Is it fair for men who transition into women to compete with biological women?
This is a touchy subject and a lot of people have been criticised for voicing their opinions. I do not discriminate against anyone who soo chooses to transition btw.
I personally believe that the men who transition into women or who want to identify as such will have a massive advantage and this should not be allowed. They should compete , however , not against natural born women. Taking it further , i do not believe that men who transition into women are biological women.This is my opinion and if others believe otherwise , i would disagree but respect their opinion though.
The political climate seems to suggest that if i say this , i am discriminating but i don't think i am.
I would like to hear the opinions of why anyone thinks this is right or wrong.
I personally believe that the men who transition into women or who want to identify as such will have a massive advantage and this should not be allowed. They should compete , however , not against natural born women. Taking it further , i do not believe that men who transition into women are biological women.This is my opinion and if others believe otherwise , i would disagree but respect their opinion though.
The political climate seems to suggest that if i say this , i am discriminating but i don't think i am.
I would like to hear the opinions of why anyone thinks this is right or wrong.
Scroll to see replies
This video is quite long but is interesting. It attempts to refute arguments against trans-women competing with cis-women. You could just read their sources.
Also responding to people demonstrating differences between cis-woman and cis-men rather than cis-women and post HRT trans-women.(edited 4 years ago)
Definitely not.
Yeah , it is almost 50 minutes , so i gave up. I will try to watch it in a bit, apparently the person has good points. Castor Semenya lost her appeal today or yesterday? The governing body wanted her to reduce her testosterone because it was way higher than all other female athletes and she was winning races by ridiculous margins.
Her case is different( i think she is intersex) from transgender athletes but the courts , i think, said that she would have to reduce her levels of testerone for her to race with women. It's not her fault but it is not fair for the other athletes. I have followed her career and yeah , i think the court is right in some ways. She has some male aspects about her and it's unfortunate but i think correct. Good athlete though.
Her case is different( i think she is intersex) from transgender athletes but the courts , i think, said that she would have to reduce her levels of testerone for her to race with women. It's not her fault but it is not fair for the other athletes. I have followed her career and yeah , i think the court is right in some ways. She has some male aspects about her and it's unfortunate but i think correct. Good athlete though.
Original post by Obolinda
This video is quite long but is interesting. It attempts to refute arguments against trans-women competing with cis-women. You could just read their sources. Also responding to people demonstrating differences between cis-woman and cis-men rather than cis-women and post HRT trans-women.
This video is quite long but is interesting. It attempts to refute arguments against trans-women competing with cis-women. You could just read their sources.
Also responding to people demonstrating differences between cis-woman and cis-men rather than cis-women and post HRT trans-women.Original post by Joleee
for clarity what's the massive advantage? 
levels of testerone , muscles mass/fibres,height/strength. I think an average male gone through puberty and full developed will have a lot of advantage over an average female. Look at the pros,World record for women in 10,000m is 29:17 by Almaz Ayana. If a man ran that , they wouldn't even qualify to go to the previous olympics(Rio)
It is a tough one. Gender or even sex is not that binary or clean cut. Don't believe me, look at intersex people they can't just be shoved into a male or female box.
Even if one genetically fits into the male or female box they could have thyroid or hormones which don't match the average male or female characteristics. One can be a genetic natal cis female not intersex and have hyperandrogenism (eg Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome PCOS) and display 'male' characteristics, for example, a deep voice, grow full facial hair etc. Caster Semenya is rumoured to have hyperandrogenism.
Have a look at my post on her being forced to artificially lower her testosterone levels if she wants to compete internationally.
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5923380
Even if one genetically fits into the male or female box they could have thyroid or hormones which don't match the average male or female characteristics. One can be a genetic natal cis female not intersex and have hyperandrogenism (eg Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome PCOS) and display 'male' characteristics, for example, a deep voice, grow full facial hair etc. Caster Semenya is rumoured to have hyperandrogenism.
Have a look at my post on her being forced to artificially lower her testosterone levels if she wants to compete internationally.
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5923380
No, a cis man gone through puberty still has the advantages over cis women even on oestrogen
Shes pretty much a man though to be fair. Look at that chest! No chance shes a women
Original post by Tootles
However they identify, biological males have denser muscles and bones than biological females. This gives them a clear advantage. This aside, the significantly higher levels of testosterone in their systems should itself be grounds for banning from female competitions.
Original post by tjblonks
Yeah , it is almost 50 minutes , so i gave up. I will try to watch it in a bit, apparently the person has good points. Castor Semenya lost her appeal today or yesterday? The governing body wanted her to reduce her testosterone because it was way higher than all other female athletes and she was winning races by ridiculous margins.
Her case is different( i think she is intersex) from transgender athletes but the courts , i think, said that she would have to reduce her levels of testerone for her to race with women. It's not her fault but it is not fair for the other athletes. I have followed her career and yeah , i think the court is right in some ways. She has some male aspects about her and it's unfortunate but i think correct. Good athlete though.
Her case is different( i think she is intersex) from transgender athletes but the courts , i think, said that she would have to reduce her levels of testerone for her to race with women. It's not her fault but it is not fair for the other athletes. I have followed her career and yeah , i think the court is right in some ways. She has some male aspects about her and it's unfortunate but i think correct. Good athlete though.
Original post by tjblonks
i do not believe that men who transition into women are biological women.
you don't really need to 'believe' this; it is, without debate, impossible to changes one's chromosomes
Original post by Passwordisyou
Shes pretty much a man though to be fair. Look at that chest! No chance shes a women
I didn't watch it. I don't acknowledge TG anyway, you can't decide on reality because you're dissatisfied with it.
Disatisfied with what exactly?
Original post by Tootles
I didn't watch it. I don't acknowledge TG anyway, you can't decide on reality because you're dissatisfied with it.
Original post by Tootles
However they identify, biological males have denser muscles and bones than biological females. This gives them a clear advantage. This aside, the significantly higher levels of testosterone in their systems should itself be grounds for banning from female competitions.
While I’m also in favour of not allowing biological males to compete again biological females I have heard one relatively persuasive argument: Sports is never going to be, and never has been, a level playing field. Me and Usain Bolt did not start at the same point with him excelling because of training. He has biological advantages. Of course the rebuttal to this would be that his advantage is smaller than the advantage a man would have over a woman but I’m sufficiently ignorant to the science to not know if that’s the case.
If any one of the top 700 professional male tennis players were to transition they would beat Serena Williams hands down.
If numbers in society declaring themselves trans continue to rise at the same rate individual women's professional sport will be dead in a generation.
The proof that it gives an unfair advantage is also seen in the fact that trans men (f2m) never go on to play professional sport against cis men.
They don't have the bone density the muscle mass even the amount of oxygen in their red blood cells.
If numbers in society declaring themselves trans continue to rise at the same rate individual women's professional sport will be dead in a generation.
The proof that it gives an unfair advantage is also seen in the fact that trans men (f2m) never go on to play professional sport against cis men.
They don't have the bone density the muscle mass even the amount of oxygen in their red blood cells.
if you accept that they do have an unfair advantage..
and if you accept that the number of individuals transitioning is increasing, especially among younger people who in 10 years will be the next generation of sports people..
then you have a few options:
1, let people play in their assigned genders.
result: trans-men can never compete professionally against cis men. Some female sports become dominated by trans athletes, especially strength-based sports. Which sport depends on luck, on which of the small number of trans people go into which area of competition.
2, Create a seperate trans sporting league.
result: trans-sports become so niche, because there are so few of them at a high level, that they cease to be relevant and are not satisfied being 'discriminated' against
3, Remove all gender barriers in sport and make it all equal for all genders
result: trans people can all compete in anyway they like. Female atheletes die out because they can never compete with the male ones
---
I think most trans activists fall into one of two catagories on this:
Either they deny the biology, and really don't believe they have an advantage. Which is about as scientifically litterate as denying climate change
Or for most of them, I think they are just banking on so few trans people actually competing, that it never becomes a major issue.
and if you accept that the number of individuals transitioning is increasing, especially among younger people who in 10 years will be the next generation of sports people..
then you have a few options:
1, let people play in their assigned genders.
result: trans-men can never compete professionally against cis men. Some female sports become dominated by trans athletes, especially strength-based sports. Which sport depends on luck, on which of the small number of trans people go into which area of competition.
2, Create a seperate trans sporting league.
result: trans-sports become so niche, because there are so few of them at a high level, that they cease to be relevant and are not satisfied being 'discriminated' against
3, Remove all gender barriers in sport and make it all equal for all genders
result: trans people can all compete in anyway they like. Female atheletes die out because they can never compete with the male ones
---
I think most trans activists fall into one of two catagories on this:
Either they deny the biology, and really don't believe they have an advantage. Which is about as scientifically litterate as denying climate change
Or for most of them, I think they are just banking on so few trans people actually competing, that it never becomes a major issue.
Teenage boys are stronger than professional female athletes so no lol
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