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Is America really the "Land of the free"???

Original post by RandZul'Zorander

Hm...I don't think thats true. It seems to be you who is refusing to see reality. Not NYU.

Despite? without the public schools and roads there would be no society or anything for the success or the opportunity to create businesses.

And who is suggesting we get rid of them? Who is suggesting that they don't play a role in our society? The point is that far-left BS coming from Obama doesn't mean that socialist healthcare or backbreaking taxes build small businesses.

Social mobility is a huge indicator of the equality of a society. If a society is truly equal in opportunity, social mobility would be more than just a rare occasion.

Hmm, I guess we are all born equal, so we all have equal opportunities - it is just luck that some people's parents have more money than others. It still doesn't justify social mobility.

Says the person who claims that the US is 'the land of opportunity'. Go ask your professors. Go ask anyone who knows anything about politics or government, they'll all tell you the same.

That the USA is the best country in the world and that we have a duty to help other people in other countries, by spreading US freedom and values.

Go ahead and find one. :smile:

And just because people 'choose' to be religious (I'm not sure everyone does) doesn't mean anything.

Yes you do. You may be brought up a certain religion, but you don't have to follow it.

Lets also note that the bold goes against what you said before. That there isn't a high preponderance of right wing religious people. :rolleyes:

No more than on the left though.

That didn't defend what you said but was just a reiteration :facepalm:

The USA is more moral because it defends universal freedom and democracy. It has a cleaner reputation than every other country in the world. It is obviously the most moral country around.

But they do because the basis of the laws is their 'religious morals'. :rolleyes:

Using your own example gay marriage if you look at it from a secular point of view has no negative consequences, as there is nothing to 'protect' young children from.

Gay marriage will lead to more gay culture and it will influence and confuse young children.

How long do people have to wait for that to happen? Its been what? between 30 and 50 years now? And how is that supposed to happen if conservatives like you keep pushing legislation that disproportionally affects minority groups in low income areas?

This is just left-wing BS. It's not even worth a response.

Reply 61

DYKWIA

13

Both you and Rand are anti-american. You spread anti-american BS all over this forum.

Yet again, your complete incompetence in political science and utter and absolute ignorance is showing, as usual. Without the government there would be no public education, road/highways, etc. etc. etc. there would be no small business without government because there would no state. :facepalm:

Really, just how ignorant are you?

I'm not against government, I am against excessive, big, liberal government.

I didn't realize you were pro communism - to live in absolutely equal society like communism is not an American value. Watch out you're being un-American!

Firstly, no where does it say how the USA has to run the country economically. But secondly, I am not communist, I am just pointing out that this goal of 'social mobility' is BS because it doesn't tackle the issue of inequality and in fact it acts as a justification for inequality.

Read some political theory, your ignorance is killing me.

You always say that I am ignorant because I don't study what others have said on the issues we discuss, but I don't need the opinions of others to form my own opinions.

Christian politicians are fine - Christian politicians using their Christianity to justify passing certain bills is wrong; the US is a secular society. So, for example, banning same-sex marriage for religious reasons is wrong because that's not secular; banning abortions because of religious reasons is wrong because that's not secular; and so on and so forth. Christianity is forced on people when it's used as a guideline and justification for passing certain laws.

It is only a justification on top of other, secular, justifications.

(1) I'd love to see you try and prove that.
(2) Many European (and many non-European countries) think that the US trying to spread its ideals onto the rest of the world is very immoral because many countries don't want American ideals shoved down their throats. You're so completely ignorant it's actually sad.

We have every right to spread American values to the rest of the world. We can make the world a better place by making it more American.

In case you haven't noticed, the huge majority of people backing bans on same-sex marriage aren't doing for non-religious reasons. Additionally, as has been told to you many times, these BS claims about homosexuality are just that - complete and utter ignorant BS that you tell yourself at night to make yourself feel better about being a homophobic bigot.

Homosexuality is deeply wrong and it is damaging to society and kids. You only have to look at homosexual amorality, HIV rates etc.

Yeah, and you apparently didn't learn a thing. How unsurprising.

The US is often portrayed as 'the bad guy' because of people like you. Exactly due to people like you. "Let's force the ideals of the US onto other countries!" Hello Mr. Ignorant, wake up. Those other countries don't want your ideals; they want you to keep them to yourself.

I know that History in our country is just about teaching American kids to hate their own country.

Reply 62

emkiiie

certainly not. The thing is Americans don't accept the fact that their country is not the land of the free. They just ignore it however consciously or unconsciously and pretend like everything's "happy happy joy joy," which Brits don't tend to do. Sometimes that "everything's gonna be alright" spirit or whatever even seems somewhat irresponsible. Don't tackle this Americans, you DO. At least in the eyes of non-Americans.

Reply 63

callum9999

16

Original post by DYKWIA

We have every right to spread American values to the rest of the world. We can make the world a better place by making it more American.

Homosexuality is deeply wrong and it is damaging to society and kids. You only have to look at homosexual amorality, HIV rates etc.

I know that History in our country is just about teaching American kids to hate their own country.

Utterly pathetic. To believe your country is the best in the world is one thing, but to believe that the rest of the world needs to be Americanised to bring them up to a decent standard is pathetic.

How are HIV rates in the homosexual community damaging to society? It's not as if American society cares about the health of it's citizens. Ditto to alleged "homosexual amorality", which I'd be interested to see the slightest evidence that they are any more immoral than the rest of the country.

And history has nothing to do with how the rest of the world sees America - the current is what most people make their judgement on. And I'd wager that non-American children (and adults) "hate" the US much more than American children. The actions of the US government (i.e. I despise them, but judge individual Americans on their own merit, like most people do) are despised across the globe - pretty impressive for a set of values that would apparently improve the world...

Original post by SillyEddy

I think patriotism should be less about blowing your own country, and more about accepting that things are wrong (and being willing and try and fix it).

Particularly the Southern states think that everything they have was God given and that they really have the next holy-land outside of Jerusalem.

At a time it may have made steps towards freedom, but no longer. How many acts in the past year have nearly gone through to restrict websites from having even the faintest connection with other sites suspected of piracy? The incredibly relaxed method of writing the law makes it open to huge debate and prevents websites from normally operating, even if they were legal.

The US has the largest amount of citizens behind bars than any other country. It's not that crime should not be punished, or that to be "free" you must release everyone, but it's usually for petty crimes. The "3 strikes and you're out" means that you can get a life sentence from 3 convictions.

They whack off their constitution about free speech and freedom of religion, yet blast it in everyones' face and are incredibly intolerant. It's funny because the US should be a secular nation, but has a de facto religion. The UK is a religious country and is de facto non-specific.

Bad healthcare. Expensive medication. Bad education. A vague constitution. Constant invasion by the feds. A political system where companies are "people" and may buy out politicians en masse.

Yep. Free. Well, free to own a firearm (but they probably shouldn't be allowed).

To me, that just reads as a big rant about theoretical restrictions on your liberty. Just like people do the same with UK laws and claim we're living in a police state - while you can hint at that on paper, the reality is very different. Obviously America isn't the land of the free, but you'd be a fool to dispute that they are free.

Though how is American healthcare bad? People fly in from across the globe (including the UK) for their pioneering treatments. It's certainly expensive, but it's not really "bad". (As you listed expensive medicine as a separate point, I assume you mean the quality of healthcare is bad as opposed to access to it?)

Reply 64

fuzznbass

10

Well it is the land of the free if you're rich and powerful

Reply 65

SillyEddy

18

Original post by callum9999

To me, that just reads as a big rant about theoretical restrictions on your liberty. Just like people do the same with UK laws and claim we're living in a police state - while you can hint at that on paper, the reality is very different. Obviously America isn't the land of the free, but you'd be a fool to dispute that they are free.

Though how is American healthcare bad? People fly in from across the globe (including the UK) for their pioneering treatments. It's certainly expensive, but it's not really "bad". (As you listed expensive medicine as a separate point, I assume you mean the quality of healthcare is bad as opposed to access to it?)

Well the difference is that the US seems to hide its legislature and has made several attempts to pass the same law just by changing its name and hiding it away. The UK is not the saving grace of the world, but I think we're more ready to reflect on ourselves. We're proud, but we're not too proud.

And no, the US healthcare treatment is great when you can get it. I have used it before and it was far faster than the NHS, but accessibility and the system surrounding it is awful. If not for travel insurance, I would've been charged thousands of pounds. It's an awful system in that sense. Before Obama started to introduce his policies, I heard in interviews where citizens had to choose between working and dying because of a chronic condition, or getting healthcare, not being able to work, and having their family suffer as he was the only bread winner. It sucks, it really does.

Reply 66

callum9999

16

Original post by SillyEddy

Well the difference is that the US seems to hide its legislature and has made several attempts to pass the same law just by changing its name and hiding it away. The UK is not the saving grace of the world, but I think we're more ready to reflect on ourselves. We're proud, but we're not too proud.

And no, the US healthcare treatment is great when you can get it. I have used it before and it was far faster than the NHS, but accessibility and the system surrounding it is awful. If not for travel insurance, I would've been charged thousands of pounds. It's an awful system in that sense. Before Obama started to introduce his policies, I heard in interviews where citizens had to choose between working and dying because of a chronic condition, or getting healthcare, not being able to work, and having their family suffer as he was the only bread winner. It sucks, it really does.

I see where you're coming from, I just don't think it's really relevant to the freedom of the average citizen. The Patriot Act for example is one of the big anti-freedom measures you're talking about I guess? Which it is on paper, but does it actually make the average citizen feel less free than before it was around (excluding paranoia people may have)? I'd say it doesn't.

That's not a measure of freedom though. In fact, you could argue it's the opposite. Our healthcare in the UK is the product of forcing people with more money than you to pay for it (in my, and the majority of the users case).

Which is precisely how I think it should be, it just goes against the notion of "freedom" - something I think is overrated. It's important to be (or perhaps more apt, feel) free, but it's not important for everything that could possibly be free to be.

Reply 67

Emiliadarling

There is no such place as "the land of the free". Complete freedom exists only within the mind.

As for America being "the land of opportunity", this possesses a certain amount of truth in it. America was cultivated by opportunists, the man who discovered it was an opportunist-so it's not necessarily a fabrication. America, as a country, holds many opportunities for one to establish themselves.

Reply 68

KimiKimchi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45VGFgiFu7Y

Reply 69

CAZEE786

Land of Opportunity because maybe it is easier for people to get jobs in US! and most top-notch companies are in the US. Btw aren't UK people racist with Pakistanis and Bangladeshis as I have heard dont know exactly !!

Reply 70

Made in the USA

11

Original post by paddyman4

It's been significantly less free since their introduction of nifty catch-all terrorism charges.

It's the most incarcerated country on the planet, so in a literal sense it's not so free I guess. Plus they have the death penalty and torture even their own citizens - it doesn't seem so free if the state owns your life.

And if you look at their hounding of Assange then you can see their priorities don't lie with freedom.

A lot of things you are saying are incorrect. Not all states have the death penalty, for example

Reply 71

callum9999

16

Original post by Made in the USA

A lot of things you are saying are incorrect. Not all states have the death penalty, for example

The federal government has the death penalty though which means, correct me if I'm wrong, every square inch of the United States is therefore subject to the death penalty (regardless of the fact the federal government rarely actually carry out executions).

Reply 72

Rakas21

21

Original post by Made in the USA

A lot of things you are saying are incorrect. Not all states have the death penalty, for example

The fact that the federal government even allows states to have the death penalty (even if many choose not to) is pretty damming.

Reply 73

sugar-n-spice

1

It's one of the most free but that doesn't mean that the people actually have security and are well looked after.

no.

Original post by DYKWIA

Both you and Rand are anti-american. You spread anti-american BS all over this forum.

Freedom of speech is an important right, even if people use it badly.

Original post by DYKWIA

I'm not against government, I am against excessive, big, liberal government.

Then why are you in favour of the military so much? The army, navy, air force, security services all arms of the government. All paid for by the hardworking 'murrican taxpayers.

Original post by DYKWIA

Firstly, no where does it say how the USA has to run the country economically. But secondly, I am not communist, I am just pointing out that this goal of 'social mobility' is BS because it doesn't tackle the issue of inequality and in fact it acts as a justification for inequality.

So are you also against inequality? It's been pointed out to you but social mobility shows equality of opportunity which is why it is good. Shows the system works.

Original post by DYKWIA

You always say that I am ignorant because I don't study what others have said on the issues we discuss, but I don't need the opinions of others to form my own opinions.

Yeehaw

Original post by DYKWIA

Homosexuality is deeply wrong and it is damaging to society and kids. You only have to look at homosexual amorality, HIV rates etc.

Doesn't sound very free. Let me guess, you think Obama taking away you guns is a breech of freedom, but want gay marriage needs to be curtailed. You can't pick and choose which bits of freedom you want.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 76

Cannotbelieveit

15

Europe is decades ahead of America in so many ways.

Reply 77

Veneta

Original post by DYKWIA

Both you and Rand are anti-american. You spread anti-american BS all over this forum.

For goodness' sake, stop throwing the word 'anti-american' around. It's a word that can be used in the right circumstances (though there are always better words; to limit yourself to anti-american as an insult is to limit your vocabulary), but I've only seen it used the way you've just done here. That is, it's always used as a descriptor to imply the other person is a "bad person" for not agreeing with policies of the United States. This might be news to you, but it's possible to disagree with the policies of a country without disliking a country.

You should also remember that the states have different laws, so if we're going to throw around vague words that don't actually add anything substantial to the argument, then I'd say you're the anti-american one here, since you since to have so much against equality.

Reply 78

Christianlady

8

Original post by readysteady

My American friend was telling me what a wonderful country America is and it's the "land of opportunity,land of the free,America is freedom" bla bla

So why do Americans think that they are better than anyone else?

Many Americans do not think they are better than anyone else. I think it is hard for people who are not Americans to understand though that patriotism is a very strong component of life in the USA.

America , is supposed to be "The Land of the Free" , yet it is one of the most racist countries I have ever encountered? not to mention the religious-right evangelical extremists,paying for healthcare etc.

First of all, my husband, who is from Ecuador, thinks it's funny when people dub the USA "America." American citizens (from the USA) do this as well, which highly amuses him. He says that he's an American too, though he wasn't born in the USA. He's right, since Ecuador is most definitely in South America. Anyways, my husband's view is that it really depends on the people.

People in the USA are diverse, same as in many other countries. In every country one can find racist people living there. My husband though is very grateful for the USA because of all the tolerant people, as well as the freedoms/rights, as well as the blessings here that his own country does not provide. For example, we were talking with friends from Colombia and addressing the fact that in Colombia and Ecuador, many children are beggars who are not in school. :frown:

However, in the USA, children are encouraged to go to school. If a police man sees a child begging, he/she would strive to help that child and make sure that child goes to school. In Colombia and Ecuador, many very poor children are not in school and are not being taken care of but rather are out in the streets or are forced into force labor or prostitution. :frown:

Oh and America has free speech? yeah right!

Many people in the USA freely criticize President Obama, even for things that are not his fault. Long time ago however in European countries, freedom to criticize one's monarch was not a luxury most people had.

Free speech in the USA does not mean that one has the right to make death threats or verbally abuse anyone, but it does mean that one can criticize others, which happens in the USA all the time.

The beautiful thing to me about the free speech in the USA however is the creativity it affords. Many Americans adore comedy (me included) and the free speech of comedians can be hilarious. One that is my favorite men in the comedy business is Chris Rock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8BtHZWGB8c
Chris Rock uses a lot of profanity in many of his shows, which I don't like. I am free to say that. :tongue:

He is free to use profanity though in his shows and I really don't think he cares about what I think about his use of some lingo. :tongue:

He has some really good points and truth in his shows, spoken in a very funny way.

All I'm saying is that America doesn't have any more freedom than Europe or Japan.

Interestingly, people show what is in their hearts/attitudes by how they see something. They see a glass as being half-full or half-empty depending on how they want to see it.