A rant about STEM v the rest
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Original post by TheNote
"hey guys, everyone knows that once we find out how the universe was created it will totally not lead to any significant discoveries that will help society"
Idiot, seriously how can you not think further than your nose in terms of our species future, knowing how things worked millions of years in the past help us understand the fundamentals of today and lead to further advancements in fields such as space travel and will contribute down the line to many fields. Science has a very profitable future, however the humanities do not.
Humanities have a place but it isn't on the same tier as STEM
Idiot, seriously how can you not think further than your nose in terms of our species future, knowing how things worked millions of years in the past help us understand the fundamentals of today and lead to further advancements in fields such as space travel and will contribute down the line to many fields. Science has a very profitable future, however the humanities do not.
Humanities have a place but it isn't on the same tier as STEM
Erm, I don't see how knowing 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 or so seconds earlier than we do will make such a difference. Don't pretend that these subjects are done for anything other than the noble pursuit of human knowledge.
Unless you hold that by know more facts about life changes the way we as humans see ourselves, ie like the discovery of evolution. In which case you'd have made my case for the humanities for me. I think discovering whether there's a God, whether we have free will, finding how the mathematical and logic languages we use can fully describe the world (they currently don't seem to), etc have a huge bearing on our view of humanities' place in the world, just like discovering once and for all how the universe started would. And that's just to take examples from one subject (philosophy).
Original post by The Wavefunction
x
STEM master race
Hey! Without us non-stem students, your job markets would be even more saturated.
Lol'd, top rustle.
STEM master race reporting.
STEM master race reporting.
Original post by The Wavefunction
Nothing. Just venting frustration at the fact I'm already up to my neck in work and my housemates having to do sweet FA
I have a mixed reaction to this.
Firstly, as someone thoroughly interested in STEM, this worries me because I don't like large workloads but in the end it will be better than taking a humanity because I can't write essays for **** ;p
Secondly. I find it amusing how you didn't know about this before...
Thirdly, your university chose you because it believed you had the passion, dedication and commitment to push through the workload. In the end, your degree will make you highly employable, and tbh the fact that you are whining is amusing because it shows the university made a wrong choice when admitting their students.
Original post by Ben199
Having just graduated with a physics Bsc from an upper Russell group (just under that 1st class but only because I hardly worked in the third year, having burned out - I also have just under 600 UCAS points with AAAA in A Levels Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Chemistry), Id like to offer my 2 cents here.
Your choice of study definitely does matter but so does your sociability. Your choice of study does matter because as I discovered the hard way, even within STEM, employment prospects are, ceteris paribus, hardly equal. I lost count of the many engineering and software jobs I applied to in the third year (with a predicted 1st class) and I couldn't even make it past the filters / HR. Got 3 interviews for an engineering job and two software consulting jobs, and got rejected because I lacked that specific piece of paper with engineering or computer science written on it, but also because I lacked the skills they were looking for.
At the end of the day, employers do not care about whether you can solve the three-dimensional Schrodinger equation for a hydrogenic atom, or whether you can compute the Riemann tensor of a conformally-flat metric. The only thing this demonstrates to them is that you have some capacity for mathematical and abstract thought. The problem for physicists is that there are many engineering and computer science graduates who similarly have such aptitude for maths/abstraction as us, except they also acquired all the requisite knowledge and useful skills involved the fields of engineering and computer science. Why would they take the risk - in fact, waste their money and time - and train you when they could simply hire those people?
All of those platitudes about the supposed 'versatility' of pure science degrees are lies. And I am the tip of the iceberg. Consider this physics PhD who could only find work in a cell centre.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304096/Graduate-physics-PhD-31-fell-death-block-flats-taking-job-centre-qualified-for.html
If you read Physicsforums.com, you will find maths and physics PhDs posting there who have been unemployed or underemployed (e.g. physicists working as bartenders, pizza delivery men etc) for significant periods of time (I will not but can name posters on there).
The continued specialization of the 'applied science' industry (engineering and IT) means that that even within STEM, your choice of study is becoming legitimately subject to discrimination. Just because you have studied physics or maths no longer means you have a decent shot in the engineering and IT industries anymore - yes, you can still enter the industries but only if you acquire the requisite skills to become competitive on your own, and your pure science background does not directly help you in this endeavour whatsoever.
On the other hand, a degree is also a piece of paper in the end. I personally suffer from social anxiety disorder (check out some of my past posts for more detail on the problems this has caused me) which means a significant proportion of the employment sector is simply out of the question for me. Sociability is in fact important, those business, political science etc graduates who found jobs in sales, marketing and other roles do in fact deserve it insofar as they are apt for those jobs (and academic ability is not the main criteria there). No matter how hard I work, someone like me can never become competent in certain roles (requiring a lot of sociability and there are a lot of them).
I've said it before here - I still love physics but it is a bittersweet feeling because I paid exorbitant costs - a huge £30k+ debt and 3 years of my life - only to reap such things as 'intellectual satisfaction' (which I could have frankly attained on my own by studying physics as a hobby anyway).
I understand that the climate of the economy plays a big role in my troubles but my advice to pure science aspirants is now that the ubiquitous platitude they all tell you "study / do a degree in what you love most" is not very good advice.
The reality is that it would be better to make a trade-off between passion and career prospects. If you like maths and physics, go for engineering or computer science. If you like maths but don't like physics, consider quantitative areas of finance such as economics, accountancy and actuarial science. If you like chemistry and biology and if you can, consider medicine, pharmacy or optometry.
Your choice of study definitely does matter but so does your sociability. Your choice of study does matter because as I discovered the hard way, even within STEM, employment prospects are, ceteris paribus, hardly equal. I lost count of the many engineering and software jobs I applied to in the third year (with a predicted 1st class) and I couldn't even make it past the filters / HR. Got 3 interviews for an engineering job and two software consulting jobs, and got rejected because I lacked that specific piece of paper with engineering or computer science written on it, but also because I lacked the skills they were looking for.
At the end of the day, employers do not care about whether you can solve the three-dimensional Schrodinger equation for a hydrogenic atom, or whether you can compute the Riemann tensor of a conformally-flat metric. The only thing this demonstrates to them is that you have some capacity for mathematical and abstract thought. The problem for physicists is that there are many engineering and computer science graduates who similarly have such aptitude for maths/abstraction as us, except they also acquired all the requisite knowledge and useful skills involved the fields of engineering and computer science. Why would they take the risk - in fact, waste their money and time - and train you when they could simply hire those people?
All of those platitudes about the supposed 'versatility' of pure science degrees are lies. And I am the tip of the iceberg. Consider this physics PhD who could only find work in a cell centre.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304096/Graduate-physics-PhD-31-fell-death-block-flats-taking-job-centre-qualified-for.html
If you read Physicsforums.com, you will find maths and physics PhDs posting there who have been unemployed or underemployed (e.g. physicists working as bartenders, pizza delivery men etc) for significant periods of time (I will not but can name posters on there).
The continued specialization of the 'applied science' industry (engineering and IT) means that that even within STEM, your choice of study is becoming legitimately subject to discrimination. Just because you have studied physics or maths no longer means you have a decent shot in the engineering and IT industries anymore - yes, you can still enter the industries but only if you acquire the requisite skills to become competitive on your own, and your pure science background does not directly help you in this endeavour whatsoever.
On the other hand, a degree is also a piece of paper in the end. I personally suffer from social anxiety disorder (check out some of my past posts for more detail on the problems this has caused me) which means a significant proportion of the employment sector is simply out of the question for me. Sociability is in fact important, those business, political science etc graduates who found jobs in sales, marketing and other roles do in fact deserve it insofar as they are apt for those jobs (and academic ability is not the main criteria there). No matter how hard I work, someone like me can never become competent in certain roles (requiring a lot of sociability and there are a lot of them).
I've said it before here - I still love physics but it is a bittersweet feeling because I paid exorbitant costs - a huge £30k+ debt and 3 years of my life - only to reap such things as 'intellectual satisfaction' (which I could have frankly attained on my own by studying physics as a hobby anyway).
I understand that the climate of the economy plays a big role in my troubles but my advice to pure science aspirants is now that the ubiquitous platitude they all tell you "study / do a degree in what you love most" is not very good advice.
The reality is that it would be better to make a trade-off between passion and career prospects. If you like maths and physics, go for engineering or computer science. If you like maths but don't like physics, consider quantitative areas of finance such as economics, accountancy and actuarial science. If you like chemistry and biology and if you can, consider medicine, pharmacy or optometry.
This here is wisdom in the finest. I used to be confused as to why Cambridge university, for example, offered no pure science degrees but instead Natural Sciences (within which are sub-fields like Earth Sciences, Physical Sciences, Biological Sciences... but none of them are pure physics or maths). As someone who also loves physics but is much younger, this helped shift my perspective from perhaps optimistic to more realistic. Like you said, I believe success is actually mainly to do with social skills. If someone is highly social, chances are they will never be in a bad state (unless they messed up their life choices a lot...) because they can go into banking, finance, business, law... I would have chosen law if I had adequate social skills but I'm that kid who sits at the back and never says anything and despises all the popular kids so those are not options xD I have, alas, been at such a low that I considered graphics design as a future career... yep, great job prospects right there
From someone planning on doing history.
Is STEM harder? Almost definitely yea.
Does STEM require more work to reach the same standard? Again, most likely yes.
Are the employment prospects better for STEM? Definitely.
Is any of the above information going to convince me to choose a career path that I wouldn't enjoy? Nope.
I'd never try and argue that I have it, or will have it, harder than students doing STEM. My A Levels are soft and my degree probably won't take as much effort as those doing Maths, or Engineering, or whatever. However, those subjects aren't for me: I'm not bright enough and I'd hate every second.
I think those doing STEM subjects should therefore take pride in the fact that they're seeking careers in the most challenging, time-consuming areas of study. There's nothing wrong with that. But fundamentally, it isn't going to change my mind about doing a degree in the humanities, nor will it change anyone else's.
Whether I'll still be saying that from behind the Mcdonald's counter in 4 years time is another matter lol.
Is STEM harder? Almost definitely yea.
Does STEM require more work to reach the same standard? Again, most likely yes.
Are the employment prospects better for STEM? Definitely.
Is any of the above information going to convince me to choose a career path that I wouldn't enjoy? Nope.
I'd never try and argue that I have it, or will have it, harder than students doing STEM. My A Levels are soft and my degree probably won't take as much effort as those doing Maths, or Engineering, or whatever. However, those subjects aren't for me: I'm not bright enough and I'd hate every second.
I think those doing STEM subjects should therefore take pride in the fact that they're seeking careers in the most challenging, time-consuming areas of study. There's nothing wrong with that. But fundamentally, it isn't going to change my mind about doing a degree in the humanities, nor will it change anyone else's.
Whether I'll still be saying that from behind the Mcdonald's counter in 4 years time is another matter lol.
Original post by lostpenny
I have a mixed reaction to this.
Firstly, as someone thoroughly interested in STEM, this worries me because I don't like large workloads but in the end it will be better than taking a humanity because I can't write essays for **** ;p
Secondly. I find it amusing how you didn't know about this before...
Thirdly, your university chose you because it believed you had the passion, dedication and commitment to push through the workload. In the end, your degree will make you highly employable, and tbh the fact that you are whining is amusing because it shows the university made a wrong choice when admitting their students.
Firstly, as someone thoroughly interested in STEM, this worries me because I don't like large workloads but in the end it will be better than taking a humanity because I can't write essays for **** ;p
Secondly. I find it amusing how you didn't know about this before...
Thirdly, your university chose you because it believed you had the passion, dedication and commitment to push through the workload. In the end, your degree will make you highly employable, and tbh the fact that you are whining is amusing because it shows the university made a wrong choice when admitting their students.
The way you've written this, I imagine you haven't started your degree yet, so here's a few things.
- If you do a STEM degree, you will have a high workload, especially in years 2 and 3. You'll have a high workload no matter what degree you do, some just more than others.
- Of course I knew a chemistry degree would be challenging.
- Universities choose you so they can make money, for their benefit, not for the reasons you stated.
- Everyone will whine about their degree, I'm yet to meet a student who hasn't. Some will do it on a forum, some will cry down the phone to their parents.
Firstly I'd like to point out how pointless this post but I'm also gonna explain where I stand on the matter.
Throughout school I have always done better at STEM subjects because for me they are easier as it requires no deep understanding or lateral thinking. If your memory is good, STEM subjects are so easy u just read **** and blurt your knowledge back out in a question that is slightly different or has different wording to what u have practiced in class.
I recieved 4 A's at AS level in maths, chem, physics (dropped after AS) and geography and will be studying geography at uni - focusing on the social 'art' side, not physical geography. I feel that although I am more than capable in the sciences, these aren't the 'clever' subjects contrary to popular belief. I find my political, cultural and social studies in human geography far more challenging and worthwhile as they offer a deeper perspective of the world that we live in.
I obviously understand that if u want to study STEM subjects at uni thats so cool 100% do it it'll be so interesting but I just dont understand how STEM subjects are seen as harder than non-STEM ones or why STEM students are supposedly more clever???
Throughout school I have always done better at STEM subjects because for me they are easier as it requires no deep understanding or lateral thinking. If your memory is good, STEM subjects are so easy u just read **** and blurt your knowledge back out in a question that is slightly different or has different wording to what u have practiced in class.
I recieved 4 A's at AS level in maths, chem, physics (dropped after AS) and geography and will be studying geography at uni - focusing on the social 'art' side, not physical geography. I feel that although I am more than capable in the sciences, these aren't the 'clever' subjects contrary to popular belief. I find my political, cultural and social studies in human geography far more challenging and worthwhile as they offer a deeper perspective of the world that we live in.
I obviously understand that if u want to study STEM subjects at uni thats so cool 100% do it it'll be so interesting but I just dont understand how STEM subjects are seen as harder than non-STEM ones or why STEM students are supposedly more clever???
Original post by The Wavefunction
The way you've written this, I imagine you haven't started your degree yet, so here's a few things.
- If you do a STEM degree, you will have a high workload, especially in years 2 and 3. You'll have a high workload no matter what degree you do, some just more than others.
- Of course I knew a chemistry degree would be challenging.
- Universities choose you so they can make money, for their benefit, not for the reasons you stated.
- Everyone will whine about their degree, I'm yet to meet a student who hasn't. Some will do it on a forum, some will cry down the phone to their parents.
- If you do a STEM degree, you will have a high workload, especially in years 2 and 3. You'll have a high workload no matter what degree you do, some just more than others.
- Of course I knew a chemistry degree would be challenging.
- Universities choose you so they can make money, for their benefit, not for the reasons you stated.
- Everyone will whine about their degree, I'm yet to meet a student who hasn't. Some will do it on a forum, some will cry down the phone to their parents.
True. they do want the money too. But then again, every possible candidate has the same price tag attached to their heads no? They want a price tag with the worth to study at wherever they are at, so once they graduate and become successful (in rare cases) their university will gain prestige and donations... they look for people who will be successful in their field in the future
Yea okay everyone whines, but it's not the fault of the English undergrads that you have more work to do ;p
The only people who actually care about whether or not STEM degrees are better/harder than non-STEM degrees, seem to be a lot of people here on TSR. The rest of the world could not care at all.
Personally, I don't know why people care so much. I'm not doing a STEM subject, nor do I care what people think of the course I am doing. I'm happy with it and I know where I can go with it. I place more value on actually living my life the way I want to live it, than doing degrees because other people perceive them to be harder or more reputable than non-STEM degrees and being miserable.
Anyway, people are going to do what they want and it's not really fair to people down because of their choices. Everyone has their own preferences and it's not anyone's business to judge them because of decisions they've made.
Personally, I don't know why people care so much. I'm not doing a STEM subject, nor do I care what people think of the course I am doing. I'm happy with it and I know where I can go with it. I place more value on actually living my life the way I want to live it, than doing degrees because other people perceive them to be harder or more reputable than non-STEM degrees and being miserable.
Anyway, people are going to do what they want and it's not really fair to people down because of their choices. Everyone has their own preferences and it's not anyone's business to judge them because of decisions they've made.
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