?
(vi) Ok so finally we prove that ϕγ(t,Xp)=tdϕp(Xp)\phi \circ \gamma(t,X_p) = t d \phi_p (X_p). Can you explain in words how this proves Xμ(t)=tXpμX^\mu(t)=tX^\mu_p?


Original post by Zhen Lin

g is bilinear, so g(0,X)=0g(0, X) = 0 automatically. This should be familiar from linear algebra, I hope. There's no need to invoke non-degeneracy or anything sophisticated.


Ok. So I would like this method to work out seeing as I managed it myself for a change. However, if you look at the exercise on p46, it is considering the case of the Levi Civita connection. However, I don't think I have made use of the Levi Civita proiperty anywhere in my answer. I guess I used the fact that XX=0\nabla_XX=0 but this is a consequence of affine parameterisation, not of the Levi Civita connection. Have I used the property somewhere without realising it?

I'm also confusing myself on (150),
we have gμν,ρ+gμρ,ν+gνρ,μ=0g_{\mu \nu , \rho} + g_{\mu \rho , \nu}+ g_{\nu \rho, \mu}=0
now if we antisymmetrise on μ.ν\mu.\nu we get:
gμν,ρgνμ,ρ+gμρ,νgνρ,μ+gνρ,μgμρ,ν=0g_{\mu \nu , \rho}-g{\nu \mu , \rho} + g_{\mu \rho , \nu} - g_{\nu \rho , \mu} + g_{\nu \rho, \mu} - g_{\mu \rho , \nu}=0
and this appears to reduce to 0=0
Aargh!
What am I doing wrong here? When he says antisymmetrise I'm sure he expects us to jump to
gμν,ρgνμ,ρ+g[μρ,ν]=0g_{\mu \nu , \rho}-g{\nu \mu , \rho} +g_{[ \mu | \rho | , \nu]}=0 But I don't accept this. To me it appears he has antisymmetrised the 1st term and just combined ( i.e. not bothered to antisymmetrise) the 2nd and 3rd.
Surely you can't do different operations on different terms?

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