The 'gender pay gap' is a myth
I originally posted this in response to another thread but after swaggering away from my laptop in a vaunting fashion after posting it, I decided it deserved to be posted on its own. (I have detailed it a bit more to be fair.)
Thats down to the different choices that women make, such as taking time out to have a child, the tendancy to take degrees and enter into professions with lower pay (1), working less hours on average, tendency to work part-time, taking more holidays and more time off sick than men, etc.
Women prefer people-oriented professions whilst men prefer technical jobs. But I hear you scream - "that this is due to socialisation" but study after study (2) performed by leading developmental psychologists show that even new born babies exibit these differencies.
They test this by recording how long babies look at a particular object, and males look at mechanical objects such as mobile phones, calculators etc. longer than females look at faces.
Women are also significantly less likely to take a job involving a high degree of risk to life, as indicated by the statistic that males account for 93% of all workplace fatalities.
Differences in personality between genders is also a factor: women tend to be more agreeable than men on average and so are less likely to effectively ask for a pay rise, and more likely to accept a lower one.
It's true that if you take a univaried analysis of median income then there is a difference between the genders, but if you take a multivaried analysis (3) like the ONS has done and several femenist Harvard economists (4), they find that when you take these differences into account that the gap shinks to the point of vanashing. In fact, they actually show that women working part-time earn more than men working part-time and that between the ages of 20-29 women earn more.
Even the Feminist organisation 'American Association of University Women' have concluded (if you look beyond the verbal sleights of hand) that when you take into account all of these different factors, the wage gap shrinks to around 6.5 US Cents.
Probably the most exhaustive of the studies (5) was commissioned by the department of Labour under Obama and when they examened more than 50 peer-review papers they also found that when you take these factors into account, the gap reduces to 4-8 US Cents.
As Christina Hoff Sommers says, "Want to close the wage gap? Change your degree from feminist dance therapy to electrical engineering."
(1) https://www.thedailybeast.com/no-women-dont-make-less-money-than-men
(2) https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_Female_Brain
(3) https://visual.ons.gov.uk/the-gender...at-affects-it/
(4) http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/gol...te_sectors.pdf
(5) http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
Thats down to the different choices that women make, such as taking time out to have a child, the tendancy to take degrees and enter into professions with lower pay (1), working less hours on average, tendency to work part-time, taking more holidays and more time off sick than men, etc.
Women prefer people-oriented professions whilst men prefer technical jobs. But I hear you scream - "that this is due to socialisation" but study after study (2) performed by leading developmental psychologists show that even new born babies exibit these differencies.
They test this by recording how long babies look at a particular object, and males look at mechanical objects such as mobile phones, calculators etc. longer than females look at faces.
Women are also significantly less likely to take a job involving a high degree of risk to life, as indicated by the statistic that males account for 93% of all workplace fatalities.
Differences in personality between genders is also a factor: women tend to be more agreeable than men on average and so are less likely to effectively ask for a pay rise, and more likely to accept a lower one.
It's true that if you take a univaried analysis of median income then there is a difference between the genders, but if you take a multivaried analysis (3) like the ONS has done and several femenist Harvard economists (4), they find that when you take these differences into account that the gap shinks to the point of vanashing. In fact, they actually show that women working part-time earn more than men working part-time and that between the ages of 20-29 women earn more.
Even the Feminist organisation 'American Association of University Women' have concluded (if you look beyond the verbal sleights of hand) that when you take into account all of these different factors, the wage gap shrinks to around 6.5 US Cents.
Probably the most exhaustive of the studies (5) was commissioned by the department of Labour under Obama and when they examened more than 50 peer-review papers they also found that when you take these factors into account, the gap reduces to 4-8 US Cents.
As Christina Hoff Sommers says, "Want to close the wage gap? Change your degree from feminist dance therapy to electrical engineering."
(1) https://www.thedailybeast.com/no-women-dont-make-less-money-than-men
(2) https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_Female_Brain
(3) https://visual.ons.gov.uk/the-gender...at-affects-it/
(4) http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/gol...te_sectors.pdf
(5) http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
(edited 6 years ago)
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Believe me, I'm an egalitarian, I take both sides.
But according to this article: https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/Viewing/employer-details?view=hourly-rate&id=cnJaFJc43bsWAEE_n9Pb-Q%21%21
Tesco Stores Ltd is one of many where women are paid less hour for hour.
If that isn't enough, take a look at Greggs: https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/Viewing/employer-details?view=hourly-rate&id=cnJaFJc43bsWAEE_n9Pb-Q%21%21
There is still problems with women getting paid less.
But according to this article: https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/Viewing/employer-details?view=hourly-rate&id=cnJaFJc43bsWAEE_n9Pb-Q%21%21
Tesco Stores Ltd is one of many where women are paid less hour for hour.
If that isn't enough, take a look at Greggs: https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/Viewing/employer-details?view=hourly-rate&id=cnJaFJc43bsWAEE_n9Pb-Q%21%21
There is still problems with women getting paid less.
Original post by doubleGs
Believe me, I'm an egalitarian, I take both sides.
But according to this article: https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/Viewing/employer-details?view=hourly-rate&id=cnJaFJc43bsWAEE_n9Pb-Q%21%21
Tesco Stores Ltd is one of many where women are paid less hour for hour.
If that isn't enough, take a look at Greggs: https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/Viewing/employer-details?view=hourly-rate&id=cnJaFJc43bsWAEE_n9Pb-Q%21%21
There is still problems with women getting paid less.
But according to this article: https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/Viewing/employer-details?view=hourly-rate&id=cnJaFJc43bsWAEE_n9Pb-Q%21%21
Tesco Stores Ltd is one of many where women are paid less hour for hour.
If that isn't enough, take a look at Greggs: https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/Viewing/employer-details?view=hourly-rate&id=cnJaFJc43bsWAEE_n9Pb-Q%21%21
There is still problems with women getting paid less.
With regards to the Tesco one, it's shop floor staff that are saying they should be paid the same as the people (guys I guess) who work in the back and in the distrubution centres.
I would say these are not 'equal work' therefore shouldn't be subject to 'equal pay', and that there is more risk associated with jobs in the distro centers than on the floor. They wear hard hats in the distro centers, I don't see people walking around the shop floor with hard hats on..
Original post by doubleGs
Believe me, I'm an egalitarian, I take both sides.
But according to this article: https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/Viewing/employer-details?view=hourly-rate&id=cnJaFJc43bsWAEE_n9Pb-Q%21%21
Tesco Stores Ltd is one of many where women are paid less hour for hour.
If that isn't enough, take a look at Greggs: https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/Viewing/employer-details?view=hourly-rate&id=cnJaFJc43bsWAEE_n9Pb-Q%21%21
There is still problems with women getting paid less.
But according to this article: https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/Viewing/employer-details?view=hourly-rate&id=cnJaFJc43bsWAEE_n9Pb-Q%21%21
Tesco Stores Ltd is one of many where women are paid less hour for hour.
If that isn't enough, take a look at Greggs: https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/Viewing/employer-details?view=hourly-rate&id=cnJaFJc43bsWAEE_n9Pb-Q%21%21
There is still problems with women getting paid less.
How was the data sorted? Was it controlled for experience? At entry-level there's a fixed hourly salary for everyone. After that it could be negotiated, but women who take time out to have children and such will justifiably be paid less.
Original post by robbiecee2
With regards to the Tesco one, it's shop floor staff that are saying they should be paid the same as the people (guys I guess) who work in the back and in the distrubution centres.
I would say these are not 'equal work' therefore shouldn't be subject to 'equal pay', and that there is more risk associated with jobs in the distro centers than on the floor. They wear hard hats in the distro centers, I don't see people walking around the shop floor with hard hats on..
I would say these are not 'equal work' therefore shouldn't be subject to 'equal pay', and that there is more risk associated with jobs in the distro centers than on the floor. They wear hard hats in the distro centers, I don't see people walking around the shop floor with hard hats on..
Yes, very few studies actually control for every factor. On closer examination (e..g women with the exact same experience and the exact same job scope as men) the pay gap disappears.
Not saying that it's completely non-existent; there's still some evidence showing that women don't negotiate as hard when it comes to pay, etc. But it's not as widespread as studies claim. Women don't get paid less solely because of their gender.
Original post by robbiecee2
I originally posted this in response to another thread but after swaggering away from my laptop in a vaunting fashion after posting it, I decided it deserved to be posted on its own. (I have detailed it a bit more to be fair.)
Thats down to the different choices that women make, such as taking time out to have a child, the tendancy to take degrees and enter into professions with lower pay (1), working less hours on average, tendency to work part-time, taking more holidays and more time off sick than men, etc.
Women prefer people-oriented professions whilst men prefer technical jobs. But I hear you scream - "that this is due to socialisation" but study after study (2) performed by leading developmental psychologists show that even new born babies exibit these differencies.
They test this by recording how long babies look at a particular object, and males look at mechanical objects such as mobile phones, calculators etc. longer than females look at faces.
Women are also significantly less likely to take a job involving a high degree of risk to life, as indicated by the statistic that males account for 93% of all workplace fatalities.
Differences in personality between genders is also a factor: women tend to be more agreeable than men on average and so are less likely to effectively ask for a pay rise, and more likely to accept a lower one.
It's true that if you take a univaried analysis of median income then there is a difference between the genders, but if you take a multivaried analysis (3) like the ONS has done and several femenist Harvard economists (4), they find that when you take these differences into account that the gap shinks to the point of vanashing. In fact, they actually show that women working part-time earn more than men working part-time and that between the ages of 20-29 women earn more.
Even the Feminist organisation 'American Association of University Women' have concluded (if you look beyond the verbal sleights of hand) that when you take into account all of these different factors, the wage gap shrinks to around 6.5 US Cents.
Probably the most exhaustive of the studies (5) was commitioned by the department of Labour under Obama and when they examened more than 50 peer-review papers they also found that when you take these factors into account, the gap reduces to 4-8 US Cents.
As Christina Hoff Sommers says, "Want to close the wage gap? Change your degree from feninist dance therapy to electrical engineering."
(1) https://www.thedailybeast.com/no-women-dont-make-less-money-than-men
(2) https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_Female_Brain
(3) https://visual.ons.gov.uk/the-gender...at-affects-it/
(4) http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/gol...te_sectors.pdf
(5) http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
Thats down to the different choices that women make, such as taking time out to have a child, the tendancy to take degrees and enter into professions with lower pay (1), working less hours on average, tendency to work part-time, taking more holidays and more time off sick than men, etc.
Women prefer people-oriented professions whilst men prefer technical jobs. But I hear you scream - "that this is due to socialisation" but study after study (2) performed by leading developmental psychologists show that even new born babies exibit these differencies.
They test this by recording how long babies look at a particular object, and males look at mechanical objects such as mobile phones, calculators etc. longer than females look at faces.
Women are also significantly less likely to take a job involving a high degree of risk to life, as indicated by the statistic that males account for 93% of all workplace fatalities.
Differences in personality between genders is also a factor: women tend to be more agreeable than men on average and so are less likely to effectively ask for a pay rise, and more likely to accept a lower one.
It's true that if you take a univaried analysis of median income then there is a difference between the genders, but if you take a multivaried analysis (3) like the ONS has done and several femenist Harvard economists (4), they find that when you take these differences into account that the gap shinks to the point of vanashing. In fact, they actually show that women working part-time earn more than men working part-time and that between the ages of 20-29 women earn more.
Even the Feminist organisation 'American Association of University Women' have concluded (if you look beyond the verbal sleights of hand) that when you take into account all of these different factors, the wage gap shrinks to around 6.5 US Cents.
Probably the most exhaustive of the studies (5) was commitioned by the department of Labour under Obama and when they examened more than 50 peer-review papers they also found that when you take these factors into account, the gap reduces to 4-8 US Cents.
As Christina Hoff Sommers says, "Want to close the wage gap? Change your degree from feninist dance therapy to electrical engineering."
(1) https://www.thedailybeast.com/no-women-dont-make-less-money-than-men
(2) https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_Female_Brain
(3) https://visual.ons.gov.uk/the-gender...at-affects-it/
(4) http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/gol...te_sectors.pdf
(5) http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
It's not a myth "Goldman Sachs reveals gender pay gap" however it's not as common as people make out.
Original post by Ninja Squirrel
It's not a myth "Goldman Sachs reveals gender pay gap" however it's not as common as people make out.
The ‘myth’ part is a bit provocative and I accept a gap exists, it’s just the reasons why it exists isn’t due to the ‘patriarchy’ or discrimination against women, but can be explained due to the different choices women make and general personality differences between men and women.
And these reasons are hardly ever reported by MSM who want to make out as though females are oppressed and males are oppressors.
jordan peterson covered this lol
Original post by robbiecee2
The ‘myth’ part is a bit provocative and I accept a gap exists, it’s just the reasons why it exists isn’t due to the ‘patriarchy’ or discrimination against women, but can be explained due to the different choices women make and general personality differences between men and women.
And these reasons are hardly ever reported by MSM who want to make out as though females are oppressed and males are oppressors.
And these reasons are hardly ever reported by MSM who want to make out as though females are oppressed and males are oppressors.
Choices are determined by environment. Environmental influences include social norms, roles and expectations.
Our social environment explains a far greater proportion of the wage gap than biological differences.
Work it out. 2+2=?
This battle has been lost.
We are not at a place in Western civilisation right now where this kind of debate can take place. No matter what you present, too many people with loud voices are going to stifle and try and destroy the debate.
If you believe that there is no gender pay gap - the best thing to do right now is nothing. Let the market do its work. There is no real downside to just disagreeing, but accepting that people will say there is discrimination.
Think about it - what are the long term consequences of (for example) Tesco saying "ok you see this pay gap - what do you want to do about it?" Checkout workers get paid the same as warehouse staff. Is that really the worst thing in the world? If after those adjustments, there is still a "pay gap" - how does that get addressed? They will not be able to start paying women more for equal work - so the "gap" will have to be understood as a what it is - a function of the reality of working and living patterns.
We are not at a place in Western civilisation right now where this kind of debate can take place. No matter what you present, too many people with loud voices are going to stifle and try and destroy the debate.
If you believe that there is no gender pay gap - the best thing to do right now is nothing. Let the market do its work. There is no real downside to just disagreeing, but accepting that people will say there is discrimination.
Think about it - what are the long term consequences of (for example) Tesco saying "ok you see this pay gap - what do you want to do about it?" Checkout workers get paid the same as warehouse staff. Is that really the worst thing in the world? If after those adjustments, there is still a "pay gap" - how does that get addressed? They will not be able to start paying women more for equal work - so the "gap" will have to be understood as a what it is - a function of the reality of working and living patterns.
Original post by Angry Bird
jordan peterson covered this lol
Jordan Peterson is a good public speaker, and that is why he can get away with talking such pseudo-intellectual rubbish that every other clinical and academic psychologist would curl their toes over.
Pay differential based on gender has been illegal in most, if not all, modern, democratic, 'western'countries for half a century.
If, in a nomally free-market capalist system it was legal to pay women less, for the same work as a man...
WHAT BUISNESS WOULD EVER EMPLOY MEN???...
f'king radfem retards /smdh
If, in a nomally free-market capalist system it was legal to pay women less, for the same work as a man...
WHAT BUISNESS WOULD EVER EMPLOY MEN???...
f'king radfem retards /smdh
It’s there but just steadily decreasing. Your reasonings are correct nevertheless
Original post by Trinculo
This battle has been lost.
We are not at a place in Western civilisation right now where this kind of debate can take place. No matter what you present, too many people with loud voices are going to stifle and try and destroy the debate.
If you believe that there is no gender pay gap - the best thing to do right now is nothing. Let the market do its work. There is no real downside to just disagreeing, but accepting that people will say there is discrimination.
Think about it - what are the long term consequences of (for example) Tesco saying "ok you see this pay gap - what do you want to do about it?" Checkout workers get paid the same as warehouse staff. Is that really the worst thing in the world? If after those adjustments, there is still a "pay gap" - how does that get addressed? They will not be able to start paying women more for equal work - so the "gap" will have to be understood as a what it is - a function of the reality of working and living patterns.
We are not at a place in Western civilisation right now where this kind of debate can take place. No matter what you present, too many people with loud voices are going to stifle and try and destroy the debate.
If you believe that there is no gender pay gap - the best thing to do right now is nothing. Let the market do its work. There is no real downside to just disagreeing, but accepting that people will say there is discrimination.
Think about it - what are the long term consequences of (for example) Tesco saying "ok you see this pay gap - what do you want to do about it?" Checkout workers get paid the same as warehouse staff. Is that really the worst thing in the world? If after those adjustments, there is still a "pay gap" - how does that get addressed? They will not be able to start paying women more for equal work - so the "gap" will have to be understood as a what it is - a function of the reality of working and living patterns.
It’s not an issue of men vs women, it’s that jobs that are harder/riskier etc should be worth more than less demanding jobs. Doesn’t matter if it’s a man or a women in it. It just so happens that more women take the less demanding job, and there’s nothing wrong with that - what mother would want to work a 70hr work week as a CEO? Women prefer a work/life balance.
Original post by Ninja Squirrel
It's not a myth "Goldman Sachs reveals gender pay gap" however it's not as common as people make out.
Our gender pay gap, a comparison of the average pay across all men at the firm compared with the average pay of all women at the firm, reflects our current reality that there are more men than women in senior positions in our organization.
So the gap is in seniority, not pay for equal work.
Original post by robbiecee2
Women prefer a work/life balance.
And men prefer to sacrifice their home life for work?
Surely promoting improved work life balance for ALL employees is something to be celebrated.
Original post by PQ
And men prefer to sacrifice their home life for work?
That certainly seems to be the majority case, yes.
Original post by PQ
And men prefer to sacrifice their home life for work?
Surely promoting improved work life balance for ALL employees is something to be celebrated.
Surely promoting improved work life balance for ALL employees is something to be celebrated.
There are biological, hormonal, psychometric differences between the sexes. Men, on average, are the trailblazers, the risk takers, the innovators. Women, on average, are more risk overse. Men thrive, in the majority of cases, when faced with the challenge of heavy competition.
Men are willing and capable of putting in 80+hr work weeks, being single minded dedicated to a task, it's how men are 'hard-wired'. Woman pacifically subordinate to the collective.
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