Women admit that once they hit their 30s they become invisible
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Original post by llys
It is true, but it is also the case for the many people born with below average looks who were never visible in the first place. Though I guess those people have the advantage at the age of 30 in that they had to develop a personality when they were still young. Of course, not a few people have neither looks nor personality. Let's spare a thought for them too.
Right. And we manage perfectly well without celebrities railing about our cause in national newspapers.
It's very simple:
- Men are attracted to young, good-looking women. They give them attention (positive and negative).
- Men are not attracted to older and less good-looking women, so they give them less attention.
- Conversely, women are attracted to high status, good-looking men. They give them attention.
- They are not attracted to low status, unattractive men, and thus give them less attention.
Some women have a bit of a raw deal in the sense that their good looks can bring negative attention in a way that would never happen to a man, but that is evened out by the fact that the dating market is very much a case of woman's choice: the more negative attention a woman gets, the more likely she is attractive, and thus the more likely she also has rich pickings of men to choose from. It's not ideal but it's better than being an unattractive and low status male. We certainly need to work towards ridding the world of sexism and harassment of women.
But by the same token, women need to understand that many men have no reason to buy into this when their problems still remain unanswered. Solving harassment of women is only tackling half of the problem (admittedly, the much easier half of it, since the other half is the fact that some men feel that their access to women is denied by society and thus they begin to feel entitled to have a share of what they are missing out on. It's not very politically correct but it's how some people feel and it's not something you can ever change, unless you have all low status men neutered).
People don't like to discuss this type of thing, because it makes them uncomfortable to learn the way the world actually works, and indeed this post will probably provoke aggressive and dismissive reactions from people because they are too closed-minded to bother seeing another person's perspective. But gender inequality is not on a healthy trajectory right now, and the primary reason for that is that people refuse to discuss the fact that different people have different experiences and drawing conclusions from only your own experience is bound to lead to a profound conflict of interests. You can't expect millions of years of gender relationship evolution to disappear overnight, and certainly not if your chosen method for trying to achieve this is 3rd Wave Feminist nonsense like 'men should find 60 year old women attractive since it's unfair otherwise' which is rather like trying to explain to a lion that it should become a vegetarian. It couldn't even if it wanted to.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Copperknickers
Right. And we manage perfectly well without celebrities railing about our cause in national newspapers.
It's very simple:
- Men are attracted to young, good-looking women. They give them attention (positive and negative).
- Men are not attracted to older and less good-looking women, so they give them less attention.
- Conversely, women are attracted to high status, good-looking men. They give them attention.
- They are not attracted to low status, unattractive men, and thus give them less attention.
Some women have a bit of a raw deal in the sense that their good looks can bring negative attention in a way that would never happen to a man, but that is evened out by the fact that the dating market is very much a case of woman's choice: the more negative attention a woman gets, the more likely she is attractive, and thus the more likely she also has rich pickings of men to choose from. It's not ideal but it's better than being an unattractive and low status male. We certainly need to work towards ridding the world of sexism and harassment of women.
But by the same token, women need to understand that many men have no reason to buy into this when their problems still remain unanswered. Solving harassment of women is only tackling half of the problem (admittedly, the much easier half of it, since the other half is the fact that some men feel that their access to women is denied by society and thus they begin to feel entitled to have a share of what they are missing out on. It's not very politically correct but it's how some people feel and it's not something you can ever change, unless you have all low status men neutered).
People don't like to discuss this type of thing, because it makes them uncomfortable to learn the way the world actually works, and indeed this post will probably provoke aggressive and dismissive reactions from people because they are too closed-minded to bother seeing another person's perspective. But gender inequality is not on a healthy trajectory right now, and the primary reason for that is that people refuse to discuss the fact that different people have different experiences and drawing conclusions from only your own experience is bound to lead to a profound conflict of interests. You can't expect millions of years of gender relationship evolution to disappear overnight, and certainly not if your chosen method for trying to achieve this is 3rd Wave Feminist nonsense like 'men should find 60 year old women attractive since it's unfair otherwise' which is rather like trying to explain to a lion that it should become a vegetarian. It couldn't even if it wanted to.
It's very simple:
- Men are attracted to young, good-looking women. They give them attention (positive and negative).
- Men are not attracted to older and less good-looking women, so they give them less attention.
- Conversely, women are attracted to high status, good-looking men. They give them attention.
- They are not attracted to low status, unattractive men, and thus give them less attention.
Some women have a bit of a raw deal in the sense that their good looks can bring negative attention in a way that would never happen to a man, but that is evened out by the fact that the dating market is very much a case of woman's choice: the more negative attention a woman gets, the more likely she is attractive, and thus the more likely she also has rich pickings of men to choose from. It's not ideal but it's better than being an unattractive and low status male. We certainly need to work towards ridding the world of sexism and harassment of women.
But by the same token, women need to understand that many men have no reason to buy into this when their problems still remain unanswered. Solving harassment of women is only tackling half of the problem (admittedly, the much easier half of it, since the other half is the fact that some men feel that their access to women is denied by society and thus they begin to feel entitled to have a share of what they are missing out on. It's not very politically correct but it's how some people feel and it's not something you can ever change, unless you have all low status men neutered).
People don't like to discuss this type of thing, because it makes them uncomfortable to learn the way the world actually works, and indeed this post will probably provoke aggressive and dismissive reactions from people because they are too closed-minded to bother seeing another person's perspective. But gender inequality is not on a healthy trajectory right now, and the primary reason for that is that people refuse to discuss the fact that different people have different experiences and drawing conclusions from only your own experience is bound to lead to a profound conflict of interests. You can't expect millions of years of gender relationship evolution to disappear overnight, and certainly not if your chosen method for trying to achieve this is 3rd Wave Feminist nonsense like 'men should find 60 year old women attractive since it's unfair otherwise' which is rather like trying to explain to a lion that it should become a vegetarian. It couldn't even if it wanted to.
The problem with this gender relationship evolution is that it doesn't look at the whole picture, people are influenced by society, media and their own personalities. In general we know that men and women are attracted to good looks and that these reduce with age (loss of hair, skin elasticity etc) yet some people are still attracted to much older people ie Cougars and sugar daddy's and value them for their experience. Some people do find certain 60 year old women and men attractive. Many people don't even find the opposite sex attractive yet I don't hear anything about this evolution theory explaining the biology behind this.
From my experience, in terms of women feeling invisible it's important to bear in mind that women often ask for more than men. Women tend to want relationships whereas men are often happy to just have no strings sex. A woman, if she has looked after herself, can generally get sex up to an old age, it's relationships which are harder to get and so women will feel hard done to. It's stupid of feminism to state that 60 year old women should be found attractive since besides the few sugar daddy seekers most 60 year old men are not, so that wouldn't be equality. A better feminist approach is to promote other values in women besides some ideal look. The evolution theory is just one theory showing only part of the picture. It's not just biology but society and media are proven to have a heavy influence on what we find attractive and to an extent women's values and age won't be excluded in this. For example it is drilled into our heads that a skirt is feminine and that trousers are masculine, this isn't biology ..a skirt is just a piece of material yet somehow we swear that skirts only look natural and attractive on women.
I think an important aspect to understanding why women become more undesirable as they age is a theory called 'sexual market value'.
The basic idea is that when a woman is young, she is more attractive, fertile, happy, etc. This means she has a high sexual market value. As time progresses she loses these attributes, and hence loses this 'value' (I'm not saying they become worthless or something just less desirable to men for a relationship)
Men on the other hand start at the other end: We mature mentally at a slower rate so we're more immature when we're younger, we have no money because we don't work much/ haven't built a career, sure we're fertile but male fertility continues on for a good while longer than it does for women who have to deal with the wonders of menopause. So as men age they become more mature (mentally), get better careers / earn more money, and we're still fertile for a while longer to consider having a relationship / family etc.
So women start as very desirable, with a high sexual market value and end up as mad cat ladies (joke) with low sexual market value if they don't get married by their 30's because all the men are too busy chasing the fresh 20 year old girls.
And men in their 20's are fairly undesirable as they have little to no money and spend a tremendous amount of time trying to impress women their age that aren't interested in them because we're stupid and have no cash to buy them nice things. I'm not saying buying nice things is a cornerstone of a relationship but being financially stable definitely helps. We then go on to (hopefully) get a good career and make some money, and we've wised up a bit so are more entertaining, and we're financially stable and we're still fertile and thus can still start families.
I've spoken to one particularly old friend (60's) who's done well for himself financially and he said he would never consider finding a woman of his age and instead goes for young women in the 20's bracket. Because they're pretty, that simple really. He summarised: "Do you really want someone as old, ugly and physically useless as you are looking after you when you get to my age?". And he has a point there.
Remember this is my perspective, look up sexual market value if you want some more information on the topic - good place to look would be a guy on Youtube called Stefan Molyneux.
The basic idea is that when a woman is young, she is more attractive, fertile, happy, etc. This means she has a high sexual market value. As time progresses she loses these attributes, and hence loses this 'value' (I'm not saying they become worthless or something just less desirable to men for a relationship)
Men on the other hand start at the other end: We mature mentally at a slower rate so we're more immature when we're younger, we have no money because we don't work much/ haven't built a career, sure we're fertile but male fertility continues on for a good while longer than it does for women who have to deal with the wonders of menopause. So as men age they become more mature (mentally), get better careers / earn more money, and we're still fertile for a while longer to consider having a relationship / family etc.
So women start as very desirable, with a high sexual market value and end up as mad cat ladies (joke) with low sexual market value if they don't get married by their 30's because all the men are too busy chasing the fresh 20 year old girls.
And men in their 20's are fairly undesirable as they have little to no money and spend a tremendous amount of time trying to impress women their age that aren't interested in them because we're stupid and have no cash to buy them nice things. I'm not saying buying nice things is a cornerstone of a relationship but being financially stable definitely helps. We then go on to (hopefully) get a good career and make some money, and we've wised up a bit so are more entertaining, and we're financially stable and we're still fertile and thus can still start families.
I've spoken to one particularly old friend (60's) who's done well for himself financially and he said he would never consider finding a woman of his age and instead goes for young women in the 20's bracket. Because they're pretty, that simple really. He summarised: "Do you really want someone as old, ugly and physically useless as you are looking after you when you get to my age?". And he has a point there.
Remember this is my perspective, look up sexual market value if you want some more information on the topic - good place to look would be a guy on Youtube called Stefan Molyneux.
Kim Kardashian (35) people apparently never tire of seeing pictures of her.
---
Good point regarding age differences in films - dunno if Johnny Depp's going to be typical though cos he does quite a lot of fairly unconventional films... I'd have thought hollywood action moves were worse tbh and I don't even have any idea about what's normal in the biggest film industry in the world... bollywood (though I've heard the male stars there have enormous long careers too)
Brad Pitt (b. 1963) has been mentioned - but unusually his breakthrough role was banging a couple of cougars in 'Thelma and Louise' (1991) who were played by Susan Sarandon (b. 1946) with Geena Davis (b. 1956) perhaps there to sweeten the deal.
---
Good point regarding age differences in films - dunno if Johnny Depp's going to be typical though cos he does quite a lot of fairly unconventional films... I'd have thought hollywood action moves were worse tbh and I don't even have any idea about what's normal in the biggest film industry in the world... bollywood (though I've heard the male stars there have enormous long careers too)
Brad Pitt (b. 1963) has been mentioned - but unusually his breakthrough role was banging a couple of cougars in 'Thelma and Louise' (1991) who were played by Susan Sarandon (b. 1946) with Geena Davis (b. 1956) perhaps there to sweeten the deal.
Original post by stefano865
Ageing is somewhat harsher on women. Men, if anything, have a higher value in their 40s and 50s.
Ageing is somewhat harsher on women. Men, if anything, have a higher value in their 40s and 50s.
I reckon women have certain distinct advantages when they are younger, so it all works out in the end. Both sexes get their "time" I guess.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Think about the poor pornstars.. they get cast off mid 20's as younger fresher talent moves up
I agree its a tough industry to break in
Absolutely ****ing love being a guy. I am 25 in 2 months and most guys and girls my age are dropping off big time in the looks department. I am basically in the best shape and aesthetic look of my life.
Used to struggle in nightclubs in my late teens. These days. I walk in and boom boom result.
****ing beautiful. SIck life.
Used to struggle in nightclubs in my late teens. These days. I walk in and boom boom result.
****ing beautiful. SIck life.
Original post by Death Grips
I know.
I was actually initially going to respond "what are you talking about? we're talking about relationships here, not careers", but decided take another route.
I was actually initially going to respond "what are you talking about? we're talking about relationships here, not careers", but decided take another route.
Obviously I shouldn't post when I'm tired. What I was getting at: if you choose a hugely image-based career like acting, you will almost inevitably end up becoming invisible as you get older (the original post was about women not getting work in Hollywood after a certain age). Therefore, pick a career which values different assets.
Since the discussion has been more about attraction in relationships than job security, I'd suggest taking a similar approach to dating. It's not hard to find men who value personality over looks. And a man who just loves you for your looks is a man who will leave.
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(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Henry3
I've spoken to one particularly old friend (60's) who's done well for himself financially and he said he would never consider finding a woman of his age and instead goes for young women in the 20's bracket. Because they're pretty, that simple really. He summarised: "Do you really want someone as old, ugly and physically useless as you are looking after you when you get to my age?". And he has a point there.
.
I've spoken to one particularly old friend (60's) who's done well for himself financially and he said he would never consider finding a woman of his age and instead goes for young women in the 20's bracket. Because they're pretty, that simple really. He summarised: "Do you really want someone as old, ugly and physically useless as you are looking after you when you get to my age?". And he has a point there.
.
But what woman in her 20s who is very pretty would want someone who is physically useless? I think you're being naive about the allure of money. At the end of the day a 20 year old woman will want to have sex with someone she finds physically attractive. If he deems himself useless in that department bearing in mind the massive difference in life expectancy very very few women in their 20s will find him an attractive partner in real life.
There was no way I would have dated anyone over 35 in my early 20s let alone 50. I don't think I'd date anyone over 40 now and I've just turned 30. Black don't crack though and Im not interested in leathery old skin.
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Original post by Death Grips
http://jezebel.com/aging-actress-maggie-gyllenhaal-too-old-to-play-55-year-1705998078
Was reading article above of Maggie gyllenhall where at 37 she was too old to be casted as a 55 yr olds love interest.
Top comments were other women are agreeing:
Hollywood cast females 30yrs younger then the male, and the sad part is it doesn't even look out of place. Here are some graphs that add to notion that once women hit 30s they're not seen as desirable any more
http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2013/04/18/JohnnyDepp.o.png/a_610x756.png
http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2013/04/18/DenzelWashington.o.png/a_610x750.png
http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2013/04/18/TomCruise.o.png/a_610x749.png
Was reading article above of Maggie gyllenhall where at 37 she was too old to be casted as a 55 yr olds love interest.
Top comments were other women are agreeing:
Hollywood cast females 30yrs younger then the male, and the sad part is it doesn't even look out of place. Here are some graphs that add to notion that once women hit 30s they're not seen as desirable any more
http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2013/04/18/JohnnyDepp.o.png/a_610x756.png
http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2013/04/18/DenzelWashington.o.png/a_610x750.png
http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2013/04/18/TomCruise.o.png/a_610x749.png
I'm a male and I was pretty invisible up to the age of 35, at which point I became highly visible.
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Original post by Eveiebaby
But what woman in her 20s who is very pretty would want someone who is physically useless? I think you're being naive about the allure of money. At the end of the day a 20 year old woman will want to have sex with someone she finds physically attractive. If he deems himself useless in that department bearing in mind the massive difference in life expectancy very very few women in their 20s will find him an attractive partner in real life.
There was no way I would have dated anyone over 35 in my early 20s let alone 50. I don't think I'd date anyone over 40 now and I've just turned 30. Black don't crack though and Im not interested in leathery old skin.
Posted from TSR Mobile
There was no way I would have dated anyone over 35 in my early 20s let alone 50. I don't think I'd date anyone over 40 now and I've just turned 30. Black don't crack though and Im not interested in leathery old skin.
Posted from TSR Mobile
I've actually heard multiple guys in their 50s say they want a woman in her 20s so they'll have someone to look after them when they're old and decrepit. Makes me laugh every time. What makes them think a woman in her 40s is going to tie herself to a miserable life with an elderly man who only wanted her for her looks anyway?
Original post by PangXie
I've actually heard multiple guys in their 50s say they want a woman in her 20s so they'll have someone to look after them when they're old and decrepit. Makes me laugh every time. What makes them think a woman in her 40s is going to tie herself to a miserable life with an elderly man who only wanted her for her looks anyway?
Yes. That's just arrogance of the highest. What is the woman getting out of any of this? Someone old, leathery with no energy who is prone to heart attacks and other degenerative disease and will most likely die sooner than you. Not to mention the likelihood of having past wives and grown up children to battle with. No thanks. I'll keep my suitors under 40 thanks.
Every woman is going to lose her looks so I think it's pointless trying to chase youth like this. Eventually you will need to settle with one woman or whatever you can get and that I bet that will be a humbling learning experience. People shouldn't kid themselves that they'll be a high rolling older baller. Very few will.
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(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Eveiebaby
That's just arrogance of the highest. What is the woman getting out of any of this? Someone old, leathery with no energy who is prone to heart attacks and other degenerative disease and will most likely die sooner than you. Not to mention the likelihood of having past wives and grown up children to battle with. No thanks. I'll keep my suitors under 40 thanks.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
"Well darling, you only wanted me because I was young, fit and gorgeous, but now you're old, leathery and dying, of course I'll stay with you!"
Totally going to happen.
Original post by Henry3
I think an important aspect to understanding why women become more undesirable as they age is a theory called 'sexual market value'.
The basic idea is that when a woman is young, she is more attractive, fertile, happy, etc. This means she has a high sexual market value. As time progresses she loses these attributes, and hence loses this 'value' (I'm not saying they become worthless or something just less desirable to men for a relationship)
Men on the other hand start at the other end: We mature mentally at a slower rate so we're more immature when we're younger, we have no money because we don't work much/ haven't built a career, sure we're fertile but male fertility continues on for a good while longer than it does for women who have to deal with the wonders of menopause. So as men age they become more mature (mentally), get better careers / earn more money, and we're still fertile for a while longer to consider having a relationship / family etc.
So women start as very desirable, with a high sexual market value and end up as mad cat ladies (joke) with low sexual market value if they don't get married by their 30's because all the men are too busy chasing the fresh 20 year old girls.
And men in their 20's are fairly undesirable as they have little to no money and spend a tremendous amount of time trying to impress women their age that aren't interested in them because we're stupid and have no cash to buy them nice things. I'm not saying buying nice things is a cornerstone of a relationship but being financially stable definitely helps. We then go on to (hopefully) get a good career and make some money, and we've wised up a bit so are more entertaining, and we're financially stable and we're still fertile and thus can still start families.
I've spoken to one particularly old friend (60's) who's done well for himself financially and he said he would never consider finding a woman of his age and instead goes for young women in the 20's bracket. Because they're pretty, that simple really. He summarised: "Do you really want someone as old, ugly and physically useless as you are looking after you when you get to my age?". And he has a point there.
Remember this is my perspective, look up sexual market value if you want some more information on the topic - good place to look would be a guy on Youtube called Stefan Molyneux.
The basic idea is that when a woman is young, she is more attractive, fertile, happy, etc. This means she has a high sexual market value. As time progresses she loses these attributes, and hence loses this 'value' (I'm not saying they become worthless or something just less desirable to men for a relationship)
Men on the other hand start at the other end: We mature mentally at a slower rate so we're more immature when we're younger, we have no money because we don't work much/ haven't built a career, sure we're fertile but male fertility continues on for a good while longer than it does for women who have to deal with the wonders of menopause. So as men age they become more mature (mentally), get better careers / earn more money, and we're still fertile for a while longer to consider having a relationship / family etc.
So women start as very desirable, with a high sexual market value and end up as mad cat ladies (joke) with low sexual market value if they don't get married by their 30's because all the men are too busy chasing the fresh 20 year old girls.
And men in their 20's are fairly undesirable as they have little to no money and spend a tremendous amount of time trying to impress women their age that aren't interested in them because we're stupid and have no cash to buy them nice things. I'm not saying buying nice things is a cornerstone of a relationship but being financially stable definitely helps. We then go on to (hopefully) get a good career and make some money, and we've wised up a bit so are more entertaining, and we're financially stable and we're still fertile and thus can still start families.
I've spoken to one particularly old friend (60's) who's done well for himself financially and he said he would never consider finding a woman of his age and instead goes for young women in the 20's bracket. Because they're pretty, that simple really. He summarised: "Do you really want someone as old, ugly and physically useless as you are looking after you when you get to my age?". And he has a point there.
Remember this is my perspective, look up sexual market value if you want some more information on the topic - good place to look would be a guy on Youtube called Stefan Molyneux.
Not all men mature slower Im female and matured slower than most of my peers at 17 I was still a tomboy climbing buildings/ trees, playing football and people have always said I look really young, whereas some guys my age were the very mature smart type, some look bald and old now it all depends on the individual.
Original post by indigofox
There are loads of hot guys under 25 with a string of girlfriends and there are lots of nerdy unpopular girls under 25 who can't get a bf.
Yeah hot guys. The rest of men are invisible until they become walking cash points. Even the average ones. The girls who tend not to have partners tend to be the ugliest ones or the ones who abstain for religious reasons.
Original post by indigofox
Not all men mature slower Im female and matured slower than most of my peers at 17 I was still a tomboy climbing buildings/ trees, playing football and people have always said I look really young, whereas some guys my age were the very mature smart type, some look bald and old now it all depends on the individual.
He's talking about averages, a couple outliers doesn't really mean anything. It doesn't "just depend on the individual" there are more similarities between people of the same gender then differences.
Original post by BhagwanNoBhool
He's talking about averages, a couple outliers doesn't really mean anything. It doesn't "just depend on the individual" there are more similarities between people of the same gender then differences.
Of course everyone is different, people are not robots.
Back on topic in reality everyone knows you get middle aged people who look good and can attract and you get those who find it difficult male and female. Older mates are often seeked out by females and younger by males but on by several years say 4 or 5 year age gap. Not generally by 20 and 30 years as some on here seem to suggest thats a huge exaggeration. If this were true the average sight would be to see 50 year old men walking around with 25 year olds. If men get more attractive with age I wonder why we dont see this, I look around at middle aged people who date and see people of similar ages ha.
Maggie Gylenhaal was never desirable in the first place. She looks like she teleported from the 1940s.
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