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Information cannot be destroyed, so what happens to our minds when we die?

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Reply 20
Original post by manchesterunited15
nah mate


Right, so in other words, you're a chimp in shoes who didn't understand a word I just wrote. :rolleyes:
No one really knows. Not yet anyway.
Original post by Dis i like
Right, so in other words, you're a chimp in shoes who didn't understand a word I just wrote. :rolleyes:


Of course I did, but you're just wrong. When we die our minds are destroyed and so any information goes with them. What do you think happens, the information flies away into someone else's brain?
Original post by Dis i like
The third law of thermodynamics states: "The entropy of a system at absolute zero is typically zero, and in all cases is determined only by the number of different ground states it has."

The time evolution of a physical system is effected by applying some transformation to the state of the system at a given moment, such that, if we have a state describable by some string x at a given point in time, the state at a later point in time will be described by a certain function f(x) of that state. If now there is a function f-1 we can apply to that evolved state to again get out the state x, i.e. if f-1(f(x)) = x, no information has been lost.

Information cannot be destroyed.


I'm a physics noob but why are you assuming that there is such a function f^-1? Many processes (basically all, in reality) are thermodynamically irreversible and produce entropy, so by definition there cannot be such an inverse function.
(edited 11 years ago)
If information can't be destroyed /please/ tell me where my keys are. I've looked everywhere.
Reply 25
The premise that information cannot be destroyed seems to be suspect. Say I write a novel on Microsoft Word, never show it or read it to anybody else, forget most of it, the file is deleted, and then I die. The information which is the contents of that novel would appear to be destroyed, in the sense that it has become unrecoverable.
Reply 26
Original post by manchesterunited15
Of course I did, but you're just wrong. When we die our minds are destroyed and so any information goes with them. What do you think happens, the information flies away into someone else's brain?


If I am so plainly wrong why not address the content of my post and demonstrate the flaws in my argument?

In any case, the vast majority of physicists, including Susskind and Hawkins, agree that information cannot be destroyed. Unless you have a very compelling reason to think otherwise which you'd like to share, I see no reason for me to reconsider my position.
Original post by Dis i like
If I am so plainly wrong why not address the content of my post and demonstrate the flaws in my argument?

In any case, the vast majority of physicists, including Susskind and Hawkins, agree that information cannot be destroyed. Unless you have a very compelling reason to think otherwise which you'd like to share, I see no reason for me to reconsider my position.


What do they consider to be information though?
Original post by green.tea
I just smashed a battery with a hammer.


Might be a better idea to smash an external hard drive :K:
Original post by Dis i like
If I am so plainly wrong why not address the content of my post and demonstrate the flaws in my argument?

In any case, the vast majority of physicists, including Susskind and Hawkins, agree that information cannot be destroyed. Unless you have a very compelling reason to think otherwise which you'd like to share, I see no reason for me to reconsider my position.


I suppose, say if you burned a book, if someone understood wind and smoke and all the forces at work, they could re construct the information from the location of the various particles. So the informations not destroyed but is "lost" because nobody could read it.
Original post by manchesterunited15
Of course I did, but you're just wrong. When we die our minds are destroyed and so any information goes with them. What do you think happens, the information flies away into someone else's brain?


If that's the case sod revising, I'll just hang around hospitals the week before my exam :holmes:
Original post by Architecture-er
Might be a better idea to smash an external hard drive :K:


It has my essay on it tho.
Original post by green.tea
It has my essay on it tho.


Don't worry, information cannot be destroyed, the OP has argued his position brilliantly :ahee:
Original post by green.tea
I suppose, say if you burned a book, if someone understood wind and smoke and all the forces at work, they could re construct the information from the location of the various particles. So the informations not destroyed but is "lost" because nobody could read it.


Doesn't that suppose information=matter=energy though?

I mean even if we could get back all the matter that made up the book we'd still need a copy to assemble the contents in the right order - otherwise it'd just be pages of gibberish.
Reply 34
Perhaps we just forget everything, as if birth has been reversed. Just nothing! Hard to imagine.
Original post by ThePhilosoraptor
Doesn't that suppose information=matter=energy though?

I mean even if we could get back all the matter that made up the book we'd still need a copy to assemble the contents in the right order - otherwise it'd just be pages of gibberish.


Not if you could perfectly understand how each particle was moved and then perfectly move them back again.
Reply 36
Original post by Dis i like
The third law of thermodynamics states: "The entropy of a system at absolute zero is typically zero, and in all cases is determined only by the number of different ground states it has."

The time evolution of a physical system is effected by applying some transformation to the state of the system at a given moment, such that, if we have a state describable by some string x at a given point in time, the state at a later point in time will be described by a certain function f(x) of that state. If now there is a function f-1 we can apply to that evolved state to again get out the state x, i.e. if f-1(f(x)) = x, no information has been lost.

Information cannot be destroyed.


Your entire argument rests on the existance of f^-1 which a) does anot always exist and b) doesn't really make sense when more than 1 variable is involved.
Original post by Architecture-er
If that's the case sod revising, I'll just hang around hospitals the week before my exam :holmes:


genius :colone:
Reply 38
Original post by Forum User
I'm a physics noob but why are you assuming that there is such a function f^-1? Many processes (basically all, in reality) are thermodynamically irreversible and produce entropy, so by definition there cannot be such an inverse function.


The microstate of a system is ultimately given by its quantum mechanical description, i.e. something like a wave function, or a state vector (or, more accurately, an equivalence class thereof) in a Hilbert space. The important feature of quantum mechanics then is that time evolution is unitary, i.e. the transformation of a state at some time into the state at a later time is effected by some quantity U, for which there always exists a quantity U* such that U*U = 1, where 1 is the identity transformation, i.e. the transformation that 'does nothing'. So that if the state of the system is described by ψ, at a later time it will be described by φ = , and there exists U* such that U*φ = U*Uψ = = ψ, i.e. the original state can always be recovered.
Reply 39
Original post by Dis i like
The microstate of a system is ultimately given by its quantum mechanical description, i.e. something like a wave function, or a state vector (or, more accurately, an equivalence class thereof) in a Hilbert space. The important feature of quantum mechanics then is that time evolution is unitary, i.e. the transformation of a state at some time into the state at a later time is effected by some quantity U, for which there always exists a quantity U* such that U*U = 1, where 1 is the identity transformation, i.e. the transformation that 'does nothing'. So that if the state of the system is described by ψ, at a later time it will be described by φ = , and there exists U* such that U*φ = U*Uψ = = ψ, i.e. the original state can always be recovered.


This does not mean the the information turns into anything fo substance. A few dusk particles moving caoticlly could hold all the info from my mind. The answer to the OP is the info turns into heat and dust. This is exatly the same as if a dictionary was burned.

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