The Student Room Group

Particle on a circle - Benzene application

In a crude model of benzene, the six pi electrons are assumed to occupy the lowest energy levels of an electron on a ring system, with r = 140 pm, obeying the usual aufbau and pauli principles.

Use this model to predict the wavelength of EM radiation required to excite an electron from the HOMO to LUMO.

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Is this the best way to go about this? Apologies for the notes, dont know how to write equations on TSR. So I'd calculate deltaE between m=3 and m=4 using the equation provided along with I = mr^2. Then having calculated deltaE I would use the de broglie equation to caluclate the wavelength?

Thanks

photo (6).JPG
Reply 1
Looks good to me, although in this model isn't the ground state m=0 case?
Reply 2
Original post by Bradshaw
Looks good to me, although in this model isn't the ground state m=0 case?


I always forget with the particle on a circle, isnt m=0 disallowed because of the solutions to the SE, psi(theta) = Am.cos(m.theta) and psi(theta) = Am.sin(m.theta) where Am = normalisation coefficient. When m = 0 the cos part = 1 which is fine but then the sin part = 0 which implies the wavefunction is zero over all space, which cant be normalised. So dont we disregard m = 0?

Thanks for the help!
Reply 3
The boundary condition for the circle is that ψ(0)=ψ(2π) \psi (0)=\psi (2 \pi)

A constant wavefunction satisfies this and so I think should be fine.
Reply 4
Original post by DonnieBrasco
So dont we disregard m = 0?


No, if you go through all the maths, you should get

ψ(θ)=12πeimθ\psi(\theta) = \displaystyle \sqrt{\frac{1}{2\pi}} e^{im\theta}

so that

ψ(0)=12π\psi(0) = \displaystyle \sqrt{\frac{1}{2\pi}}

And so the wavefn is non-zero. This won't change your answer, though, because the excitation you're looking at is now from the m=3 HSOMO to the m=4 LUMO.

Original post by Bradshaw
The boundary condition for the circle is that ψ(0)=ψ(2π) \psi (0)=\psi (2 \pi)

A constant wavefunction satisfies this and so I think should be fine.


Of course, the boundary condition is ψ(θ)=ψ(θ+2π)\psi(\theta) = \psi(\theta+2\pi), or we could define some wavefn such that it meets up at θ0 mod 2π\theta \equiv 0\ \mathrm{mod}\ 2\pi but not at any other values. :tongue:
Reply 5
Original post by BJack
No, if you go through all the maths, you should get


Ah OK, but then with the particle in a box (whether its 1D, 2D, 3D) why is n=0 disallowed? Surely we can apply the same logic as above but just with a different normalisation constant (root(1/2)) ?

Is it because of the uncertainty principle?
Reply 6
Original post by DonnieBrasco
Ah OK, but then with the particle in a box (whether its 1D, 2D, 3D) why is n=0 disallowed? Surely we can apply the same logic as above but just with a different normalisation constant (root(1/2)) ?

Is it because of the uncertainty principle?


No, it's because the solution for a particle in a 1D box is

ψn=2Lsin(nπxL)\psi_n = \displaystyle \sqrt{\frac{2}{L}}\sin\left( \frac{n\pi x}{L}\right)

so that ψ0=0\psi_0 = 0. This means that the probability of the particle being found somewhere in the box is zero when n=0, i.e. the particle does not exist.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by BJack
No, it's because the solution for a particle in a 1D box is

ψn=2Lsin(nπxL)\psi_n = \displaystyle \sqrt{\frac{2}{L}}\sin\left( \frac{n\pi x}{L}\right)

so that ψ0=0\psi_0 = 0. This means that the probability of the particle being found somewhere in the box is zero when n=0, i.e. the particle does not exist.


Original post by DonnieBrasco
Ah OK, but then with the particle in a box (whether its 1D, 2D, 3D) why is n=0 disallowed? Surely we can apply the same logic as above but just with a different normalisation constant (root(1/2)) ?

Is it because of the uncertainty principle?

You see why this is, right? If you sub in n=0n=0, you have sin(0)=0\sin (0) = 0, so ψ0=0\psi_0=0, i.e. no probability
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 8
Original post by Plato's Trousers
You see why this is, right? If you sub in n=0n=0, you have sin(0)=0\sin (0) = 0, so ψ0=0\psi_0=0, i.e. no probability


Yes I get this part...


Original post by BJack
No, it's because the solution for a particle in a 1D box is

ψn=2Lsin(nπxL)\psi_n = \displaystyle \sqrt{\frac{2}{L}}\sin\left( \frac{n\pi x}{L}\right)

so that ψ0=0\psi_0 = 0. This means that the probability of the particle being found somewhere in the box is zero when n=0, i.e. the particle does not exist.


... But I had stupidly forgotten that the solutions to the wavefunctions for a circle and for a box were different. We were taught the solutions to the particle on a circle as the wavefunction(theta) = Am.Cos(m.theta) and Am.Sin(m.theta) (i.e. not in exponential form) which makes it harder to see why m=0 is allowed. I was plugging it into the sin function and concluding that the wavefunction was then zero - which is not allowed.

Thanks for the help!
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 9
Original post by BJack
No, if you go through all the maths, you should get

ψ(θ)=12πeimθ\psi(\theta) = \displaystyle \sqrt{\frac{1}{2\pi}} e^{im\theta}

so that

ψ(0)=12π\psi(0) = \displaystyle \sqrt{\frac{1}{2\pi}}

And so the wavefn is non-zero. This won't change your answer, though, because the excitation you're looking at is now from the m=3 HSOMO to the m=4 LUMO.



Of course, the boundary condition is ψ(θ)=ψ(θ+2π)\psi(\theta) = \psi(\theta+2\pi), or we could define some wavefn such that it meets up at θ0 mod 2π\theta \equiv 0\ \mathrm{mod}\ 2\pi but not at any other values. :tongue:


Surely the HOMO is now m=2, or am I missing something?

And as for the boundary condition, most circles are only defined from 0 to 2pi! :wink:

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