The majority of medical students come from affluent neighbourhoods.

Original post by Duncan2012

Who? How many? Please provide links and references if you're going to make points based upon numbers.

Or are you trying to turn this into a 'tuition fees are bad' thread?

I think it’s very quickly turning into the oppression narrative rather than actually asking a question based on working class access to the medical profession.

Reply 22

Original post by Mikardo88

This is completely correct. The original question however was “how can we widen access?” This doesn’t answer that question. Rather it gets to the root of the actual problem.

It seems that some understand the problem to be within our social structure rather than lying at the feet of the individual. Clearly, the way to attain higher recruitment of medical professionals from working class backgrounds is to get those individuals to engage and take responsibility for their grades/performance and AIM HIGH. It will not benefit anyone by merely widening access to the profession.

I think that many high achieving but disadvantaged pupils at GCSE stage still don't consider that university "is for the likes of them ". And often parents and teachers either through misinformation (e.g. poor parents often don't understand university funding) or whatever don't encourage those pupils to continue to "aim high".

Given the extra requirements needed to have a successful medicine application outreach needs to be much more proactive and earlier in the school calendar. Maybe all pupils achieving a good number of 7/A+ GCSEs should get an invite to a Year 11 summer open day (or Sept right at the start of Y12) at a local medschool?

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Reply 23

Original post by Mikardo88

Unless you are a foreign student studying in the UK then student fees are not a problem. The fees are only paid according to your earnings when you are in full time work.

Many Y11 & Y12 pupils, especially in disadvantaged circumstances, don't understand that. So they rule themselves out of university at an early stage.

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(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 24

Colour me shocked (!)

Reply 25

Original post by Doonesbury

I think that many high achieving but disadvantaged pupils at GCSE stage still don't consider that university "is for the likes of them ".

Posted from TSR Mobile

I can relate. My Mam and Dad encouraged it (not in an over the top way) but in our school we all very much felt like university was something other people - 'better' people, even - did. It was talked about but a great deal of us didn't see it as a real option. It was something better off people went and did, not us.

Reply 26

Arran90

Original post by Doonesbury

I think that many high achieving but disadvantaged pupils at GCSE stage still don't consider that university "is for the likes of them ". And often parents and teachers either through misinformation (e.g. poor parents often don't understand university funding) or whatever don't encourage those pupils to continue to "aim high".

The home education community has been saying for years that children from disadvantaged backgrounds need teachers that know how the real world works (and of course spend time teaching it to them) rather than those that just know the curriculum subjects.

Secondary school education is abstract and can only be properly appreciated, or even comprehended, by people who know how the real world works.

Original post by Doonesbury

The main problem really is improving the academic attainment of disadvantaged pupils

Read above for the secret of how to improve the academic attainment of disadvantaged pupils. Don't believe me? Then tell me what you think the answer is.

Reply 27

Original post by Arran90

Read above for the secret of how to improve the academic attainment of disadvantaged pupils. Don't believe me? Then tell me what you think the answer is.

You think most teachers don't know how "the real world works"?

Reply 28

Arran90

Original post by Doonesbury

You think most teachers don't know how "the real world works"?

Those who can do, and those who can't teach!!!

A significant proportion of teachers go to school then to teacher training college then back to school again with limited exposure in the real world. Even the career structure for teaching is very different from that in the private sector, or medicine for that matter.

I certainly know that most teachers (I have encountered) know naff all about the workings of the engineering industry. They also don't seem to know much about careers in mushroom farming.

Reply 29

Original post by Arran90

Those who can do, and those who can't teach!!!

A significant proportion of teachers go to school then to teacher training college then back to school again with limited exposure in the real world. Even the career structure for teaching is very different from that in the private sector, or medicine for that matter.

I certainly know that most teachers (I have encountered) know naff all about the workings of the engineering industry. They also don't seem to know much about careers in mushroom farming.

They don't need to know much about engineering or mushroom farming to know about "the real world".

And what does this have to do with improving university participation in general, and for medicine in particular?

Here's a question for you: I have no idea if university progression rates are higher amongst home schooled children with a similar household financial background... are they?

PS. Your quote is BS. Do you think great educators like Richard Feynman can't "do"?

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 30

Original post by Doonesbury

They don't need to know much about engineering or mushroom farming to know about "the real world".

And what does this have to do with improving university participation in general, and for medicine in particular?

Here's a question for you: I have no idea if university progression rates are higher amongst home schooled children with a similar household financial background... are they?

PS. Your quote is BS. Do you think great educators like Richard Feynman can't "do"?

The great Carl Rogers has a fascinating chapter in his book Becoming A Person relating to teaching and employing a different technique to the standard classroom environment. I highly recommend looking it up if you are interested in that sort of thing.

Reply 31

the bear

most rag and bone men come from lower socio-economic backgrounds.... :shock:

Reply 32

Original post by Joleee

how many people?

The figure for people who are brought up in working class families who go on to be higher earners is 12.5%. Not as many as is desirable but also not insignificant. The data was drawn from a government study into social mobility.

Reply 33

I was taught by working class locals (ex miners, ex military, ex glassworkers, and some career teachers that had similar sorts of backgrounds to us). They certainly knew a great deal about how our 'real world' operated and they were desperate for us not to fall into that trap. The problem was bigger than the teaching staff.

Reply 34

Original post by Arran90

Those who can do, and those who can't teach!!!

A significant proportion of teachers go to school then to teacher training college then back to school again with limited exposure in the real world. Even the career structure for teaching is very different from that in the private sector, or medicine for that matter.

I certainly know that most teachers (I have encountered) know naff all about the workings of the engineering industry. They also don't seem to know much about careers in mushroom farming.

Do you expect teaching staff to be omniscient?

Reply 35

CTLeafez

22

Original post by Doonesbury

Many Y11 & Y12 pupils, especially in disadvantaged circumstances, don't understand that. So they rule themselves out of university at an early stage.

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I can confirm I believed this before someone from UCAS came into my Sixth Form at the end of Year 12 and did a presentation on Uni life, SFE etc. When I told my mum I wanted to go to Uni, she wasn't happy at all! She thought she'd be out of pocket paying for it. I'm now the 1st person in my family to go to Uni :h:

There definitely needs to be many more opportunities to give relevant information much earlier in a student's academic journey.

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 36

Joleee

19

Original post by Mikardo88

The figure for people who are brought up in working class families who go on to be higher earners is 12.5%. Not as many as is desirable but also not insignificant. The data was drawn from a government study into social mobility.

so 87.5% born into working class remain working class. that proves my original point.

Reply 37

Original post by Joleee

so 87.5% born into working class remain working class. that proves my original point.

Indeed. The main factor affecting a student's future earnings is their parents earnings.

Reply 38

Original post by Joleee

so 87.5% born into working class remain working class. that proves my original point.

Only in the sense that it is difficult to better yourself. I mean that’s pretty damn obvious.

What it doesn’t prove however is that we are all in a power game dominated by a patriarchal society where everyone is held back by old men in suits. Our society has its flaws. We all know that. But if you can prove your competency in any field then you will go far. Employers want highly skilled people. They don’t care if you are born in Dunstable or Cambridge if you can prove your worth.

Reply 39

username738914