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    (Original post by unprinted)
    I think it's great that a man who's never been raped can say that being accused of rape is far worse.
    Are you suggesting that all the posters here who said being raped is worse have both been raped and been accused of rape?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Because rape has zero psychological effects, right?
    As psychotherapist Dr Albert Ellis has said, people contribute to their own upsetness. The idea behind the famed and widely used Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT) is based on the idea that you cannot change the incidents, but you can change how you approach them.

    The psychological effects of being raped could be minimised and helped with, but other people's perceptions of you, leading to you not having any friends, family, or jobs cannot be changed.

    This is of course without even taking into consideration of the fact that there are also psychological impact on a person who's been accused of rape. If you'been been raped, it's an action that lasts for an hour or so. If you've been accused of rape, it's a constant traumatic experience that might involve seeing yourself being bashed on the newspaper, on the internet, on the street, in your home, and everywhere else. There's also the lengthy judicial process.

    But of course, I don't know why this is so controversial to begin with. The post asked what I would prefer. I've given an answer. If it's not the same as yours, so what? Should everyone prefer what you prefer?
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    (Original post by clh_hilary)
    I already have covered all of them except for pregnancy (simply because I cannot get pregnant). Having a child is still better than having no friends, no family, no jobs, and people threatening to kill should I be accused of rape.

    Also, that's the worst scenario. In a better scenario, I'd be a woman in a western country, meaning ever if the rapist is judged innocent, I could still ask for him to pay for my child.

    The blame culture doesn't just affect the victim. The society judges both sides - the victim brings it on themselves, but at the same time they wouldn't want to associate or hire the accused rapist. This is also ignoring the fact that if you're raped, it's less likely for your mother to disown you than if you've been accused of rape.

    This is especially true with my career as a teacher. I will never be able to find a teaching job anywhere if I've been accused of rape. And this would be the case whether I'm working in the UK, the US, Canada, the middle east, Africa, Hong Kong, Beijing, Japan, Australia, or Antarctica.

    I didn't look at it in a black or white way, I've considered a wide range of scenarios and come to the conclusion that it's better to be raped than be accused of being raped. But at the same time, you're very one-sided and considered only one side but not another.
    I've already said that I understand how damaging it would be to be falsely accused of rape. Completely, irrevocably damsging, but not comparable to rape.

    Said child could be wholly unwanted. You'd have to carry the child for nine months, give birth to it (which is extremely painful), and then raise it. It could look a lot like your rapist too, which could make it difficult to love (every situation is different though, some woman might not feel this way).

    And no offense but you're also being one sided by not fully considering the implications of unwanted pregnancy, particularly with women who don't have the option of abortion/ contraception. And I know a lot of more traditional families would throw a daughter out for being pregnant.

    The victim never brings it on themselves. That's a truly worrying view and it scares me that you're a teacher if you think that way.

    With both accusations and rape there's a chance of mental health issues (depression, anxiety, isolation) because some rape victims alienate themselves and isolate themselves because they're scared it'll happen again or that they'll be judged (in a similar way to those who are falsely accused). However, at least with a false accusation you don't have nightmares of the incident and trauma for it. That can affect a person for years.

    I don't think you truly understand how damaging rape is. Rape is damaging to men too and I guarantee you'd see what I mean if you were ever (God forbid) in that position.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Well, I'd say the main distinction is reasonable belief; there's a more considerable scope in rape cases to say you had reasonable belief that the victim consented even if she didn't. But this isn't so much a difference in the nature of the crime as the likelihood of particular circumstances of it.

    Yeah, had heard about it before, just couldn't remember the case name, thanks. Is an interesting one. Indeed, there's quite a lot of debate among anarchists about the nature of BDSM and to what extent it's authoritarian or coercive.
    I'd say there's a difference because sex is a very normal part of everyday life, certainly compared to consensual beatings or owner-mandated car torching.
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    (Original post by clh_hilary)
    Are you suggesting that all the posters here who said being raped is worse have both been raped and been accused of rape?
    No. I am sure that I hope you never find out how wrong you are.
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    I'd say there's a difference because consensual sex is a very normal part of everyday life, certainly compared to consensual beatings or owner-mandated car torching.
    Consensual sex is much more common than consensual beating, yes, which is why it's more likely to be reasonably believable that consent to sex has been given..
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    (Original post by All_TheCyanide)
    I've already said that I understand how damaging it would be to be falsely accused of rape. Completely, irrevocably damsging, but not comparable to rape.
    An assertion you still have yet to explain or support with anything.

    (Original post by All_TheCyanide)
    Said child could be wholly unwanted.
    Same goes to many pregnancies resulting from consensual sex.

    (Original post by All_TheCyanide)
    You'd have to carry the child for nine months, give birth to it (which is extremely painful), and then raise it.
    This is an event that's neutral and depends entirely on how you approach it. You could also see this as an opportunity and a mission.

    The child is separated from the rapist. The child is innocent, the rapist is not.

    The difference between this and the aftermath of being accused of rape is that whilst you could bring up a child with a good mindset, you cannot continue to be friendless, with no family, and be unemployed reasonably happily. Depending on the country, you'd starve to death without a job; but you wouldn't just because you have a child/

    (Original post by All_TheCyanide)
    It could look a lot like your rapist too, which could make it difficult to love (every situation is different though, some woman might not feel this way).
    This is an emotive argument that never has any actual support. People don't even generally look like their parents. It's mostly in films or cartoons where people do.

    (Original post by All_TheCyanide)
    And no offense but you're also being one sided
    The definition of being one-sided is to consider from only one side.

    What I have done was to list out all the consequences and effects from both and chose one that I believe would be worse for me.

    What you have done was to list out only the consequences and effects of one and insisted that that could be the only correct answer to the question whether I personally prefer one or another.

    (Original post by All_TheCyanide)
    by not fully considering the implications of unwanted pregnancy, particularly with women who don't have the option of abortion/ contraception. And I know a lot of more traditional families would throw a daughter out for being pregnant.
    So at best the effects are the same. You're left with no family and a big bill.

    Also, I don't see why I should consider pregnancy when I couldn't be pregnant? The question asked what I would prefer.

    (Original post by All_TheCyanide)
    The victim never brings it on themselves. That's a truly worrying view and it scares me that you're a teacher if you think that way.
    If twisting my words so you could throw out a random insult is your forté, I don't think you're worth responding to.

    (Original post by All_TheCyanide)
    With both accusations and rape there's a chance of mental health issues (depression, anxiety, isolation) because some rape victims alienate themselves and isolate themselves because they're scared it'll happen again or that they'll be judged (in a similar way to those who are falsely accused). However, at least with a false accusation you don't have nightmares of the incident and trauma for it. That can affect a person for years.
    How about the trauma of being unfriended by everyone you know?

    How about the trauma of having all your beloved saying hurtful words to you?

    How about the trauma of suddenly losing your career when you were climbing steadily and have a goal you would have achieved?

    How about the trauma of seeing yourself in the headline?

    How about the trauma of reading the comments under a YouTube video showing your arrest?

    How about the trauma of going through a year-long court case?

    You didn't think of any of that and simply believe that nothing happens if you've been accused of rape.

    (Original post by All_TheCyanide)
    I don't think you truly understand how damaging rape is. Rape is damaging to men too and I guarantee you'd see what I mean if you were ever (God forbid) in that position.
    This is a meaningless comment.

    I will then just say I guarantee you'd see what I mean if you were ever being accused of rape.
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    (Original post by unprinted)
    No. I am sure that I hope you never find out how wrong you are.
    As if I cannot say the exact same thing to you.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Consensual sex is much more common than consensual beating, yes, which is why it's more likely to be reasonably believable that consent to sex has been given..
    Okay, I don't think we actually disagree.
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    if you can protest about not being allowed to sit on each others faces on camera then you can get of your asses and protest about this
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    (Original post by clh_hilary)
    As if I cannot say the exact same thing to you.
    Let's ask some people who had plenty to lose when they were accused of rape. Say, Neil Hamilton and Jim Davidson.

    Would they rather go through that again or be raped themselves? They don't get to chose who they're raped by, or when, or how long it lasts, or whether or not they get something like HIV as a result. They are told there's a big chance that lots of people won't believe it was non-consensual, or will say that they asked for it, and it's extremely likely that their attacker(s) will never be convicted. It's quite likely that they'll never feel secure in the sort of place it happened ever again, and may have PTSD including flashbacks of it happening for the rest of their life. Of course, you can also tell them that if they feel upset afterwards, there's a psychiatrist who says that "people contribute to their own upsetness" and, apparently, that's not blaming them for being upset.

    I bet they'd say, horrible time that they both had, that they'd rather go through the experience of being accused again...
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    (Original post by UniMastermindBOSS)
    A lot of sick and twisted women are gonna have fun with this...
    A lot of sick and twisted men have fun raping, and then getting away with it.

    That's not to say this is right, the tenet of 'innocent until proven guilty' is fundamental within our justice system, and for good reason. I do think something needs to be done about the levels of conviction when it comes to rape, I don't know what that something is but it's not this.

    Also think any and all who try to disregard the opinions of others by screaming 'Feminazi!' are pathetic. That is not to say I agree with one side or the other, it's just to say it's pathetic. Engage, discuss, rebut (using your brain), that's how grown, clever folk do it.
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    (Original post by porn induced coma)
    A lot of sick and twisted men have fun raping, and then getting away with it.

    That's not to say this is right, the tenet of 'innocent until proven guilty' is fundamental within our justice system, and for good reason. I do think something needs to be done about the levels of conviction when it comes to rape, I don't know what that something is but it's not this.

    Also think any and all who try to disregard the opinions of others by screaming 'Feminazi!' are pathetic. That is not to say I agree with one side or the other, it's just to say it's pathetic. Engage, discuss, rebut (using your brain), that's how grown, clever folk do it.
    You really think this is a good idea? I'm sure many guys rape women and threaten to kill them or hurt them/their families if they say anything to anyone, so those men who rape and have fun getting away with it will still get away with it.

    This law won't help those cases at all, all it will do is allow women to accuse men of rape without needing to back it up.

    Only a feminazi would think this is a good idea. What they need to do is increase convictions of false rape claims if they go ahead with this, but that won't happen of course. Women will continue to get away with that.
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    (Original post by clh_hilary)

    How about the trauma of being unfriended by everyone you know?

    How about the trauma of having all your beloved saying hurtful words to you?

    How about the trauma of suddenly losing your career when you were climbing steadily and have a goal you would have achieved?

    How about the trauma of seeing yourself in the headline?

    How about the trauma of reading the comments under a YouTube video showing your arrest?

    How about the trauma of going through a year-long court case?

    You didn't think of any of that and simply believe that nothing happens if you've been accused of rape.



    This is a meaningless comment.

    I will then just say I guarantee you'd see what I mean if you were ever being accused of rape.
    I wasn't going to bother but then I got to your little list of questions. You think the trauma of 'oh, my mates won't play with me anymore' compares to being raped? That beggars belief. The rest of your points are on a par really. As someone who has been raped, victim blamed and failed by the justice system I could not say nothing when foolish people like you run around, spewing ignorance. For each and every question you posed, it is far more horrific on the other side. I will pose them back to you.

    How about the trauma of being violated so badly you don't know who you can trust? (90% of rape victims from the last year knew the perpetrator)

    How about the trauma of having near enough everyone saying hurtful words to you? (Victim blaming)

    How about the trauma of suddenly losing your career when you were climbing steadily and have a goal you would have achieved? PTSD? Especially prevalent among women in the armed forces. They lose everything because no one believes them, and many suffer injuries from the level of violence in the attack.

    How about the trauma of seeing yourself in the headline? Yup.

    How about the trauma of reading the comments under a YouTube video showing your arrest?

    How about the trauma of going through a year-long court case? Yup. And then having to live the rest of your life with what that man did to you. Remembering how sweaty and fat he was, how disgusting it sounded when he grunted in your ear, while you cried, screamed, begged for him to stop, bleeding for days after.

    Comparing the two is stupid. Now if you genuinely think they are comparable then that is damn scary, but unsurprising. There will always be people like you around, thinking women are merely chattel, even in this day and age.

    Again, I don't believe 'guilty until proven innocent' is ever okay. I didn't think it was okay when Bush and Obama were doing it to suspected terrorists, I don't think it's okay now.
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    (Original post by UniMastermindBOSS)
    You really think this is a good idea? I'm sure many guys rape women and threaten to kill them or hurt them/their families if they say anything to anyone, so those men who rape and have fun getting away with it will still get away with it.

    This law won't help those cases at all, all it will do is allow women to accuse men of rape without needing to back it up.

    Only a feminazi would think this is a good idea. What they need to do is increase convictions of false rape claims if they go ahead with this, but that won't happen of course. Women will continue to get away with that.
    You only read the first line of my post, didn't you? Read the rest. I very specifically say IT IS NOT RIGHT.
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    (Original post by unprinted)
    Let's ask some people who had plenty to lose when they were accused of rape. Say, Neil Hamilton and Jim Davidson.

    Would they rather go through that again or be raped themselves? They don't get to chose who they're raped by, or when, or how long it lasts, or whether or not they get something like HIV as a result. They are told there's a big chance that lots of people won't believe it was non-consensual, or will say that they asked for it, and it's extremely likely that their attacker(s) will never be convicted. It's quite likely that they'll never feel secure in the sort of place it happened ever again, and may have PTSD including flashbacks of it happening for the rest of their life. Of course, you can also tell them that if they feel upset afterwards, there's a psychiatrist who says that "people contribute to their own upsetness" and, apparently, that's not blaming them for being upset.

    I bet they'd say, horrible time that they both had, that they'd rather go through the experience of being accused again...
    Would they rather go through that again or be raped themselves? They don't get to chose who they're being accused by, or when, or how long the media storm lasts, or whether or not they get something like jailtime as a result. They are told there's a big chance that lots of people won't believe it was consensual, or will say that they asked for it, and it's extremely likely that their victims will never be convicted. It's quite likely that they'll never feel secure having sex with anyone ever again, and may have PTSD including flashbacks of the court time, the arrest, the family conflicts, the friends leaving, the newspaper headlines, the insults on the street and the internet, etc happening for the rest of their life. Of course, you can also tell them that if they feel upset afterwards, there's a psychiatrist who says that "people contribute to their own upsetness" and, apparently, that's not blaming them for being upset.

    I bet they'd say, horrible time that they both had, that they'd rather be raped...

    + You're still not getting the point. Being upset is one thing - in both cases, the people are going to undergo psychological distress; but being accused of rape is to lose your life regardless of how you approach the situation or what you do.
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    (Original post by porn induced coma)
    I wasn't going to bother but then I got to your little list of questions. You think the trauma of 'oh, my mates won't play with me anymore' compares to being raped?
    It's losing your family, all your friends, your career, and consequently your life.

    Worse still, this is not something you can control. You cannot even tell yourself 'I'll be strong and this will be over one day' because you will not be hired.

    (Original post by porn induced coma)
    As someone who has been raped, victim blamed and failed by the justice system I could not say nothing when foolish people like you run around, spewing ignorance. For each and every question you posed, it is far more horrific on the other side.
    So you've been accused of being raped? If not, your experience does not add to the 'argument'.

    Regardless, there is no argument. What I'd prefer is not necessarily what you would prefer.

    (Original post by porn induced coma)
    How about the trauma of being violated so badly you don't know who you can trust?
    How about because of the fear of being accused of rape and never talk to any woman ever again?

    (Original post by porn induced coma)
    How about the trauma of having near enough everyone saying hurtful words to you? (Victim blaming)
    As if people who have been falsely accused of rape do not experience the same thing.

    (Original post by porn induced coma)
    How about the trauma of suddenly losing your career when you were climbing steadily and have a goal you would have achieved? PTSD? Especially prevalent among women in the armed forces. They lose everything because no one believes them, and many suffer injuries from the level of violence in the attack.
    The difference between being raped and being accused is that, with or without PTSD, you're losing your career if you're being accused, no matter what; if you're being raped, you may not.

    (Original post by porn induced coma)
    How about the trauma of seeing yourself in the headline? Yup.
    Not only is their anonymity granted for people who accuse of other people of rape, but this also does not make being raped better.

    (Original post by porn induced coma)
    How about the trauma of reading the comments under a YouTube video showing your arrest?
    You didn't respond to this this.

    (Original post by porn induced coma)
    How about the trauma of going through a year-long court case? Yup. And then having to live the rest of your life with what that man did to you. Remembering how sweaty and fat he was, how disgusting it sounded when he grunted in your ear, while you cried, screamed, begged for him to stop, bleeding for days after.
    As if living through a court case does not follow you the rest of your life, both emotionally and practically.

    (Original post by porn induced coma)
    There will always be people like you around, thinking women are merely chattel, even in this day and age.
    There will always be people like you around, who would accuse of people 'thinking women are merely chattel' when you don't realise the fact that I'm not even straight and thus have no desire for any woman whatsoever.

    'Feminists' like you just automatically assumed that people are anti-feminist or something when people merely disagree with you. For the last time, the question asked what I'd prefer. I answered, and if you cannot deal with the fact that not everybody feels the same way you do, maybe you should grow up. Or just stop responding telling me what I should prefer.
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    (Original post by unprinted)
    There was I hoping the Evans fan club had gone away...

    When she woke up in the urine soaked bed - she'd been so drunk, she wet herself while unconscious - she didn't think she had been raped. She couldn't remember a thing and thought she'd been robbed. So she went to the police about that. It was clear that two men had been in that room, McDonald and Evans. So the police interviewed them both. Based on what they said, including that they'd both had sex with her, and the evidence of witnesses who'd seen how drunk she was, they were charged with rape: the case being she was so drunk as to lack capacity to consent.

    Unless you're suggesting the jury - who saw and heard all the evidence - tossed a coin to decide their verdicts, that McDonald was acquitted and Evans convicted is a sign that they did follow the route to verdict that they were supposed to do.

    Did she have the capacity to consent? No. (If the answer had been yes, both men would have been acquitted.)

    Despite that, did McDonald have a reasonable albeit mistaken belief in her consent? Yes, he may have done. He had actually talked to her outside the hotel, and she'd gone with him to it, for example. So he was acquitted - as others have said already, a reasonable belief in consent is enough.

    Did Evans have a reasonable belief in her consent? No! He turned up, uninvited, unexpected, and unwanted in the room, having lied to get the key and very probably sent his brother and another friend to the window where they were trying to film what was happening. His only contact with her before then turned out to be stepping over her body as she was literally falling down drunk in a kebab shop. Both he and McDonald gave evidence that they didn't ask if he could have sex with her, but he did so anyway. No-one - including the pair outside the window or the night porter who listened at the door at one point and could hear what was happening inside the room - heard her "repeatedly" "calling out" "**** me harder" as he claimed she did. He left as though he knew he'd done something wrong. Basically, he was convicted on what he said he did and didn't do...

    The Evans case shows the jury doing its work properly.
    Juries decide cases arbitrarily all the time. Sometimes it's not even as sophisticated as tossing a coin - there is widespread evidence in the United States of juries deciding cases so they can go home. In this jurisdiction, it isn't officially recorded (interviews not permitted), but in casual interviews that is the case all the time and it has been the experience of countless jurors that juries decide to punish "someone" just because they think they should.
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    I remember a while back on here people joking about having to sign a written form before having sex with someone but now this new law literally means that.

    This is quite possibly one of the most ridiculous pieces of legislation I've ever seen.
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    (Original post by UniMastermindBOSS)
    A lot of sick and twisted women are gonna have fun with this...
    (Original post by Hal.E.Lujah)
    There's an inherent sexism to these guidelines. They seem to be working under the assumption that no woman would ever ever be nasty or smart enough to abuse it, despite the fact we're meant to treat genders equally. Attitudes like this segregate and demean women.

    Personal experience of this from watching my flatmate get drunk, pull a guy at a club, sometimes go back to his but often bring him to ours, sit and have fun with him for hours, go back to her room with him, then in the morning tell us all she'd been raped and followed home. :indiff:
    if she's drunk, and he's not, or less so, then it's his responsibility to not take advantage of her. If he was significantly more sober than she was then she's right to say that she was raped.
 
 
 
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