R + J (probably posted 1000 times)
Hi there.
My new CA question is:
How does Shakespeare show pride and honor through one or two of the main characters (but we are told to focus on Mercutio and Bonvolio)
So, I watched the R+J Bas film and, yes it was good. Enjoyed it, didn't pick at it too much because I will watch it again for analysis.
Looking now for alternate adaptations, perhaps even theater shows on youtube.
Our teacher has also told us that we should look closely at the language used from those two characters, especially in the fight scene and in the opening scene.
Remember I am looking for Pride and Honor.
So does anyone have any GOOD ideas that can get me on a good roll with some valuable insight?
My new CA question is:
How does Shakespeare show pride and honor through one or two of the main characters (but we are told to focus on Mercutio and Bonvolio)
So, I watched the R+J Bas film and, yes it was good. Enjoyed it, didn't pick at it too much because I will watch it again for analysis.
Looking now for alternate adaptations, perhaps even theater shows on youtube.
Our teacher has also told us that we should look closely at the language used from those two characters, especially in the fight scene and in the opening scene.
Remember I am looking for Pride and Honor.
So does anyone have any GOOD ideas that can get me on a good roll with some valuable insight?
Scroll to see replies
No idea mate, I've forgotten all the Shakespeare I read before.
From my recollection as far as getting good marks on these sorts of questions there are key points in the scenarios that you need to pick up on - it's not like you just arbitrarily come up with a good argument and make it persuasive, rather it's more objective than that. I don't remember them though so not much use to you here :L
From my recollection as far as getting good marks on these sorts of questions there are key points in the scenarios that you need to pick up on - it's not like you just arbitrarily come up with a good argument and make it persuasive, rather it's more objective than that. I don't remember them though so not much use to you here :L
Original post by TorpidPhil
No idea mate, I've forgotten all the Shakespeare I read before.
From my recollection as far as getting good marks on these sorts of questions there are key points in the scenarios that you need to pick up on - it's not like you just arbitrarily come up with a good argument and make it persuasive, rather it's more objective than that. I don't remember them though so not much use to you here :L
From my recollection as far as getting good marks on these sorts of questions there are key points in the scenarios that you need to pick up on - it's not like you just arbitrarily come up with a good argument and make it persuasive, rather it's more objective than that. I don't remember them though so not much use to you here :L
No problem, Thanks for taking a look.
I may look into analytic philosophy , having a harmony of science and philosophy is my ideal of a perfect brain.
Original post by redsoules
No problem, Thanks for taking a look.
I may look into analytic philosophy , having a harmony of science and philosophy is my ideal of a perfect brain.
I may look into analytic philosophy , having a harmony of science and philosophy is my ideal of a perfect brain.
Right? I think so too. It's the ultimate intellectual pursuit
Very scientific and very mathematical. We learnt how to do set theory proofs last semester. Spent most of last year studying meta-physics, basic logic (propositional calculus) and the philosophy of science. Spending this year doing a lot more economics and linguistics/phil of lang.
Original post by TorpidPhil
Right? I think so too. It's the ultimate intellectual pursuit
Very scientific and very mathematical. We learnt how to do set theory proofs last semester. Spent most of last year studying meta-physics, basic logic (propositional calculus) and the philosophy of science. Spending this year doing a lot more economics and linguistics/phil of lang.
Very scientific and very mathematical. We learnt how to do set theory proofs last semester. Spent most of last year studying meta-physics, basic logic (propositional calculus) and the philosophy of science. Spending this year doing a lot more economics and linguistics/phil of lang.
A wise man once told me to withhold my whim but excel my wisdom.
That man was me.
It's been a while since I read the play, but doesn't Mercutio say"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission!' at one point? And then picks a fight with Tybalt. That shows his misplaced honour turning into life-threatening pride. When he dies, he makes a joke of it - "Ay, ay, a scratch, a scratch... ask for me tomorrow and you shall find me a grave man' - he can't admit defeat (grave being a pun as it means both 'serious' and the place you are put when you die.) His reaction to being called a villain is violence in order to protect his 'honour'. What he views as honour, we see as pride, and it results in death.
I can't think of anything for Benvolio... he is the ultimate good guy, his name is similar to 'benevolent' so I assume both his name and that word come from the same root.
You might be better off looking at Tybalt for pride and honour.
I can't think of anything for Benvolio... he is the ultimate good guy, his name is similar to 'benevolent' so I assume both his name and that word come from the same root.
You might be better off looking at Tybalt for pride and honour.
Original post by LannaBanana
It's been a while since I read the play, but doesn't Mercutio say"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission!' at one point? And then picks a fight with Tybalt. That shows his misplaced honour turning into life-threatening pride. When he dies, he makes a joke of it - "Ay, ay, a scratch, a scratch... ask for me tomorrow and you shall find me a grave man' - he can't admit defeat (grave being a pun as it means both 'serious' and the place you are put when you die.) His reaction to being called a villain is violence in order to protect his 'honour'. What he views as honour, we see as pride, and it results in death.
I can't think of anything for Benvolio... he is the ultimate good guy, his name is similar to 'benevolent' so I assume both his name and that word come from the same root.
You might be better off looking at Tybalt for pride and honour.
I can't think of anything for Benvolio... he is the ultimate good guy, his name is similar to 'benevolent' so I assume both his name and that word come from the same root.
You might be better off looking at Tybalt for pride and honour.
What a grand answer.
Where did you learn these words of Shakespeare? What those phrases mean?
I think you may very well be correct with benevolent, nice observation.
Unfortunately, Our teacher has specifically asked us to do those two Characters, otherwise I would do Tybalt, There is much for him.
Original post by redsoules
What a grand answer.
Where did you learn these words of Shakespeare? What those phrases mean?
I think you may very well be correct with benevolent, nice observation.
Unfortunately, Our teacher has specifically asked us to do those two Characters, otherwise I would do Tybalt, There is much for him.
Where did you learn these words of Shakespeare? What those phrases mean?
I think you may very well be correct with benevolent, nice observation.
Unfortunately, Our teacher has specifically asked us to do those two Characters, otherwise I would do Tybalt, There is much for him.
Which phrases exactly? The language is relatively easy when you get into the swing of it! Unfortunately, it takes a few plays to get there, and most people doing it at school don't get the chance.
Original post by LannaBanana
Which phrases exactly? The language is relatively easy when you get into the swing of it! Unfortunately, it takes a few plays to get there, and most people doing it at school don't get the chance.
O calm, dishonourable, vile submission! < This one, Well I would say It is slightly confusing, your explanation is sound, but I think not easy if you hadn't told me.
ay, ay, a scratch, a scratch... ask for me tomorrow and you shall find me a grave man' < this one does seem more straight forward, but a nice interpretation you added.
Our teacher said we should focus very much so on the introduction scene with Benvolio and especially the fight scene and how the two act with Romeo.
I watched the Bas film and the zaffaresi film already this week to get a foundation in, now I must watch something else to cement these phrases for interpretation.
I very much need a high grade in order to get good grades at the end of the year.
I do have 5 weeks (4 weeks now) left to do this, come my CA I want to be extremely prepared.
Have you just watched the films or have you read the play? The films are only good for background, you really need to delve into the text.
What's a CA question by the way? I went to school in Scotland and even then it was a while ago now.
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission" - the only way I can see that being difficult is by the word 'submission', is that what you mean? It means compliance, surrender in this context. Like submitting to something.
What's a CA question by the way? I went to school in Scotland and even then it was a while ago now.
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission" - the only way I can see that being difficult is by the word 'submission', is that what you mean? It means compliance, surrender in this context. Like submitting to something.
Original post by LannaBanana
Have you just watched the films or have you read the play? The films are only good for background, you really need to delve into the text.
What's a CA question by the way? I went to school in Scotland and even then it was a while ago now.
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission" - the only way I can see that being difficult is by the word 'submission', is that what you mean? It means compliance, surrender in this context. Like submitting to something.
What's a CA question by the way? I went to school in Scotland and even then it was a while ago now.
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission" - the only way I can see that being difficult is by the word 'submission', is that what you mean? It means compliance, surrender in this context. Like submitting to something.
EDIT: Just realised CA probably means critical analysis haha!
Original post by LannaBanana
Have you just watched the films or have you read the play? The films are only good for background, you really need to delve into the text.
What's a CA question by the way? I went to school in Scotland and even then it was a while ago now.
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission" - the only way I can see that being difficult is by the word 'submission', is that what you mean? It means compliance, surrender in this context. Like submitting to something.
What's a CA question by the way? I went to school in Scotland and even then it was a while ago now.
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission" - the only way I can see that being difficult is by the word 'submission', is that what you mean? It means compliance, surrender in this context. Like submitting to something.
Well, you interpreted that piece of text to say how it is misplaced honor, I find that quite well put.
I have watched them films yes, the Bas one on Tuesday and the Zaffaresi Last night.
I dont actually have the whole text, I think I only have the texts with them two characters (or one and not the other at times like the intro) so like Act 3 scene 1 etc..
What do i mean by the text? Well, The example i'll give is the prologue. I found that quite challenging to paraphrase, kind of got it but it was not really easy and took probably 15-20 minutes?
The CA question is :
How does Shakespeare show Pride and Honor in one or two of his main characters in R+J (however we are to write about BV and MER)
By text, I mean the play. Or whatever portions of the play you've been asked to read.
I just flicked through my copy. This stood out to me:
TYBALT: Turn thee, Benvolio, and look upon thy death.
BENVOLIO: I do but keep the peace. Put up thy sword,
Or manage it to part these men with me.
TYBALT: What, drawn and talk of peace? I hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee.
Have at thee coward.
They fight.
So Benvolio, is very honourable. In this scene, he is contrasted with Tybalt, who hates "peace, hell, all Montagues, and thee" (as in Benvolio). All Benvolio wants to do is "keep the peace". Unlike Tybalt, who uses his sword to fight Benvolio, Benvolio would use it to separate the fight between the serving men. His emphasis on peace shows him to be an honourable person, who values human life, even the life of his enemies. Contrasting him with Tybalt is effective because it shows that class/status isn't a factor - both men are powerful, but only Benvolio uses his power and influence for good. Tybalt talks about 'hate' and calls Benvolio a coward - he tries to antagonise Benvolio. This doesn't work on him, because he is sensible, and has true honour. It works on Mercutio though, because his honour can't compete with his pride.
A good quote to contrast Benvolio and Mercutio is:
BENVOLIO: By my head, here comes the Capulets.
MERCUTIO: By my heel, I care not.
Benvolio is swearing by his life, while Mercutio couldn't give a damn - he trivialises it by using his 'heel'. If you think about the difference in importance to your head and your feet, you get the picture...
BENVOLIO: [confrontation between themselves and Tybalt] ...Or else depart. Here all eyes gaze on us.
MERCUTIO: Men's eyes were made to look, and let them gaze.
I will not budge for no man's pleasure, I.
Shows how stubborn and prideful Mercutio is. He doesn't want to be seen as the one who walks away, He focuses on the 'eyes' and 'gaze' on him, which emphasises the importance of how he LOOKS to an outsider. He doesn't want to SEEM cowardly. Benvolio doesn't care because he knows he is not cowardly anyway, no matter how things look.
I just flicked through my copy. This stood out to me:
TYBALT: Turn thee, Benvolio, and look upon thy death.
BENVOLIO: I do but keep the peace. Put up thy sword,
Or manage it to part these men with me.
TYBALT: What, drawn and talk of peace? I hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee.
Have at thee coward.
They fight.
So Benvolio, is very honourable. In this scene, he is contrasted with Tybalt, who hates "peace, hell, all Montagues, and thee" (as in Benvolio). All Benvolio wants to do is "keep the peace". Unlike Tybalt, who uses his sword to fight Benvolio, Benvolio would use it to separate the fight between the serving men. His emphasis on peace shows him to be an honourable person, who values human life, even the life of his enemies. Contrasting him with Tybalt is effective because it shows that class/status isn't a factor - both men are powerful, but only Benvolio uses his power and influence for good. Tybalt talks about 'hate' and calls Benvolio a coward - he tries to antagonise Benvolio. This doesn't work on him, because he is sensible, and has true honour. It works on Mercutio though, because his honour can't compete with his pride.
A good quote to contrast Benvolio and Mercutio is:
BENVOLIO: By my head, here comes the Capulets.
MERCUTIO: By my heel, I care not.
Benvolio is swearing by his life, while Mercutio couldn't give a damn - he trivialises it by using his 'heel'. If you think about the difference in importance to your head and your feet, you get the picture...
BENVOLIO: [confrontation between themselves and Tybalt] ...Or else depart. Here all eyes gaze on us.
MERCUTIO: Men's eyes were made to look, and let them gaze.
I will not budge for no man's pleasure, I.
Shows how stubborn and prideful Mercutio is. He doesn't want to be seen as the one who walks away, He focuses on the 'eyes' and 'gaze' on him, which emphasises the importance of how he LOOKS to an outsider. He doesn't want to SEEM cowardly. Benvolio doesn't care because he knows he is not cowardly anyway, no matter how things look.
Original post by LannaBanana
By text, I mean the play. Or whatever portions of the play you've been asked to read.
I just flicked through my copy. This stood out to me:
TYBALT: Turn thee, Benvolio, and look upon thy death.
BENVOLIO: I do but keep the peace. Put up thy sword,
Or manage it to part these men with me.
TYBALT: What, drawn and talk of peace? I hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee.
Have at thee coward.
They fight.
So Benvolio, is very honourable. In this scene, he is contrasted with Tybalt, who hates "peace, hell, all Montagues, and thee" (as in Benvolio). All Benvolio wants to do is "keep the peace". Unlike Tybalt, who uses his sword to fight Benvolio, Benvolio would use it to separate the fight between the serving men. His emphasis on peace shows him to be an honourable person, who values human life, even the life of his enemies. Contrasting him with Tybalt is effective because it shows that class/status isn't a factor - both men are powerful, but only Benvolio uses his power and influence for good. Tybalt talks about 'hate' and calls Benvolio a coward - he tries to antagonise Benvolio. This doesn't work on him, because he is sensible, and has true honour. It works on Mercutio though, because his honour can't compete with his pride.
A good quote to contrast Benvolio and Mercutio is:
BENVOLIO: By my head, here comes the Capulets.
MERCUTIO: By my heel, I care not.
Benvolio is swearing by his life, while Mercutio couldn't give a damn - he trivialises it by using his 'heel'. If you think about the difference in importance to your head and your feet, you get the picture...
BENVOLIO: [confrontation between themselves and Tybalt] ...Or else depart. Here all eyes gaze on us.
MERCUTIO: Men's eyes were made to look, and let them gaze.
I will not budge for no man's pleasure, I.
Shows how stubborn and prideful Mercutio is. He doesn't want to be seen as the one who walks away, He focuses on the 'eyes' and 'gaze' on him, which emphasises the importance of how he LOOKS to an outsider. He doesn't want to SEEM cowardly. Benvolio doesn't care because he knows he is not cowardly anyway, no matter how things look.
I just flicked through my copy. This stood out to me:
TYBALT: Turn thee, Benvolio, and look upon thy death.
BENVOLIO: I do but keep the peace. Put up thy sword,
Or manage it to part these men with me.
TYBALT: What, drawn and talk of peace? I hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee.
Have at thee coward.
They fight.
So Benvolio, is very honourable. In this scene, he is contrasted with Tybalt, who hates "peace, hell, all Montagues, and thee" (as in Benvolio). All Benvolio wants to do is "keep the peace". Unlike Tybalt, who uses his sword to fight Benvolio, Benvolio would use it to separate the fight between the serving men. His emphasis on peace shows him to be an honourable person, who values human life, even the life of his enemies. Contrasting him with Tybalt is effective because it shows that class/status isn't a factor - both men are powerful, but only Benvolio uses his power and influence for good. Tybalt talks about 'hate' and calls Benvolio a coward - he tries to antagonise Benvolio. This doesn't work on him, because he is sensible, and has true honour. It works on Mercutio though, because his honour can't compete with his pride.
A good quote to contrast Benvolio and Mercutio is:
BENVOLIO: By my head, here comes the Capulets.
MERCUTIO: By my heel, I care not.
Benvolio is swearing by his life, while Mercutio couldn't give a damn - he trivialises it by using his 'heel'. If you think about the difference in importance to your head and your feet, you get the picture...
BENVOLIO: [confrontation between themselves and Tybalt] ...Or else depart. Here all eyes gaze on us.
MERCUTIO: Men's eyes were made to look, and let them gaze.
I will not budge for no man's pleasure, I.
Shows how stubborn and prideful Mercutio is. He doesn't want to be seen as the one who walks away, He focuses on the 'eyes' and 'gaze' on him, which emphasises the importance of how he LOOKS to an outsider. He doesn't want to SEEM cowardly. Benvolio doesn't care because he knows he is not cowardly anyway, no matter how things look.
Bravo, I like everything you said. It kind of has stunned me a bit actually because now I know not what to right? I mean... saying I could possibly paraphrase what you said may be quite nasty?
Still find this slightly confusing >BENVOLIO: I do but keep the peace. Put up thy sword,
Or manage it to part these men with me.
I do BUT keep the peace? (I thought that would have meant I do anything but keep peace)
Put up thy sword - Thy meaning My?
Or manage it to part these men with me - Not sure what that would mean paraphrasing.
Again though, very nice writing you did there.
BENVOLIO: I do but keep the peace. Put up thy sword,
Or manage it to part these men with me.
I only want to keep the peace. Put down your sword
Or use it to make these two *******s quit their fighting.
You know, the Baz Luhrmann REALLY helps with understanding the language, because the actors make it obvious with their actions/tones how something is supposed to be said. Tbh, when I read it in my head, I imagine the actors from the film. For instance, Benvolio in the film, when he says those lines, his tone and look are almost pleading like "I'm just trying to help, can't you help too?!"
If you're stuck on figuring out what exactly it means, the film is hugely helpful. In most editions of the play today, there are copious notes to help you understand the archaic language. You're right about the 'but' implying that keeping the peace is what he's NOT trying to do. But you just have to get past stuff like that, and realise that it's a poetical (read: complicated) form of the way they spoke 400 years ago. Some of it (a lot of it...) doesn't really make sense by today's grammatical rules.
Or manage it to part these men with me.
I only want to keep the peace. Put down your sword
Or use it to make these two *******s quit their fighting.
You know, the Baz Luhrmann REALLY helps with understanding the language, because the actors make it obvious with their actions/tones how something is supposed to be said. Tbh, when I read it in my head, I imagine the actors from the film. For instance, Benvolio in the film, when he says those lines, his tone and look are almost pleading like "I'm just trying to help, can't you help too?!"
If you're stuck on figuring out what exactly it means, the film is hugely helpful. In most editions of the play today, there are copious notes to help you understand the archaic language. You're right about the 'but' implying that keeping the peace is what he's NOT trying to do. But you just have to get past stuff like that, and realise that it's a poetical (read: complicated) form of the way they spoke 400 years ago. Some of it (a lot of it...) doesn't really make sense by today's grammatical rules.
Btw, you can paraphrase what I'm saying, because I don't think I'm saying anything particularly groundbreaking. Obviously, I've only given a couple of examples, you probably need to find more to back up your points.
Original post by LannaBanana
Btw, you can paraphrase what I'm saying, because I don't think I'm saying anything particularly groundbreaking. Obviously, I've only given a couple of examples, you probably need to find more to back up your points.
This is true but also you have given me somewhere to start, so thank you there.
Considering I do have another 4 weeks until i go into the CA room and start my 1000 word essay, what would be your ideal planning strategy?
(Can I ask what you have in English for a bit of context?)
Clearly you have done R+J, so wondering, what did you get for that and with Hindsight, what would you have done to improve?
P.S - I got 36/40 on my last essay (for short stories, question was - To what extent does the writer(s) make us feel sympathy for one or more of the characters in the short stories - games at twilight and pieces of silver)
I asked my teacher what I needed to do in order to attain those last 4 marks. He replied "You just need to make your implications clearer, also, there is no such thing as a 40/40 (perfect) essay..." < I find this slightly controversial... But nevertheless.. I would like high marks.
I'm in Uni now! What year are you in? I actually did Romeo and Juliet for higher. That's where I remember most of this stuff from.
I don't really remember much about writing essays in high school anymore. But what I do for my classes is to make sure I know the source material really well, i.e. what quotes I'm going to use. Then I would think about how those quotes relate to the question - in your case, the ones I showed you, highlight the honour of Benvolio, and the honour AND pride in Mercutio. Compare the characters to each other. Analyse the language as far as you can [this is the close reading bit] - for example, Benvolio's emphasis on 'peace', the fact that he takes the Capulets arrival seriously 'by my head'.
Or you could even argue that Mercutio's honour IS ONLY pride. He thinks he's fighting for the honour of his house, but it's his personal pride that makes the decisions.
I don't really remember much about writing essays in high school anymore. But what I do for my classes is to make sure I know the source material really well, i.e. what quotes I'm going to use. Then I would think about how those quotes relate to the question - in your case, the ones I showed you, highlight the honour of Benvolio, and the honour AND pride in Mercutio. Compare the characters to each other. Analyse the language as far as you can [this is the close reading bit] - for example, Benvolio's emphasis on 'peace', the fact that he takes the Capulets arrival seriously 'by my head'.
Or you could even argue that Mercutio's honour IS ONLY pride. He thinks he's fighting for the honour of his house, but it's his personal pride that makes the decisions.
Original post by LannaBanana
I'm in Uni now! What year are you in? I actually did Romeo and Juliet for higher. That's where I remember most of this stuff from.
I don't really remember much about writing essays in high school anymore. But what I do for my classes is to make sure I know the source material really well, i.e. what quotes I'm going to use. Then I would think about how those quotes relate to the question - in your case, the ones I showed you, highlight the honour of Benvolio, and the honour AND pride in Mercutio. Compare the characters to each other. Analyse the language as far as you can [this is the close reading bit] - for example, Benvolio's emphasis on 'peace', the fact that he takes the Capulets arrival seriously 'by my head'.
Or you could even argue that Mercutio's honour IS ONLY pride. He thinks he's fighting for the honour of his house, but it's his personal pride that makes the decisions.
I don't really remember much about writing essays in high school anymore. But what I do for my classes is to make sure I know the source material really well, i.e. what quotes I'm going to use. Then I would think about how those quotes relate to the question - in your case, the ones I showed you, highlight the honour of Benvolio, and the honour AND pride in Mercutio. Compare the characters to each other. Analyse the language as far as you can [this is the close reading bit] - for example, Benvolio's emphasis on 'peace', the fact that he takes the Capulets arrival seriously 'by my head'.
Or you could even argue that Mercutio's honour IS ONLY pride. He thinks he's fighting for the honour of his house, but it's his personal pride that makes the decisions.
I am in college doing a GCSE english and math course (I think they call this is resit, I left School almost 7 years ago). So, I would like to aim for as good a grade I can.
The close reading may be something that I need to work on. Analysis on language also, this is probably not so easy.
I think the structure of an essay (I do not mean the basic structure e.g. Intro, Main A, B, C ...) I mean structure in a 'chronological' sort of way, how I phrase each point - e.g. One way Shakespeare shows us pride in Mercutio is through the use of ? ? ? ?... Language? Imagery?
Bits and pieces like this (IMO) could be the things I need to fine-tune.
Ah okay! We are probably around the same age then. I would suggest you get all the points you want to make together, and THEN think about the structure. The essay will flow better that way. How many words does the essay need to be?
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