Term Limit for Abortion
I am quite firmly on the left politically, and I identify with many women's rights causes and would consider myself to be a feminist.
However, I struggle to morally justify the 24 week term limit on abortion. Abortion is a cause celebre for many of my fellows on the left - that if you support a shorter term limit, you are right-wing and anti-women. However, I will always stand with the oppressed, and in this case I think the unborn child is oppressed.
Many of the arguments that people make sound like libertarian/right-wing points. "Abortion is a women's decision" - I disagree with this because I think that decisions should be collectively taken by society and the unborn child has no choice to be aborted. I find it morally unjustifiable for it to be acceptable to abort a 24 week old baby still in the womb, while if that same baby was out, killing them would be murder.
Would like to get thoughts on this.
However, I struggle to morally justify the 24 week term limit on abortion. Abortion is a cause celebre for many of my fellows on the left - that if you support a shorter term limit, you are right-wing and anti-women. However, I will always stand with the oppressed, and in this case I think the unborn child is oppressed.
Many of the arguments that people make sound like libertarian/right-wing points. "Abortion is a women's decision" - I disagree with this because I think that decisions should be collectively taken by society and the unborn child has no choice to be aborted. I find it morally unjustifiable for it to be acceptable to abort a 24 week old baby still in the womb, while if that same baby was out, killing them would be murder.
Would like to get thoughts on this.
Scroll to see replies
Original post by PAFCStan
I am quite firmly on the left politically, and I identify with many women's rights causes and would consider myself to be a feminist.
However, I struggle to morally justify the 24 week term limit on abortion. Abortion is a cause celebre for many of my fellows on the left - that if you support a shorter term limit, you are right-wing and anti-women. However, I will always stand with the oppressed, and in this case I think the unborn child is oppressed.
Many of the arguments that people make sound like libertarian/right-wing points. "Abortion is a women's decision" - I disagree with this because I think that decisions should be collectively taken by society and the unborn child has no choice to be aborted. I find it morally unjustifiable for it to be acceptable to abort a 24 week old baby still in the womb, while if that same baby was out, killing them would be murder.
Would like to get thoughts on this.
However, I struggle to morally justify the 24 week term limit on abortion. Abortion is a cause celebre for many of my fellows on the left - that if you support a shorter term limit, you are right-wing and anti-women. However, I will always stand with the oppressed, and in this case I think the unborn child is oppressed.
Many of the arguments that people make sound like libertarian/right-wing points. "Abortion is a women's decision" - I disagree with this because I think that decisions should be collectively taken by society and the unborn child has no choice to be aborted. I find it morally unjustifiable for it to be acceptable to abort a 24 week old baby still in the womb, while if that same baby was out, killing them would be murder.
Would like to get thoughts on this.
What makes it morally opposing - is it just a presence of oppression or more? In what way would there be a similarity of who the person is in the womb vs. outside?
(edited 8 years ago)
Agree with you there, 24 weeks is too extensive. If you're going to have any kind of consistency regarding this issue, you would want to ensure above all else that a fetus could not be aborted at any stage where it could potentially be viable. At 20-24 weeks fetuses do have a chance of viability and many have survived with medical assistance. The limit should be, at the absolute most, 20 weeks, if not even a little earlier. Since the vast majority of abortions happen well before this stage anyway, it wouldn't have much of a significant social impact either.
Feminists trying to frame this as a misogynist issue hurt their cause far more than anyone else.
Feminists trying to frame this as a misogynist issue hurt their cause far more than anyone else.
Babies don't get aborted at 24 weeks because they are unwanted, but because they are found in scans to have severe disabilities or cause a deadly risk to the mother. It is 24 weeks because that is when those scans are carried out.
There is no point carrying on with another 3 months of pregnancy to deliver a baby that won't survive on its own or with a quality of life so diminished it would be cruel to bring them into the world.
It's definitely not to give a woman 6 months to decide if she wants to keep the baby or not, get real.
There is no point carrying on with another 3 months of pregnancy to deliver a baby that won't survive on its own or with a quality of life so diminished it would be cruel to bring them into the world.
It's definitely not to give a woman 6 months to decide if she wants to keep the baby or not, get real.
Original post by PAFCStan
I am quite firmly on the left politically, and I identify with many women's rights causes and would consider myself to be a feminist.
However, I struggle to morally justify the 24 week term limit on abortion. Abortion is a cause celebre for many of my fellows on the left - that if you support a shorter term limit, you are right-wing and anti-women. However, I will always stand with the oppressed, and in this case I think the unborn child is oppressed.
Many of the arguments that people make sound like libertarian/right-wing points. "Abortion is a women's decision" - I disagree with this because I think that decisions should be collectively taken by society and the unborn child has no choice to be aborted. I find it morally unjustifiable for it to be acceptable to abort a 24 week old baby still in the womb, while if that same baby was out, killing them would be murder.
Would like to get thoughts on this.
However, I struggle to morally justify the 24 week term limit on abortion. Abortion is a cause celebre for many of my fellows on the left - that if you support a shorter term limit, you are right-wing and anti-women. However, I will always stand with the oppressed, and in this case I think the unborn child is oppressed.
Many of the arguments that people make sound like libertarian/right-wing points. "Abortion is a women's decision" - I disagree with this because I think that decisions should be collectively taken by society and the unborn child has no choice to be aborted. I find it morally unjustifiable for it to be acceptable to abort a 24 week old baby still in the womb, while if that same baby was out, killing them would be murder.
Would like to get thoughts on this.
Opinions on abortion have absolutely nothing to do with any definition of leftism, so make sure to remind people of that.
If you note that a 24 week old foetus is a body in its own right, rather than another one of its mother's limbs or appendages (since it is viable that it could survive without the mother at that stage) I think your post ceases to make much sense.
Of course society would prevent someone from killing a baby, because that baby can't protect itself. Of course that has nothing to do with the issue of bodily autonomy, as it's someone else's body the mother is destroying, not her own.
Of course society would prevent someone from killing a baby, because that baby can't protect itself. Of course that has nothing to do with the issue of bodily autonomy, as it's someone else's body the mother is destroying, not her own.
While I am all for abortions, I do agree that the 24 weeks limit may be too much. It is reasonable in the case of sudden health decline in the mother etc. since those things can't be predicted, but those cases already taken as exceptions to the limit anyway. In all other cases where the woman just wants to abort the pregnancy, she shouldn't need 24 weeks to do it.
The question is not about body autonomy, but whether the baby is considered a separate entity, or part of the mothers body.
I am of a similar mind. For me, the unborn child has a right to life as soon as it develops it's own nervous system. While there are many justification to have an abortion, I do not believe "the mother doesnt want a baby" is one of them.
Original post by PAFCStan
I am quite firmly on the left politically, and I identify with many women's rights causes and would consider myself to be a feminist.However, I struggle to morally justify the 24 week term limit on abortion. Abortion is a cause celebre for many of my fellows on the left - that if you support a shorter term limit, you are right-wing and anti-women. However, I will always stand with the oppressed, and in this case I think the unborn child is oppressed.
I am of a similar mind. For me, the unborn child has a right to life as soon as it develops it's own nervous system. While there are many justification to have an abortion, I do not believe "the mother doesnt want a baby" is one of them.
Except if the fetus is viable, it isn't the mother's body or her bodily autonomy any more, is it?
Original post by PAFCStan
However, I struggle to morally justify the 24 week term limit on abortion. Abortion is a cause celebre for many of my fellows on the left - that if you support a shorter term limit, you are right-wing and anti-women. However, I will always stand with the oppressed, and in this case I think the unborn child is oppressed.
Many of the arguments that people make sound like libertarian/right-wing points. "Abortion is a women's decision" - I disagree with this because I think that decisions should be collectively taken by society and the unborn child has no choice to be aborted. I find it morally unjustifiable for it to be acceptable to abort a 24 week old baby still in the womb, while if that same baby was out, killing them would be murder.
Would like to get thoughts on this.
Many of the arguments that people make sound like libertarian/right-wing points. "Abortion is a women's decision" - I disagree with this because I think that decisions should be collectively taken by society and the unborn child has no choice to be aborted. I find it morally unjustifiable for it to be acceptable to abort a 24 week old baby still in the womb, while if that same baby was out, killing them would be murder.
Would like to get thoughts on this.
The decision of the mother takes precedence in this case because the foetus is not self-aware, and cannot reason, and therefore has no interest in continuing to live.
Oppression is generally defined as prolonged cruel or unjust treatment. It's not, however, possible to inflict cruelty on a foetus by aborting it, because it is not sentient: it simply cannot object to being aborted. You say it doesn't have a choice in the matter, but that's not because it's being denied a choice: it's because it cannot choose.
In my view, 24 weeks is too early a limit: people should be able to have abortions at any stage of pregnancy.
(edited 8 years ago)
It's a terrible argument which uses kidnapping and forced organ donation as an analogy for pregnancy, ignoring that women willingly choose to have sex with full knowledge of the potential consequences. It could logically be used as a defense of abortion in cases of rape, but otherwise it fails at the first hurdle.
There are better arguments for permitting abortion (up to a point). OP's issue is with the term limit, which is based around viability and yet extends abortion to a point where fetuses have a chance of survival outside of the womb, which is inconsistent.
There are better arguments for permitting abortion (up to a point). OP's issue is with the term limit, which is based around viability and yet extends abortion to a point where fetuses have a chance of survival outside of the womb, which is inconsistent.
She gives no sound justification for it anywhere, I know it, you know it, it's an insultingly stupid analogy that has been repeatedly torn apart by scholars on both sides of the abortion debate. Forced organ donation is not analogous to voluntary intercourse and pregnancy, a random stranger is not analogous to one's own child, the withholding of support is not analogous to the direct act of killing, so on and so forth.
Feminists attempting to frame this whole debate as an issue of womens' rights, when it is rather an issue of the fetus and it's claim to personhood, is probably the most laughable and regrettable aspect of the pro-choice movement. This coming from someone who is by most definitions, pro-choice.
Feminists attempting to frame this whole debate as an issue of womens' rights, when it is rather an issue of the fetus and it's claim to personhood, is probably the most laughable and regrettable aspect of the pro-choice movement. This coming from someone who is by most definitions, pro-choice.
Original post by PAFCStan
I am quite firmly on the left politically, and I identify with many women's rights causes and would consider myself to be a feminist.
However, I struggle to morally justify the 24 week term limit on abortion. Abortion is a cause celebre for many of my fellows on the left - that if you support a shorter term limit, you are right-wing and anti-women. However, I will always stand with the oppressed, and in this case I think the unborn child is oppressed.
Many of the arguments that people make sound like libertarian/right-wing points. "Abortion is a women's decision" - I disagree with this because I think that decisions should be collectively taken by society and the unborn child has no choice to be aborted. I find it morally unjustifiable for it to be acceptable to abort a 24 week old baby still in the womb, while if that same baby was out, killing them would be murder.
Would like to get thoughts on this.
However, I struggle to morally justify the 24 week term limit on abortion. Abortion is a cause celebre for many of my fellows on the left - that if you support a shorter term limit, you are right-wing and anti-women. However, I will always stand with the oppressed, and in this case I think the unborn child is oppressed.
Many of the arguments that people make sound like libertarian/right-wing points. "Abortion is a women's decision" - I disagree with this because I think that decisions should be collectively taken by society and the unborn child has no choice to be aborted. I find it morally unjustifiable for it to be acceptable to abort a 24 week old baby still in the womb, while if that same baby was out, killing them would be murder.
Would like to get thoughts on this.
Women have no right to decide wether they should have an abortion, they should leave it to the men. How selfish to think that women actually have opinion.
I could never have an abortion. The thought of killing my own child is repellent to me, and I could not do it.
At 24 weeks, that baby could be born and survive. I cannot see the justification of killing a human life. At any stage of pregnancy, that is a potential human life. That could be a baby, and more likely would be if the woman continued with the pregnancy.
Posted from TSR Mobile
At 24 weeks, that baby could be born and survive. I cannot see the justification of killing a human life. At any stage of pregnancy, that is a potential human life. That could be a baby, and more likely would be if the woman continued with the pregnancy.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by VV Cephei A
She gives no sound justification for it anywhere, I know it, you know it, it's an insultingly stupid analogy that has been repeatedly torn apart by scholars on both sides of the abortion debate. Forced organ donation is not analogous to voluntary intercourse and pregnancy, a random stranger is not analogous to one's own child, the withholding of support is not analogous to the direct act of killing, so on and so forth.
Feminists attempting to frame this whole debate as an issue of womens' rights, when it is rather an issue of the fetus and it's claim to personhood, is probably the most laughable and regrettable aspect of the pro-choice movement. This coming from someone who is by most definitions, pro-choice.
Feminists attempting to frame this whole debate as an issue of womens' rights, when it is rather an issue of the fetus and it's claim to personhood, is probably the most laughable and regrettable aspect of the pro-choice movement. This coming from someone who is by most definitions, pro-choice.
No. Forced organ donation is analogous to forced pregnancy.
The fact that one chooses to have sex is irrelevant to the concept that both require the loss of bodily autonomy.
Original post by Katty3
I could never have an abortion. The thought of killing my own child is repellent to me, and I could not do it.
At 24 weeks, that baby could be born and survive. I cannot see the justification of killing a human life. At any stage of pregnancy, that is a potential human life. That could be a baby, and more likely would be if the woman continued with the pregnancy.
Posted from TSR Mobile
At 24 weeks, that baby could be born and survive. I cannot see the justification of killing a human life. At any stage of pregnancy, that is a potential human life. That could be a baby, and more likely would be if the woman continued with the pregnancy.
Posted from TSR Mobile
So you would ban abortion ?
Original post by PAFCStan
I am quite firmly on the left politically, and I identify with many women's rights causes and would consider myself to be a feminist.
However, I struggle to morally justify the 24 week term limit on abortion. Abortion is a cause celebre for many of my fellows on the left - that if you support a shorter term limit, you are right-wing and anti-women. However, I will always stand with the oppressed, and in this case I think the unborn child is oppressed.
Many of the arguments that people make sound like libertarian/right-wing points. "Abortion is a women's decision" - I disagree with this because I think that decisions should be collectively taken by society and the unborn child has no choice to be aborted. I find it morally unjustifiable for it to be acceptable to abort a 24 week old baby still in the womb, while if that same baby was out, killing them would be murder.
Would like to get thoughts on this.
However, I struggle to morally justify the 24 week term limit on abortion. Abortion is a cause celebre for many of my fellows on the left - that if you support a shorter term limit, you are right-wing and anti-women. However, I will always stand with the oppressed, and in this case I think the unborn child is oppressed.
Many of the arguments that people make sound like libertarian/right-wing points. "Abortion is a women's decision" - I disagree with this because I think that decisions should be collectively taken by society and the unborn child has no choice to be aborted. I find it morally unjustifiable for it to be acceptable to abort a 24 week old baby still in the womb, while if that same baby was out, killing them would be murder.
Would like to get thoughts on this.
I think not bringing unwanted humans into unstable, dangerous and unloving homes is whats best for society. I find Most of the people who think like this would be the first to turn their back on a child that crackhead mummy n daddy cannot care for or support or love.
Original post by DorianGrayism
No. Forced organ donation is analogous to forced pregnancy.
The fact that one chooses to have sex is irrelevant to the concept that both require the loss of bodily autonomy.
The fact that one chooses to have sex is irrelevant to the concept that both require the loss of bodily autonomy.
Of course it is relevant. The whole point is that one is completely forced against one's will, whilst the other is a known consequence of a voluntary action. A far better analogy would be if the woman were to somehow intentionally give the violinist a fatal kidney impairment, then connect herself up to the violinist to temporarily prolong his life, before finally killing him by stabbing him in the neck, (because remember, abortion isn't just "unplugging" the fetus, it is active killing). Those are just a couple in a long list of truly atrocious analogies made throughout this paper.
This isn't an issue of women's rights and never has been, despite what a legion of vapid feminists have tried to convince everyone of. Nowhere in the world are abortion laws made based primarily on the concept womens' autonomy - they are made based on the state of the fetus as a person with rights. Otherwise, we'd be permitting abortion right up until the moment of birth, which is ludicrous. The debate worth having is when the fetus becomes a human being and accrues said rights, which is what the OP is trying to discuss.
Original post by VV Cephei A
Of course it is relevant. The whole point is that one is completely forced against one's will, whilst the other is a known consequence of a voluntary action. .
Both are against her will.
The fact she had sex doesn't change that .
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by DorianGrayism
Both are against her will.
Sorry pal, that's not how analogies work.
Quick Reply
Related discussions
- Thoughts on Abortion?
- getting pregnant
- next step with him
- Diagnostic radiography work experience post-COVID
- AQA A-level Religious Studies 1 (7062/1) 12 Jun & 2 (7062/2A-2E) 19 Jun [Exam Chat]
- | snake park +971525077671 | abortion pills for sale in fujairah
- ( power park +971525077671 ) abortion pills for sale in dubai, cytotec available in d
- +971525077671 | abortion pills for sale in isa town | cytotec available
- | snake park +971525077671 | abortion pills for sale in qatar
- | snake park +971525077671 | abortion pills for sale in al ain
- | snake park +971525077671 | abortion pills for sale in bur dubai,
- | snake park +971525077671 | abortion pills for sale in doha
- ( senaoane +971525077671 ) abortion pills for sale in oman | cytotec available
- Senaoane +971525077671 | abortion pills for sale in isa town | cytotec available
- | snake park +971525077671 | abortion pills for sale in deira
- +971525077671 | abortion pills for sale in manama | cytotec available
- | snake park +971525077671 | abortion pills for sale in sharjah
- Messed up in terms of timing + info in A-Level History AQA, how will this affect me?
- Pongola Ulundi Vryheid +27845643968 DR.AMANDA ABORTION CLINIC
- Zion City Moria Thabazimbi Thohoyandou +27845643968 DR.AMANDA ABORTION CLINIC
Latest
Trending
Last reply 5 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 5 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 5 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?Trending
Last reply 5 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 5 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 5 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?
