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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1601
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#1601
(Original post by Einheri)
Maeda Mitsuyo's background before Judo was in Sumo Wrestling; he had never trained in Traditional Jiu-jitsu. He certainly picked up a bit of Catch Wrestling though, very true. The major difference between modern Judo and pre-war Judo (that Maeda learned and taught) is that modern Judo focuses on "tachi-waza" (standing techniques) and pre-war Judo (or Kano Jiu-jitsu to use the term that Maeda wuld have been more familiar with) focused on "Ne-waza" (ground techniques) - the core techniques and principles are the same; just a different emphasis.



Judo was widely known as Kano Jiu-jitsu well into the 20th century (Maeda left Japan in 1904, came to Brazil in 1914); in fact the term "Judo" wasn't widely used until Kano began pushing for Olympic recognition. Judo was Kano Jigoro's preferred term for it as he emphasized the practice as a "do" (a way of life), but the two terms existed together for a very long time - Jiu-jitsu was likely just the term Maeda was originally introduced to, was familiar with and so kept using. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu would have been called Brazilian Judo except for a simple preference for the more familiar term on Maeda's part.

Edit: As shown here, published in 1905:

Actually, it was known as judo becuase in japan the existng schools didnt reagrd kanos system as a jitsu, as i have already said. when maeda took it round the world, he may well have adopted the term ju jitsu rather than judo, which many people knew was a sport practiced in japanese schools.
but that sort of makes my point for me.
Maeda was trained by kano - a high lvel ju jitsu practicioner himself. He created judo to make some money, not to superceed ju jitsu, as you know what kano orginally taught was effectively ju jitsu in its entire from in terms of techniques used - but with the added sports dimesnion he picked up from wrestling, hence judo drifted away from the comabt aspect of ju jitsu to the formalised sportised nature of today. This was accelerated by the fact that he then aimed it at kids and westeners.
JJ practiced in combat form (self defense), as it was in brazil vale tudo , involves various techniques along side ground submissions - atemi waza for example, not ever going to be taught to you if you are going to only practice grappling in a school dojo or a cage

Without being an expert on judo, im certainly aware that bjj and judo are vastly different on the ground - whereas in a ju jitsu class guys are perfectly comfortable with submissions from guard,whereas judo players are good at falling ontop of one another.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1602
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#1602
(Original post by Clip)
I do not believe that there is a single Judo school in the country, possibly in the world where an 8-year old can be a 1st Dan. Judo is highly regulated and standardised - far more than almost any other combat sport or martial art. .
i was being mildy sarcastic - there are 15 and 16 year old judo black belts in europe however, who knows how many kids in asia.


(Original post by Clip)
What's wrong with fanboys practising their styles? Hasn't it been ever thus? Thirty or forty years ago, it was Bruce Lee fanboys that got into any martial art that was being taught - and some of these people eventually became the legit instructors of today. I don't see many other reasons for people starting these hobbies. .
They annoy me. They certainly have no place giving out advice about martial arts


(Original post by Clip)
Nope, sorry. You've just made most of this up. Judo is fundamentally different from Jiu-jitsu. It's not about the specific. It's about the training philosophy - a training philosophy that made JJ extinct. There is no general concept of legit TJJ any more in Japan - it has been accepted that there are only two legit JJ schools - Judo and Aikido. The Judo training philosophy was then ported on to BJJ, whilst Aikido strangely went in the opposite direction and went all quasi-religious.

The truth is that there is little sense in which BJJ isn't actually "Brazilian Judo", as BJJ has very little to do with TJJ. Judo, is however almost a specific brand name, and at the time the Kodokan didn't want people slinging it about where the syllabus had been changed.

Why am I writing this? You're just making random stuff up.

You clearly have no clue about either ju jitsu or judo, or to thick to realise that fact ie- "Ju jitsu is extinct" Eh ??
so you can read your friends einheris post above or ask him to explain to you that judo was invented by a jujitsu practioner, and that is largley what he taught, originally.
the judo you learn is the same the 11 year olds learnt as part of their PE in 1960s japan, whcih is probably less than 40% of what a ju jistsu practioner would be taught.
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Dr. Bassman
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#1603
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#1603
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
You clearly have no clue about either ju jitsu or judo
Not interested in wasting anymore of my time with you, just pointing out the unbelievable irony in you saying that, given that you did claim that judo was a ground-based MA.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1604
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#1604
(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
Not interested in wasting anymore of my time with you, just pointing out the unbelievable irony in you saying that, given that you did claim that judo was a ground-based MA.
Did i? , i thought i said it was a two-men-hugging-each-other-and-then-falling down-sport
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Dr. Bassman
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#1605
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#1605
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Did i? , i thought i said it was a two-men-hugging-each-other-and-then-falling down-sport
You did, I made a point of going on about it for ages, because it's not only hilarious, but it also adequately sums up your ignorance about fighting in general.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1606
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#1606
(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
You did, I made a point of going on about it for ages, because it's not only hilarious, but it also adequately sums up your ignorance about fighting in general.
i think you are confused, i made the point that it is a grappling system, the idea of judo being to get the other guy on the floor. and from the clips einheri provided, that largly involves hugging and leaning on the other guy till he gets tired and needs to lie down.
That doesnt constitute a martial art in my eyes thanks.
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Dr. Bassman
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#1607
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#1607
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
i think you are confused, i made the point that it is a grappling system, the idea of judo being to get the other guy on the floor. and from the clips einheri provided, that largly involves hugging and leaning on the other guy till he gets tired and needs to lie down.
That doesnt constitute a martial art in my eyes thanks.
I'm not confused, I know what you said. The simple fact is that you didn't know what judo was. There's not really any way of you getting out of it and I know you're too stubborn to admit when you're wrong so you're basically going to continue to be your obnoxious, rude self until people stop posting. And it works!
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1608
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#1608
(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
I'm not confused, I know what you said. The simple fact is that you didn't know what judo was. There's not really any way of you getting out of it and I know you're too stubborn to admit when you're wrong so you're basically going to continue to be your obnoxious, rude self until people stop posting. And it works!
i have never seen any level of effectiveness of a standalone judo player on the ground, so there is no reason to call it a ground system. you clearly havent a grasp of what you are *****ing about. The whole issue of judo being a sport is that it has little practicality outside a matted dojo, unless you combine it with proper JJ, wherein there is no point using judo. Im really not trying to get out of anything, you do judo and kickboxing, when you grow up you can move up to JJ and muay thai.
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Clip
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#1609
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#1609
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
i have never seen any level of effectiveness of a standalone judo player on the ground, so there is no reason to call it a ground system. you clearly havent a grasp of what you are *****ing about. The whole issue of judo being a sport is that it has little practicality outside a matted dojo, unless you combine it with proper JJ, wherein there is no point using judo. Im really not trying to get out of anything, you do judo and kickboxing, when you grow up you can move up to JJ and muay thai.
Do you accept that Jiu-jitsu effectively no longer exists in Japan, and this was due to being proven to be combat ineffective against Judo?

Simple question - do you accept or reject that statement?
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1610
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#1610
Japan is one place i have never actually trained in, but

http://www.roppokai-tokyo.com/

is a daito ryu school for one

which probably answeres your question

Im not saying bjj isnt now massively popular in japan too due to tv exposure and 'competition martial arts', as judo became in the 60s, I seriously dont have the inclination to give you a complete education about jiu jitsu, go and train yourself if you wish to learn, far better than farming the internet

but you probably arnt even aware of the japan open, in whcih straight JJ guys often compete against Bjj and all too (within tournemnt rules of course) currently run by Rickson gracie of my old school
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1611
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#1611
(Original post by Clip)
Do you accept that Jiu-jitsu effectively no longer exists in Japan, and this was due to being proven to be combat ineffective against Judo?

Simple question - do you accept or reject that statement?




Japan is one place i have never actually trained in, but

http://www.roppokai-tokyo.com/

is a daito ryu school for one

which probably answeres your question

Im not saying bjj isnt now massively popular in japan too due to tv exposure and 'competition martial arts', as judo became in the 60s, I seriously dont have the inclination to give you a complete education about jiu jitsu, go and train yourself if you wish to learn, far better than farming the internet

but you probably arnt even aware of the japan open, in whcih straight JJ guys often compete against Bjj and all too (within tournemnt rules of course) currently run by Rickson gracie of my old school
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TheJ0ker
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#1612
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#1612
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
They annoy me. They certainly have no place giving out advice about martial arts
At some point every good fighter was a fanboy who wanted to try a sport they liked the look of.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1613
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#1613
(Original post by TheJ0ker)
At some point every good fighter was a fanboy who wanted to try a sport they liked the look of.
maybe 'fanboy' isnt the right word then.
annoying cage fighter wannabe ****ers
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TheJ0ker
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#1614
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#1614
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
maybe 'fanboy' isnt the right word then.
annoying cage fighter wannabe ****ers
Yeah fair enough, I hate it when people call it cage fighting...
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kyleches
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#1615
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#1615
So what arts does everyone actually train in ??

This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my GT-I9100
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sophieleannexo
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#1616
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#1616
(Original post by kyleches)
So what arts does everyone actually train in ??

This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my GT-I9100
I train in Freestyle Kung Fu, Kickboxing and Boxing. What about you?
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kyleches
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#1617
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#1617
Cool!! I train Brazilian jiu jitsu, Traditional jiu jitsu, kick boxing and boxing where are you from ?

This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my GT-I9100
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kyleches
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#1618
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#1618
What's free style kung fo ?? Have you competed !?
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sophieleannexo
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#1619
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#1619
It's mainly Kung Fu but we use stuff from other martial arts disciplines like I do weapons training etc. And I'm from Newcastle, you?
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Clip
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#1620
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#1620
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Japan is one place i have never actually trained in, but

http://www.roppokai-tokyo.com/

is a daito ryu school for one

which probably answeres your question
You're not making sense.

I asked if you accept that JJ effectively no longer exists. You didn't answer, you just posted a link.

Firstly, Daito-ryu is a tiny organisation.

Second, it's an aiki-jitsu and I'm sure there are aikido people willing to debate the point for 1000 years with you - but for all intents and purposes, daito-ryu and other aiki-jitsu have been subsumed by aikido.

Third, Daito-ryu was formed in the wake of Judo, one of those that rejected the training method and moved toward the ki stuff instead of randori.

This is not an example of JJ being alive and well in Japan.




Im not saying bjj isnt now massively popular in japan too due to tv exposure and 'competition martial arts', as judo became in the 60s, I seriously dont have the inclination to give you a complete education about jiu jitsu, go and train yourself if you wish to learn, far better than farming the internet
I don't understand what you are saying here. Judo has been a competition sport since its inception. That was the whole point. Certainly it was a competitive sport in Kano's lifetime.

What are you actually trying to say?


but you probably arnt even aware of the japan open, in whcih straight JJ guys often compete against Bjj and all too (within tournemnt rules of course)
For the love of god - that's a BJJ competition and under BJJ rules. It is not in any way a Japanese Jujitsu competition, and any JJJ competitor entering would be fighting under BJJ rules and scoring.


...currently run by Rickson gracie of my old school
So you're a BJJ practitioner are you? This amazes me as I have yet to meet one that is:

-opposed to the UFC
-for traditional martial arts
-against judo


I think you've completely lost the plot, and can only assume that you are having a laugh and just trolling for no good reason. Nothing you say makes any sense and every insult you hurl might as well apply to yourself.

In a couple of months, you've gone from being the staunch defender of chinese death magic to extolling the virtues of BJJ. The only consistent lines you have are that you continually berate anyone you believe to be a "UFC fanboy" (unusual since the UFC is exactly the kind of format promoted by BJJ), and accusing people of having no practical knowledge - but simply surfing the net for information.

Well - that appears to be exactly what you are doing.

Would you like to share with everyone exactly what your BJJ experience is?
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