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an Siarach
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#61
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#61
(Original post by bratcat)
And frequently it is the partner who finds it inconvenient. But the focus is always on the mother.
Maybe so but it is the mother who has the choice so rightly the focus is on her.
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an Siarach
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#62
(Original post by bratcat)
How about a lifetime's inconvenience to a reluctant father on the run from the CSA.? Or don't men have anything to do with this process?
Who should be responsible for 'taking precautions' anyway ?
Look, men dont get pregnant and women do. Get over it. Well if i was at risk of pregnancy from sex i wouldnt trust any bloody man to make sure i didnt get into a situation i did not want so of course the responsibility lies upon the woman.
(Original post by bratcat)
If in doubt, blame a feminist, huh?
Doubt?
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RieLouise
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#63
(Original post by lessthanthree)
yes, yes I do
Thank you. Problem solved then

(Original post by an Siarach)
Look, men dont get pregnant and women do.
Really? Gee, I'm glad one of us was paying attention in biology class.

Get over it.
What do I need to 'get over'? I've already stated my views on promiscuity. It's not for me. What others do is up to them. I fail to see why women should be expected to be 'morally superior' to men.

Well if i was at risk of pregnancy from sex i wouldnt trust any bloody man to make sure i didnt get into a situation i did not want so of course the responsibility lies upon the woman.
That's actually quite insulting...to men. You're seriously telling me that men are incapable of popping a pill once a day. Let me reverse that statement: Well, if I were at the risk of making a woman pregnant I wouldn't trust any woman to make sure I didn't get into a situation I did not want.

Yes, it's a biological fact that 'women get pregnant'. It is also a biological fact that it is possible for a man to father hundreds of children in his lifetime, so is it too much to ask that they take responsiblity for their own hyperfertility? Are you suggesting that men are incapable of doing this? Maybe you should dress up as Batman, ascend Buckingham Palace and declare 'Families Don't Need Fathers'.

Doubt?
Why doesn't that response surprise me?
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Lillith Grimore
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#64
I would always say at the end of the day it's my body and my choice. Also, if it ever happened to me, it would also be my guilt. *some* people here don't seem to be considering that for many women, abortion really isn't an easy option - it can be completely heart-wrenching, life-shattering almost and every day that person will have to live with their descision. So sometimes I think that pro-life campaigners, whilst they make many excellent points, are insensitive. It's a descision everyone has to make for themselves - I also think that if you don't agree with abortion, you don't have to have one, but you shouldn't deny other people. Not if you want to live in a democracy. That we still allow woman the right to choose (upto a certain point) is one of the few indicators our family legal system still works...
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frost105
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(Original post by Lillith Grimore)
I would always say at the end of the day it's my body and my choice. Also, if it ever happened to me, it would also be my guilt. *some* people here don't seem to be considering that for many women, abortion really isn't an easy option - it can be completely heart-wrenching, life-shattering almost and every day that person will have to live with their descision. So sometimes I think that pro-life campaigners, whilst they make many excellent points, are insensitive. It's a descision everyone has to make for themselves - I also think that if you don't agree with abortion, you don't have to have one, but you shouldn't deny other people. Not if you want to live in a democracy. That we still allow woman the right to choose (upto a certain point) is one of the few indicators our family legal system still works...
I totally agree with you.

Was talking to boyf the other day about this and I said that if I were preganant now it would be a disaster and would feel my life was over. I would most likely have an abortion though I would have to live with the consequences of those actions for the rest of my life. I dont think its ever an easy decision and probably the one thing you'll always reflect on.
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Howard
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(Original post by lessthanthree)
OOokay, I'm in a mood for some debating about now.

-

Personally? If I ever got pregnant [and trust me, I do my utmost to prevent it via the double dutch method] when I wasn't ready to have a baby, my world would fall apart if I were denied the right to decide what I do with my body, and what I carry in my uterus.

Before I started having sex, I discussed the consequences of sex with my boyfriend [as you should do, really. If you can't talk about it, don't have it, k kids?] Fortunately, when I asked him "if I got pregnant, what would you have me do?" and he said "I'd like you to abort it"

Thank goodness I thought. I also told him that I was glad he's said that, but even if he'd been against abortion, I'd have told him there was no way I was to keep a baby. No way. No matter what he said. Some of you may deem that selfish, in that it would be his baby too...but as far as I'm concerned, nothing sails in my vessel if I don't want it to.

-

If abortion were to be outlawed except in exceptional circumstances, I'd get it under the mental health considerations. Having a baby when I'm not prepared would destroy me. I would refuse to have it, on the grounds that I would probably try to throw myself down the stairs anyway. [Yes, it's a personal thing. It's horrible to think it to some of you pro-lifers, but do you know what? I don't care] I know many women regret having abortions, and that's always a big boon to you pro-lifers, but unfortunately, you don't know what state the woman would have been in if she'd kept the baby. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. A wonderful thing that we don't really get until it's too late, and then bucks are passed and the blame rested on someone else.

-

The choice to abort should always lie with the woman. It makes me positively boil when I hear tale of girls forced into full term by pushy parents in restrictive cultures, or a partner who threatens to leave. It's disgusting blackmail. I get the feeling that a child born to a mother who has feelings of resentment for it would not bode well with the child's mental health in later life.


Well, that's me. I can't ask you to understand nor agree with me, but my views won't change on how I plan to conduct myself should anything [god forbid] like that happen.-

-

Anyway,



I'm going to direct you to the BMJ. It pretty much says your wrong. tonnes of abortion cases are due to contraceptive failure.



Millions of children have uttered "I wish I'd never been born" Unfortunately, we're unable to deduce whether that comes from the heart.



No. It's not practically impossible. Again, I direct you to the BMJ and about a million other sources on google who will all tell you that it's not practically impossible.

And pregnancy via rape is hardly rare and meaningless to the discussion. There are girls raped every damn day. Until I can find some stats I am just going to have to hypothesise that not all rapists wear condoms and whilst not all sex = pregnancy. It happens. It's hardly a rarity.


Yes, it should. But there are already countless children waiting for homes..so they're hardly going to start making it easy for people to give up unwanted children.



minor?

Minor inconvenience?

Lessee.

Okay, firstly there's the time off work/school you're going to need. That's either at a detriment to your household income [alarm bells-you've got to pay for a baby soon] or a detriment to your education.

There's pain and discomfort. Back pain, boob pain, stomach pain, ankle swelling, fatigue.

Increased risk of diabetes. Tell anyone with the disease that it's only minor, and they'll probably hit you.

there's Preterm Delivery, Preeclampsia and Abnormal Uterine Bleeding to worry about. Oh, and some are fatal. [see: not minor]

There's some super fun hypertension risks. Minor too?

Lest we forget the Uterine, Placental and Cervical Complications that a person risks for a child they don't want.

And oh yeah...giving birth hurts.

Call it minor if you want..but I think every medical journal and sane mother will tell you nine months of carrying a sack of potatoes around in your tummy is a little more than minor...thankyou very much.



I'm not a feminist, just to clarify.

But if you think that weighing up the pros and cons of bringing an unwanted child into the world, with the hope of either giving it an uncertain future with adoption, or a future with parents who didn't want it/can't afford it/resent it is irresponsible, then I honestly don't know what you can deem a responsible action.


-

Sorry. that was long. I accept no responsibility if your eyes bleed.
Just one question? What's the double dutch method? Is it anything like doggy style and if so how does this prevent pregnancy?
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Howard
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(Original post by lessthanthree)
I can't believe you quoted the whole thing.

Double dutch = Pill [oral contraceptive - microgynon 30 ] PLUS a condom.

and it prevents pregnancy..uh, a lot. And also STDs
Sounds very scientific.
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blissy
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#68
(Original post by Howard)
Just one question? What's the double dutch method? Is it anything like doggy style and if so how does this prevent pregnancy?
I believe double dutch is using the pill and condoms at the same time.

If I got pregnant now I couldn't have an abortion (well at least if I was pregnant by my boyfriend!) It would be too upsetting
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Howard
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#69
(Original post by blissy)
I believe double dutch is using the pill and condoms at the same time.
So, I've just been informed by lessthanthree. I think knee pads and a motorcycle helmet should be added for extra safe sex though.
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technik
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#70
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#70
in the mouth is safer
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Howard
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#71
(Original post by technik)
in the mouth is safer
One up the bum, no harm done.
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technik
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#72
(Original post by Howard)
One up the bum, no harm done.
nah thats just dirt
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Howard
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#73
(Original post by technik)
nah thats just dirt
Rather be pushing **** than pushing a pram.
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technik
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#74
(Original post by Howard)
Rather be pushing **** than pushing a pram.
each to their own i suppose...
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an Siarach
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#75
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#75
(Original post by bratcat)
What do I need to 'get over'? I've already stated my views on promiscuity. It's not for me. What others do is up to them. I fail to see why women should be expected to be 'morally superior' to men.
As women are liable to get pregnant they have greater responsibilities when it comes to sex than men which is something you seem incapable of accepting which points to dissatisfaction with the fact that the genders are different. Hence the 'get over it'.
(Original post by bratcat)
That's actually quite insulting...to men.
Hardly. Refusing to leave responsibility for your own wellbeing to others is hardly insulting to them.
(Original post by bratcat)
You're seriously telling me that men are incapable of popping a pill once a day.
Am i? Quote me doing so then.
(Original post by bratcat)
Let me reverse that statement: Well, if I were at the risk of making a woman pregnant I wouldn't trust any woman to make sure I didn't get into a situation I did not want.
How can you moan about men not living up to their responsibilities thus avoiding the very situation you are talking about and then come up with that? Anyway the reversal of the question is not valid. The question is not regarding maintanence payments (which is the only situation that would apply to an unwilling father) but to actually carrying the pregnancy through and giving birth to the child which (seeing as you enjoy biology lessons) only applies to the woman.
(Original post by bratcat)
Yes, it's a biological fact that 'women get pregnant'. It is also a biological fact that it is possible for a man to father hundreds of children in his lifetime, so is it too much to ask that they take responsiblity for their own hyperfertility?
Oh certainly men should take responsibility but that does not change the fact that the final responsibility lies with the woman.
(Original post by bratcat)
Are you suggesting that men are incapable of doing this?
No. Im simply pointing out that only women can become pregnant. And it is a womans decisions which lead to her becoming pregnant or not.
(Original post by bratcat)
Maybe you should dress up as Batman, ascend Buckingham Palace and declare 'Families Don't Need Fathers'.
I dont think Oscar Wilde need worry about his place in history.
(Original post by bratcat)
Why doesn't that response surprise me?
Why dont you tell us.
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an Siarach
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#76
(Original post by lessthanthree)
I'm going to direct you to the BMJ. It pretty much says your wrong. tonnes of abortion cases are due to contraceptive failure.
No. Most 'contraceptive failure' is a result of incorrect use. And how many of these pregnancies via 'contraceptive failure' occured when only a single form of contraceptive was being used? If all realistic were used and THEN a pregnancy ocurred - which has a likelyhood of a fraction of a fraction of a percentage - then you would have a point perhaps.
(Original post by lessthanthree)
Millions of children have uttered "I wish I'd never been born" Unfortunately, we're unable to deduce whether that comes from the heart.
Oh come on, lets not pretend the angsty cry of a teen/pre teen is anywhere near a considered statement regarding their own existence.
(Original post by lessthanthree)
No. It's not practically impossible. Again, I direct you to the BMJ and about a million other sources on google who will all tell you that it's not practically impossible.
Yes it is practically impossible. You are confusing misuse and failure to use contraceptives with them failing.
(Original post by lessthanthree)
And pregnancy via rape is hardly rare and meaningless to the discussion.
It is so rare that it is not worth taking over the discussion which is what frequently happens as people are always emotive - see the following statement.
(Original post by lessthanthree)
There are girls raped every damn day.
(Original post by lessthanthree)
Until I can find some stats I am just going to have to hypothesise that not all rapists wear condoms and whilst not all sex = pregnancy. It happens. It's hardly a rarity.
Whether or not rapists wear condoms was never an issue. Your final statements arent too clear but im assuming youre still referring to pregnancy via rape in which case i have to contradict you. Yes it happens and it is rare.
(Original post by lessthanthree)
Yes, it should. But there are already countless children waiting for homes..so they're hardly going to start making it easy for people to give up unwanted children.
Yes but what im saying is they should improve the system to make it so.



(Original post by lessthanthree)
minor?

Minor inconvenience?

Lessee.

Okay, firstly there's the time off work/school you're going to need. That's either at a detriment to your household income [alarm bells-you've got to pay for a baby soon] or a detriment to your education.

There's pain and discomfort. Back pain, boob pain, stomach pain, ankle swelling, fatigue.

Increased risk of diabetes. Tell anyone with the disease that it's only minor, and they'll probably hit you.

there's Preterm Delivery, Preeclampsia and Abnormal Uterine Bleeding to worry about. Oh, and some are fatal. [see: not minor]

There's some super fun hypertension risks. Minor too?

Lest we forget the Uterine, Placental and Cervical Complications that a person risks for a child they don't want.

And oh yeah...giving birth hurts.

Call it minor if you want..but I think every medical journal and sane mother will tell you nine months of carrying a sack of potatoes around in your tummy is a little more than minor...thankyou very much.
As was quite clear in the context i meant comparitively minor. When compared to anothers life/death it is totally minor.
(Original post by lessthanthree)
I'm not a feminist, just to clarify.

But if you think that weighing up the pros and cons of bringing an unwanted child into the world, with the hope of either giving it an uncertain future with adoption, or a future with parents who didn't want it/can't afford it/resent it is irresponsible, then I honestly don't know what you can deem a responsible action.
Oh i wasnt throwing that at anyone involved in the thread, it was just a general rant type of comment. Personally i think the erring should be on the side of life rather than have the reluctant parents hypothesise about whether or not their child would want to live (a fairly pointless question really.)

-

(Original post by lessthanthree)
Sorry. that was long. I accept no responsibility if your eyes bleed.
Not to worry, its probs the best contribution to the thread so far.
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an Siarach
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#77
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(Original post by lessthanthree)
Does life of zygote > life of mother to you, perchance?
I wasnt aware giving birth killed the mother. Im sure my own will be quite surprised.

EDIT: If there are legitimate reasons to fear for the mothers mental and phyiscal healthy i agree abortions should be legal (as ive stated previously) and thus the laws we currently have in place would be totally sufficient - as it is abortions motivated by these reasons which are legal - however it is quite rare when a life is in danger in either way which is how we have so many casual and unjustifiable abortions going on. Thats a no to your question btw .
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NDGAARONDI
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Caesarian operations are made in order to help deliver a foetus when a pregnacy would result in a likelihood severe damage to the mother or death. This can be applied to later devloped foetuses. This means that arguments put forward about health, should be reduced in this respect.
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an Siarach
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The laws we currently have in place in the UK are perfectly ok. The only problem is that they are not enforced.
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an Siarach
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(Original post by lessthanthree)
really? elaborate please?- I didn't know that. [or is that just opinion based?] O.o
As far as i know abortions are only permitted when there is a real risk to the health of the mother (mental or physical) and if they are incapable of supporting it (please correct me if the law is otherwise) whereas most abortions are for far more trivial reasons. Thus the law is not enforced.
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