Is the world better off with or without Islam?

You're totally misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not using my reasoning as an excuse. I'm saying the same amount of good and evil exists within Islam as there is outside of it and that this has always been the case. You can abolish it if you want [although I doubt you have a masterplan, 'thunder chunky']. I wouldn't particularly care. But you'd be disappointed to find that all the terrorists wouldn't suddenly become good, virtuous people and terrorism and violence would continue regardless.

Those many Muslims who are good people would also continue to be good because, despite what they may think, they are good people because they have it deep inside them and have been brought up by good people. It isn't their 'god' which makes them good.

this is just my opinion as an atheist although I realise it could anger people on both sides of the argument.

Well, I actually explored this issue in a paper I wrote about human rights violations in Malaysia compared with Singapore and Thailand which had similar traditional cultures. Singapore had moved towards a Western culture, Thailand had maintained a more traditional culture, and Malaysia had adopted Islam in pursuit of progress. I found that Malaysia has more human rights issues primarily due to the Islamic courts and religious police. The secular courts and police were more willing to work with human rights advocates than were the Islamic bodies, but unfortunately a large proportion of the population is Muslim and thus subject to the Islamic bodies, while the rights of non-Muslims are highly restricted. Chinese people are treated worse in Malaysia and kept out of certain jobs, for instance.

These cultures all had a similar starting point, and Islamic Malaysia was clearly lagging behind Singapore and Thailand in both human rights and economic development, and many of the policies and laws related to these deficiencies do in fact come from political Islam.

I think I can say with certainty that the world would be better off without political Islam having any power to influence laws or the structure of government. In fact, the conclusion I reached in my paper was that restoring human rights in Malaysia would require the disestablishment of Sharia courts, better status for non-Muslim citizens, and a return to secular bodies with laws that apply to people of all faiths, and that this could possibly be achieved peacefully through the consistent and unified application of sanctions and espionage by other nations over time. My teacher was impressed with the paper and gave me the highest grade possible.

This is not to say that Islam cannot be practiced in a manner that is apolitical and thus causes less harm, but on the topic of political Islam in particular, I must agree with what Winston Churchill once said, that "no stronger retrograde force exists in the world."

Great project on 1/49 muslim countries around the world. that is a very evidential conclusion made by studying one muslim country.

Secondly, one thing that is common with people who do not understand islam, is that most countries, if not all muslim countries, do not practise islamic politics entirely, and most transgress beyond the limit prescribed by islam itself, which is forbidden by islam.

Lets take the source of islam, saudi. Most of the actions they do are not in true accordance with islam, even their attire is not the actual prescribed Sunnah, that is, the dressed worn by the Prophet. Most muslim countries ban muslim women from driving which is not in Islam. One of my great teachers identified to me over 50 actions within and out of their political system which is not in correspondence with islam.

So i like your project but it has no basis to even come close to your conclusion

I did look at the laws of several other Islamic countries, and there were similar problems in each of them. Even the few with strong secular traditions like Turkey and Iran have major issues with these being constantly attacked and eroded by political Islamic forces.

Issues like women's rights and LGBT rights alone would disqualify several Islamic countries from having an acceptable human rights record. And it's no secret that Islamic countries tend to have terrible GDPs. The only two that break the top 20 are Turkey and Indonesia. It's not hard to argue that Islamic culture and politics are harmful to the well-being of Muslims.

Same thing same thing you are purely talking about "culture" not Islam itself. Islam does not prevent women from working etc in fact one of the most highest regarded scholars of Islam was Hadhrat Aisha who had contributed a substantial amount to Islamic education, preserving over 2000 saying of the prophet by memory, Islam loves women to engage in work but culture like pakistani culture where a lot of women are just made to stay at home uneducated can and has affected your mentality, but please understand Islam, and culture.

Well, outside of existing Islamic countries and the attitudes of their people, I have little else to go on as far as establishing the impact of Islam on a society.

I can't really imagine what Islamic theocracy would be like if it were free of all influences of Arab culture and somehow theologically purified and distilled into a perfect/ideal implementation. It's like Communism... everyone says that if Marx's theories were implemented correctly, it would work, but in practice, every functioning example that exists in the modern world makes it look like a bad idea (unless you count Chinese Communism, which is very different from other forms).

You mean the Caliphs that lived between 500 and 600 AD? Umm... okay, I'll concede that Islam was an appropriate and even progressive religion for Arabia circa 600 AD. Admittedly, I don't know enough about Zorastrianism or Arab polytheism to say whether Islam is better or worse than the previous faiths. I had the modern world in mind.

If I were to suggest that Britain could become today what it was in the 1920s, I'm pretty sure most people would say the world had changed too much for that to be relevant as a model. So a political structure derived from a 5th century Caliphate is just not on.

Its bewildering how someone who has absolutely no theoretical cognizance of Islamic Politics could predict the outcome of something they dont even know. You have to study a political system to even have an idea of how successful it will be. Now ive explained how disparate modern "Islamic" countries are to the true primary Quranic politics, as one aspect of my phD was exactly on studying such a correspondence. So this discussion could become incessant with unsupported theories.....or with you conceding a lack of knowledge to make a conclusion like that, i mean studying just over 2% of muslim countries just isnt adequate.

I will make no such concession. Of course women driving is not specifically in the Quran, because cars didn't exist. But there are plenty of examples of things women can't do in the Quran that would suggest that a policy not allowing women to drive accords with Islamic principles.

Like ive said you have not studied the Quran or perhaps even read it yet you are saying that women should, via "true" islamic law, not be allowed.

I am a scholar and the two major Islamic Institutions in the world that accounts for most of the Muslim population, that is , the sunni, which are Dar uloom deoband and South African Darul iftaa have given the fatwa ( Islamic jurisprudence from deliberation) that it is permissible for women to drive as long laws of hijab are observed.


And you say that women can "work," but you don't say what kind of work they should be allowed to do. Perhaps you're restricting them to certain occupations. You're using pointed examples of things Islamic countries do that aren't specifically mentioned in the Quran as evidence that they're not legitimate examples of an Islamic political structure. If I apply that same standard to Communist countries, none of them have followed Marxist principles perfectly either. So there have been no Communist states by that way of looking at things.

Exactly, if my teacher could identify over 50 inconsistencies then that would be valid in my opinion to say that even the most "islamic" country cannot be deemed genuinely so. That would hence mean we cannot make an evidential conclusion based on nothing concrete.


My point was that an Islamic political system working well in 7th century Arabia is not evidence that implementing the same sort of political system today would work well. I'm suggesting that the world has changed so much since the 7th century that, although Islam worked well for that time, it would not be appropriate as a political system today, considering modern economic demands, technology, and human rights issues that weren't considered back then. The same principles may well not be applicable.

In fact, as far as innovation is concerned, Islam has played a huge role in inventions such as

Algebra
The first hospital was made under the command of a muslim WOMAN
The first magnifying Glass
Innovations in surgical instruments etc..

1) Algebra already existed
2) Greeks
3) Greeks
4) 'Innovations' so better tools but nothing more

and Islam had no role in any of these.

You need a better history book

I’m doing just fine as a Muslim so who is anyone to say that the world is better off without Muslims? I don’t go around with a “don’t panic I’m a Muslim@ shirt and cause trouble. I live a normal life. I don’t get why people mix Islam with someone’s personality. Or how they were brought up. Or how they speak a certain way. I bet u that the people against Muslims on this chat would have noooo idea I was a Muslim. I don’t wear hijab and I don’t have an “accent”. But I dress modestly and have good manners.
So y should u be bothered by me if I wore a hijab and “looked muslim”? Seems a bit sus to me

It was brought up by bumping a 2 year old thread

Are we better off without the religion of Islam existing or has it had an overall benefit in society?

I’m doing just fine as a Muslim so who is anyone to say that the world is better off without Muslims? I don’t go around with a “don’t panic I’m a Muslim@ shirt and cause trouble. I live a normal life. I don’t get why people mix Islam with someone’s personality. Or how they were brought up. Or how they speak a certain way. I bet u that the people against Muslims on this chat would have noooo idea I was a Muslim. I don’t wear hijab and I don’t have an “accent”. But I dress modestly and have good manners.
So y should u be bothered by me if I wore a hijab and “looked muslim”? Seems a bit sus to me

Are we better off without the religion of Islam existing or has it had an overall benefit in society?

They just tend to take people with them usually.